MetalHead's review of Terminator Salvation-- MUST READ for hardcore Terminator fans

MetalHead's review of Terminator Salvation-- MUST READ for hardcore Terminator fans

From a die-hard fan who understands the concepts and has followed the story religiously for 25 years.

Review Opinion
By MetalHead - May 24, 2009 11:05 AM EST
Filed Under: Terminator

**CAUTION: SPOILERS**

TheHawk talked me into doing a review, so here goes. I’m gonna do this in 2 parts. The first will be done for the casual movie-goer who doesn’t know much background on the film other than watching the previous films once or twice—if at all, and the second will be for the hardcore fans.

Ok, so I went to see this movie twice now (and counting…) and for starters I can honestly say that doing so made a huge difference. I also allowed some time between seeing the movie and writing a review so that I could let my thoughts settle and to try to make sure that my opinion wasn’t a biased one. For those who have read my opinions on Terminator stuff in the past, you know that I’m not a Terminator apologist who follows blindly and enjoys anything they put out, regardless of its quality or if it makes sense. And yes, I HATED "Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines," not only because it was too cheesy and basically a watered-down version of the first two films, but also because there were several contradictions in the film which created fatal flaws to the series, and actually wiped out the potential for any of the films to even be possible. I’ll also say that "The Terminator" was absolutely brilliant to me (and was clearly influenced by the X-Men story “Days of Future Past"), and "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" is my all-time favorite movie. So for those who haven’t read anything I’ve ever posted before, you now have a little background on me and know a little of where I’m coming from with this.


As far as the casual fan/movie goer goes, I’ll say that if you know little of the series and are just looking to see a good action flick, this definitely gives you that. I somewhat wish that this was my first exposure to the "Terminator" series because if I were to watch this first I would definitely be sucked in, and if I were to watch the first movie and then the second from there I would be even more pleased with both of those films as well as this one. For starters, there isn’t a dull moment in this movie. It is just non-stop from start to finish. And not meaning non-stop action, but there aren’t any points where you can take a breather. You are basically drawn in from the opening scene and you don’t get a second to take your mind off the movie until the credits roll.

As for the action… there is more than its fair share. And it’s not overwhelming action, either. There’s actually not that much chaos in the action scenes, which is often a problem in movies where there are huge battles, making it easy to lose your concentration on the film. They did a good job focusing on the significant aspects of the fight scenes. The CGI is great, but if you’re like me then you’d prefer even more puppets and almost zero CGI-ed Terminators—but the majority of the Terminators are actually puppets and machines, in its defense.

As for one computer-generated image in particular, there is a scene which will undoubtedly be an all-time classic "Terminator" moment: when a fresh-off-the-press T-800 comes through a door to battle John Connor in Skynet’s facility, the camera pans up from its feet to its head with the trademark Terminator “dun-dun, dun, dun-dun” playing, we see that a CGI-ed Arnold Schwarzennegger’s face and head (created from unused footage from the first film) has been put onto the body of Roland Kickinger, fellow Austrian and "See Arnold Run" star in the made-for-TV movie about the story of Arnold Schwarzenegger’s life. To me, this scene could not have been done more perfectly. While watching the first time, I was anxious to see how they’d incorporate the top-secret Arnold cameo. While watching the second time, I couldn’t wait to see the scene again as it was on my mind the entire time. This scene will likely be the definitive scene that comes to mind in the future when we look back on this movie. John Connor, face to face with the same model who tried to kill his mother, who successfully killed his father, who protected him as a child and who now looks to terminate him. Classic.

As for the rest of the CGI, the HKs (Hunter-Killers) and Transports were great and the CGI seemed very smooth, the Mototerminators also seemed as though they were actually there, and the Harverster reminded me of something which Michael Bay would have created in "Transformers." I can’t say anything bad about this aspect of the film.

The casting was also great. There are those who say that Sam Worthington stole the show as Marcus Wright, a hybrid human/cyborg infiltration unit. To me, I disagree—ONLY because I think that both he and Bale performed their roles to the highest possible level and therefore I can’t say that one was better or worse than the other. Anton Yelchin was perfectly cast as a teenage Kyle Reese. He really did convey the feel that he held the same morals and beliefs as the Kyle Reese we all knew from 1984 did. And then there was Moon Bloodgood as Blair Williams. Gorgeous, hot and bad-ass. She definitely fills the void of an ass-kicking female left by Linda Hamilton as Sarah Connor. Don’t get me wrong—she doesn’t replace Linda/Sarah, but you can love Corvettes and Harley-Davidsons, you don’t have to love only one or the other.

Ok, that brings me to the end of the casual fan/movie-goers section. If you want a good, non-stop action flick that sucks you in from the opening scene and keeps you hooked ‘til the credits roll then this is definitely one for you. While making "T2," James Cameron said that a sequel, if done well, shouldn’t require the audience to see the previous movie to be able to understand it and enjoy it, and this movie definitely holds true to Cameron’s opinion on the concept. Oh, and it’s a must to see at the theater, too.


NOW, as for the hardcore fans…
Where to begin…? I guess I’ll start off with the shout-outs to the die-hard fans. There were plenty of those and these were definitely one of the best aspects of the movie—mainly because they seemed to connect it to the first 2 films where "T3" seemed like its own entity. Some highlights were Arnold being CGI-ed onto a T-800 (obviously), John’s “I’ll be back” line, Kyle’s first “come with me if you want to live,” John having the photo of Sarah which he gives Kyle in the future, Linda Hamilton’s (as Sarah Connor) narration on some tapes to John, John walking down the hall which Kyle walks down in his dream/flashback scene in "T1," John getting the scar which we see on his face at the beginning of "T2," GN’R’s “You Could Be Mine” being used by John to trap a Mototerminator, the Cyberdyne Systems logo at the top of Marcus Wright’s waiver… I’m sure I forgot one or two but the fact is that McG went out of his way to give us, the hardcore fans, these—things definitely to be excited about.

Ok, now to the setting. This is one area where I felt they did an EXCELLENT job. They without-a-doubt successfully created the future which I have been imagining for about 25 years now. If you read "Terminator Salvation: From the Ashes, the official movie prequel," you also saw this world described as they made it here. The scenery was great. The mood was there. The camps were almost a picture taken directly from my mind. The T-600s were as Kyle described them in "T1"—easy to spot, “not too bright” and slow (although I believe in that quote he was referring to the HKs, but you get the point). There were many questions answered without actually specifically saying, such as how the Resistance was so organized and what kind of equipment they had access to, etc. All in all, this was the future that Kyle told Sarah that he had come from.

One thing I enjoyed was that there wasn’t too much time wasted focusing on any one supporting character. There wasn’t much (or really any, actually) character development of Barnes, Blair or Kate, among others. Personally, though, I don’t care about their characters, or at least any more than they went into. It would have been unnecessary character development which would have taken attention away from the important aspects of the story.

We did see some new developments to the Skynet story with the debut of Marcus’s character and Dr. Serena Kogan’s character as it related to her role later in the film. While I’ll admit that there could be a fatal flaw hiding somewhere in there if I think about it long enough, at least there aren’t any glaring and blatantly obvious ones like "T3" had to the point that they made the movie unwatchable. I personally liked Marcus, but he didn’t exactly coincide with the current technology that Skynet supposedly has, although you could make the argument that he was developed but just not mass-produced. There is also another theory I have which suggests that maybe he is from the future. MAYBE. True, his body was seen in Skynet’s silo at the beginning of the film, but it could still be argued that he was sent there from the future already. I am looking forward to getting my hands on the DVD, not only to watch the deleted/alternate scenes, but to also be able to pause the movie and read the articles which Marcus reads on the screen at Skynet. I will say, though, that one of the highlights to me was that while they did introduce some new concepts, they didn’t do it in a way that went into too much detail. Doing it this way is definitely a plus because with time travel and a super-intelligent computer system involved, the slightest flaw in the story-telling could easily be found and therefore the less we know, the more believeable the story is and the less-likely it is to contradict itself (see "T3").

**Side note: there is much question as to why Skynet didn’t just kill Kyle while it had the chance when he is captured and by doing so, wipe out John’s existence. The solution is simple: Skynet knows that John MUST send Kyle to 1984 because Kyle’s existence there is essential to Skynet’s creation. Without Kyle going to 1984, Skynet can never exist since he and Sarah lead the T-800 to a factory where Sarah kills it… which just-so happens to be Cyberdyne Systems and this is how Cyberdyne gets its hands on the technology which is eventually used to create both Skynet and the Terminators. MAYBE McG’s original idea of having John die and having Marcus take John’s flesh and replace him applies here because if Skynet can replace John and still have him send Kyle back in time at the right date then it will have defeated John in their present (our future) while ensuring its creation in the past.**

All in all, if you’re a die-hard fan, you should be pleased with this. If you can understand the concept of time travel (or at least, the concept as it is told in this series), then it should make perfect sense to you. I’ll admit that my immediate reaction after seeing the midnight premier on Thursday morning was disappointment. This was a biased opinion because when I saw the movie and it wasn’t EXACTLY the way I thought it should have been, then disappointment was inevitable. But after taking some time to reflect and to see it for what it is, I began to appreciate it more and more. Then after seeing it for a second time Saturday night and being able to watch it, knowing what to expect, I definitely enjoyed it and it is becoming one of my personal favorites. They did a great job in not only honoring the works of the first two films, but also working around the disaster which "Terminator 3" created by making almost no reference to it at all. I can’t stress enough to the hardcore fans that if you weren’t pleased the first time, take some time to reflect and to see it for what it is—a different part of the story and a different time and world than the previous films—and then see it again, knowing what to expect and seeing that they probably did the best possible job which they could have of bringing us a new sequel to the "Terminator" series.


**UPDATE**
There were a couple things that I either didn't touch on the first time around or that I felt weren't quite emphasized enough.

First off, I wanted to give fair warning to the hardcore fans that at first watch, this movie doesn't have the same feel as the first two movies do. The music, which to me was just as important in the first two films as Arnold, Linda Hamilton, Eddie Furlong, Michael Biehn and Robert Patrick were, was not the same. When I think back on the first two films I can directly associate specific parts of the soundtrack with specific scenes. Now, if you are able to watch the movie knowing ahead of time that the movie has a different feel, it may help you to see it for what it is. Try not to ask yourself if it is better, equal to, or worse than the first two films, but instead watch it for what it is and try to enjoy it. If you compare it to the other movies the whole time (like I did my first viewing) it will ruin the movie for you.

The next thing I wanted to revisit was the setting. We usually only talk about things because they catch our attention in either an extremely positive or extremely negative way. However, sometimes things are so perfect that our minds don't even give them a second thought. This, to me, sums up the setting and scenery. There were two settings in particular that really impressed me and really helped to paint the picture when I think back on the film. One of these scenes has Marcus walking through the desert. Now what was a very simple effect to create actually did a great job of helping to illustrate the world in the year 2018, and the effect was Marcus looking down at the ground to see that below the desert sand actually lies the highway. It makes us realize that without humans upkeeping it, the roads, as well as the humans' existance, were just being washed away with the time. I saw that as a pretty good metaphor.

Another set that needed to be discussed was Skynet's facility. It didn't even occur to me until just a few moments ago that they nailed it EXACTLY the way I have imagined it since the first time I saw the first film. Every single aspect. Watch it again (or for the first time) and just try to notice what an excellent job they did to create that set. I can't stress enough how well that was done, as well as all of the other sets and sceneries. This was a pretty underrated aspect to the film, and yet the scenery was probably one of the main reasons as to why the film is as good as it is.

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sr95racer
sr95racer - 5/24/2009, 2:12 PM
I watched the movie yesterday .I don't know were i should place it in my list of terminator movies, maybe the second and T2 as the first .It is thumbs up !! I've seen some negative reviews but i don't know what people are expecting out of a Terminator movie after Judgment Day !
I totally agree with you ,people should watch it for what it is .
Whoever is confused about this movie should watch the previous ones first to refresh their memories and to know what this one is all about .
I would have preferred if John didn't need Marcus heart at the end .What a performance by Sam Worthington.
I think he should be the new protector of John Connor from now on or even better, he should have been the one chosen for the roll of John .
I like and i like it a lot !!!
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 2:40 PM
sr95racer,
You bring up an interesting point which I didn't touch on in regards to the ending. Considering that they had to re-write and re-shoot the entire last hour of the film within the last year due to the test audiences and fans absolutely hating the original ending, yes, the ending does seem a tiny bit rushed. I'm sure that it was McG's plan all along for Marcus Wright's human body parts to have some major impact on the story. Due to the negative reaction to the original idea (John being killed and having his flesh put on Marcus Wright's body) this was probably the next-best idea that they could come up with in that short amount of time given the fact that they had already wrote and filmed so much of the movie. It was a little cheesy, but considering that it wasn't the originally intended ending and that a compromise had to be reached and filmed ASAP, it could have ended up coming out a lot worse.
Macksimus
Macksimus - 5/24/2009, 4:17 PM
Great review metal.

For me it was different. The first time I saw the movie, I thought it was freaking awesome. However, after I started thinking about certain things I began to not like it as much as I did in the beginning. Although, I did clear some things up, whiched helped tremendously.

Here are my primary issues with the movie:

1.) the score was bad IMO; I just didn't like it all

2.) There was alot of cheesy dialogue that often times ruined the mood for me

3. There were some aspects to the story that were just too convenient; like John capturing a mototerminator, and John casually walking into Skynet, and Marcus and John getting to Skynet as fast as they did

4. McG said this was a war movie. Where was the war??? Where were all of the battle between the resistance and the machines??? I wanted to see more human vs. machine battles.

5. Finally, I don't like how Skynet knows the significance of John and KYle. They don't explain that in the movie, and I find that so frustrating. Hopefully that is not a plot hole, and they actually explain it in the next movie.

That being said, I really liked this movie. It does stand on its own very well, and I don't get all of the bad reviews.

I give it a 9/10.

...and I know my typing sucks. I can't see a damn thing. I'm typing in the dark LOL.
Macksimus
Macksimus - 5/24/2009, 4:23 PM
Oh yeah, the editing was horriblein theis movie. Scenes did not transition well at all.

...but the action scenes weresome of the bestI have EVER seen PERIOD. They were amazing.

My hat goes off to McG. I think he should direct the next one for sure. He just needs to edit better, and he needs to bet wome better writers. The dialogue...eeeeeehhhhhhh.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 6:21 PM
Ok Macksimus, you have some good points here. For starters, as I said before, I agree with you 100% that the score wasn't anything special. It didn't hurt the movie, but it sure didn't make it, either, like the scores for the first two films did.

As for the occasionally cheesy dialogue, yeah, I agree with that, too. But it was nothing that was bad enough to take me out of the movie.

Now one of your points that I definitely agree with is the fact that there were a lot of convenient coincidences. BUT what I'll say to that is if you noticed, they were all in the second hour of the film-- the hour that had to be re-written and re-filmed all within a year. I obviously can't say this for sure, but I'd be willing to be that the rushed re-writing had a lot to do with them. And trust me, those kinds of things-- in any movie other than a comedy-- do tend to annoy me. I also think that the re-writing and re-filming of so much of the movie had a lot to do with your issue with the editing.

I think that your question asking "where is the war?" could also have had SOME to do with this. To me, though, I think his statement may have been taken a bit out of context. The world is at war. I didn't take his quote as though he meant that there would be total chaos. I can see your disappointment with the movie if that was what you were led to believe, though.

Finally, I thought that Skynet's pursuit of Kyle and John, as usual, made the film exciting and interesting. Now as far as Skynet knowing Kyle's (and John's) significance goes, we know that it is POSSIBLE for Skynet to somehow know this information. In my opinion, I liked that they DIDN'T go into specifics because of this: IF they had specifically told us a theory, we could probably rip it to shreads. I kind of like how they leave it open for us, the true fans, to dispute over it. And let's face it-- the only way that we'd know for sure, OTHER THAN, like you put it, cheesy dialogue which would definitely have been forced in for the sole purpose of explaining to us, the audience, how Skynet knew, would be if John captured and reprogrammed a Terminator and got the information from it. And we do know that he WILL be doing that in the future...

But yeah, those of us with detailed knowledge of the films will always be able to find SOME flaws. At least we really have to dig with this one.
zephyr
zephyr - 5/24/2009, 7:02 PM
MetalHead,

I read your review and your posts on Ailwolf's review and I totally agree with you. You seem to have a much better understanding of the Terminator Universe.

However, I have just one problem with what you wrote. And just a heads up, I am not looking to start a fight. I just want a better understanding of the film.

So here goes: You said that Skynet did not kill Kyle Reese because they need him to go back in time and help create skynet. I am afraid I have to disagree with you. An important point in any time travel theory is that you cannot go back in time and create your own existence. Just like you cannot go to the past and kill yourself, otherwise you will not grow up and be able to jump into that time machine. So I think everyone should accept that time travel is a bit of a paradox.

Having said that, I believe that Skynet(in 2018) should NOT have been aware of Kyle Reese's importance. Yet they had him on their 'kill list' as #1.

I know some fanboys will argue that Kyle Reese helped create Skynet, but I believe the events that took place in 1984 only helped accelerate judgement day and not cause it. After all, Arnold said in T3 that judgement day was inevitable.

That was my main concern with this film.
Aiiwolf
Aiiwolf - 5/24/2009, 7:10 PM
@ MetalHead

Nice review, and nice points. I'll give you a thumbs up, because you wrote a long detailed essay-like review, and it shows your devotion and passion in the series. :)
I'm a Terminator Fan, but I think we have different views on certain things.

You know I wish the movie had more character development, or hey, better yet it was broken into 2 parts. Shit, why complain than. They would of had character development, they could of had a better script, built a foundation between characters, ADDED that TIT scene, uhhh, they could of done alot. But as the movie is as it is...Its decent. I never said it was bad, I gave it a 7/10.

I gave T1 = 10/10
...T2 = 9/10
T3 = 8/10
T4 = 7/10 [eh 7.5...waiting on DC to see if they made it better, and changed a few things]

I like what sr95racer @@@
...totally agree, I think Sam worthington as Conner would of been awesome...Whne they first casted Bale, I was a bit skeptical...but i'm a big Christian Bale fan..he did a good job. But Sam worthington would of been perfect, and now that i think about it Bale could of been a The good TERMINATOR...rople switch..that would of been cool. but it is what it is...meh.

@ Macksimus

Those are some of the thinsg i pointed out in my review...Yeah the concept of John making a big deal about bombing Skynet....and needing an army to do it uahaha....when really he and his little friend arrive and blow it up....those things are just cheesy to me.
They could of done alot better....even the scene you mention with the motorcycle terminator, that easy to take down huh? lol

they could of taken the time out to re-do certain scenes, and build more character....well at least theyll see their mistakes and fix them for T5.


Aiiwolf
Aiiwolf - 5/24/2009, 7:17 PM
@ Zephyr

Exactly, and can you please post that quote on my review.

"So here goes: You said that Skynet did not kill Kyle Reese because they need him to go back in time and help create skynet. I am afraid I have to disagree with you. An important point in any time travel theory is that you cannot go back in time and create your own existence. Just like you cannot go to the past and kill yourself, otherwise you will not grow up and be able to jump into that time machine. So I think everyone should accept that time travel is a bit of a paradox. "

Thats what I was trying to tell him the whole time...
but even if it was possible it would change things...and thats what i was trying to say about T4...people, events, things would eventually end up changing.

Anyways, metal man good review...I read it. In fact, after pissing you off...I read what you have to say, and what you write...I just like pushing your buttons. No offense, of course.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 7:27 PM
zephyr,
Don't worry, I didn't take those as fighting words. Here is what I'll say to your point: this particular example isn't one that I, personally, made up. This is actually the theory which they are going by as of the first movie. And that was the irony of the movie-- they were both paradoxes. You are saying that Skynet could not have been responsible for its own existence and so therefore it could not send the first T-800 back in time with the intentions of creating itself... but isn't that EXACTLY what John is doing, knowing that his existence is dependant on Kyle going back in time to 1984? The point that James Cameron made is that the entire story is a paradox. There is a theory that the creation of a paradox will ruin the world. Hmmm. The world seems ruined in 2018 to me. Maybe that was James Cameron's point.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 7:38 PM
zephyr,
Another thing is that it IS possible for Skynet to know of Kyle's significance as of 2018. The fact is that as long as it hasn't created the time-displacement equipment yet, none of that matters because it can only attempt to deal with him in this time for now. And one could make the argument that maybe that exact statement is the reason why Skynet has an R&D department focused on the creation of the time-displacement equipment, which we know is the main plot to the next film. Basically, it could be argued that the Resistance has a race going with Skynet to be able to destroy Skynet as soon as it creates the time displacement equipment because if Skynet has access to the TDE for an extended period of time it could systematically alter the past and strategically eliminate ANY of its threats.

Now as far as Judgment Day being inevitable goes, I have a post from another article that I wrote which I will copy/paste over here. But the point is that maybe Judgment Day is inevitable... but maybe so is John's victory over Skynet and Kyle's fate in the year 1984, no matter what.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 7:43 PM
Here is an excerpt from a post that I wrote in Aiiwolf's review:

Now I have a theory (which I've actually posted somewhere on this site before) that no matter what happens from the years 1984 to 2029, Kyle's fate is to go back in time from the exact same day in the year 2029 to the exact same date in 1984. This can be argued using the logic that in (that piece of trash) "T3" the date of Judgment Day was changed to many years later. Think about all of the differences to the world there would have been if Judgment Day had even been ONE day later, let alone several years later. And the fact is that according to this story, Kyle still ends up in 1984 on the exact same day and he must leave 2029 on the exact same day no matter what in order to be the exact age that he is in the first movie. So the point is that the ultimate irony of the "Terminator" series, according to this logic, is that although the saying goes "the future is not yet set, there is no fate but what we make for ourselves," in the cases of Kyle and John, they actually have no control over their fates. Similar to how in the "Matrix" trilogy where Cypher says to Trinity on the phone (paraphrasing) "if he IS the one, then something must happen right now to prevent me from pulling the plug on him" and right at that moment Tank got up and blew Cypher away. Basically what I am saying is that my theory in the "Terminator" series is that NO MATTER WHAT happens, it is inevitable that John will ALWAYS be alive to send Kyle, who will also ALWAYS be alive, back in time from the year 2029 to the year 1984. BUT, that's just my theory.
zephyr
zephyr - 5/24/2009, 7:46 PM
Wow...I never thought of the John Connor/Kyle Reese paradox. Nicely put.

So what you are saying is that Skynet will eventually send a T-800 to 1984 knowing full well that Kyle Reese will be right behind it.

Does this also mean that the T-1000 in T2 was sent to accelerate the creatinon of Skynet and the T-? in T3 was meant to cause Judgement Day.

If this is the case then why did skynet try to kill John Connor in 2018, knowing that he is the one that needs to send Kyle back to 1984?
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 7:46 PM
Aiiwolf,
Thanks for your review of my review.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 7:55 PM
Ok, zephyr, now this is REALLY gonna get confusing. You could make a number of arguments as to the after-effects of "T2."

First I'll answer your question as to Skynet attempting to kill John in 2018. MAYBE, and this is just a maybe, McG's original plan which had John dying and having his flesh placed on Marcus's body was Skynet's plan so that the now-fake John could (a) still send Kyle back in time at the right date in 2029 to 1984 and (b) NOT destroy Skynet since it could potentially have the ability to control him. That is all debateable, though.

Now as for the "T2"/T-1000 situation, you could argue many things there. MAYBE Skynet's missions only APPEAR to be to terminate John (and Sarah in 1984), but really it has several objectives in the past, such as the acceleration of its creation. Keep in mind that in both time traveling instances, there were events that did HUGELY altered the timeline, and yet John STILL sends Kyle back in time on said date in 2029. So that all goes back to my theory involving the fact that perhaps John and Kyle actually have no control over their fates, which have been pre-determined in EVERY possible timeline. Basically, perhaps even though there are an infinite possibily of timelines, maybe no matter what, in EVERY timeline John sends Kyle back because of the force of fate. Again, just my theory.
Aiiwolf
Aiiwolf - 5/24/2009, 7:59 PM
No prob metal man! XD

We'll just have to find out in Terminator 5. I wonder what they will name that movie?

Terminator 5: Return to the PAST finally!
zephyr
zephyr - 5/24/2009, 8:09 PM
MetalHead, I read that there was actually a third alternate ending: where the skin transplant occurs but then after the opertaion John Connor stands up and kills everyone in the room. ie, Kyle, Kate, Barnes, Hot girl whose name I forgot, etc.

That would not of been the sound of inevitability.

It's funny that you mention The Matrix because I have always contrasted the two franchises and I know this would never happen but you can actually combine the two franchises and claim that John Connor is in fact the original Neo and that The Matrix is what happens when John Connor fails. Afterall, the movie mentions that there were 6 other Neos before him.

Just thowing that out there.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/24/2009, 8:20 PM
zephyr,
First off, I did hear of that alternate ending, too. Now the only reason I question McG doing that is this: where exactly did he plan to go with the next film then? He doesn't seem to always have all of his thoughts in order.

As for your "Matrix" comparison, I have always compared the two, too. Now you could argue that the two could be the same universe if you wanted to. To me, though, the "Matrix" series is actually just a different take on the "Terminator" series. There are (obviously) many similarities. They just seemed to want to explore other possible aspects of a very similar story in the "Matrix" series. But hell-- maybe in the "Terminator" time loop the events in the "Matrix" series are one eventual timeline of the infinite number of loops that would inevitably continue for all of eternity. Man, now we are REALLY getting out there. (Although we do know that the world in "The Matrix" takes place in around the year 2200. I'm really just playing along with this idea for fun but you could argue that the "Terminator" series is the beginning to the "Matrix" series, 200+ years prior.)
Macksimus
Macksimus - 5/25/2009, 12:24 AM
@Aiiwolf

Here are my ideas for naming the next movies:

T5: Terminator: Revelations
More information is revealed about Skynet to John

T6: Terminator: Armageddon
The final confrontation between man and machine (ala Armageddon)

Obviously, they are all referencing the bible.
YohonKalic
YohonKalic - 5/25/2009, 1:12 AM
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@MetalHead

Man I'am not liking how many conversation are going on in different reviews about the same topic, hard to keep up, not to mention I don't want to keep saying what my theroy is in every post. Good review though MetalHead, also nice to see you made a fan site, I just made mine too!

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Aiiwolf
Aiiwolf - 5/25/2009, 2:58 AM
@ Macksimus

I like those titles. I wonder how it will end. If it ends, I hope it ends with a bang. At least well have 2 decent trilogies.

You know if they plan on making trilogies they should do it within the same time...like they did the harry potter movies....or the last 2 matrix films.

If Xmen Series was done like that and released each year, we'd have the same director, writers, and actors. No complications. Terminator 5 and 6 should be done that way...easier, and saves money...and you dont have to wait 2-3 years for the sequel.
Aiiwolf
Aiiwolf - 5/25/2009, 3:21 AM
I posted this on my review page also....soooo...

What if the PAST ENDS UP LIKE THIS? Huh? lol What if Sarah conner and the Terminator understand each other in a more intimate level?...



Yeah, Sarah seriously gets [frick]ed! XD
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/25/2009, 9:50 AM
Yohon,
I hear you. I know exactly what you mean. I check all of the pages anyway but just copy/paste if you want. If anyone cares... who cares? And thanks for the good feedback.

Macksimus,
I do like the sound of "Terminator Revelations." UPDATE: I REALLY like it. I think the final one needs something more epic, though. "Revelations" is an Iron Maiden song (AWESOME live song) and I believe it was also the book which The Four Horsemen were from, as well. (Just re-read your post and didn't notice that you already mentioned the fact that they were references to the Bible the first time I read it.)

Aiiwolf,
As far as the fact that it would be better if the films were filmed as a trilogy, I agree that it had a huge effect on keeping the same feel and flow to the final "Matrix" movies. And of course my opinion is biased because that would mean that we'd get 2 more movies out sooner than we would if they weren't filmed simultaneously. With the "X-Men" series there were issues that prevented them from doing so, one major issue being that "X-Men" was the first major Marvel superhero movie (I don't count "Blade" here because the majority of people who saw it probably had no idea that it was a comic book movie) so they didn't even know if there would be a sequel due to the fact that it could have bombed.

Wow, that video was actually really good. Usually those youtube things are stupid. They cut it together very well. I have to admit that I literally did laugh.
YohonKalic
YohonKalic - 5/25/2009, 10:22 AM
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@MetalHead

Yeah it good to know that the site is growing, and where getting more fansites, hope to see more stuff from you. Also I thought I was the only one that checked on every post Ive made, there are so many post ive made where people never even came back to answer.

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Betty
Betty - 5/25/2009, 9:45 PM
MetalHead n Macksimus - Im sorry but those names are as boring and predictable as "Salvation". Why not "Evolution" too. I liked this movie but I did have some problems with it. I found it basically enjoyable.

I think zephyr came close with his argument. It's not that skynet couldnt be instrumental in its own creation because, like metalhead said, that's what connor is doing.

What I'm wondering is how does skynet know about Kyle Reese when none of the terminators sent back in time ever make it back to their own time to report this information.

In this film. Neither side has discovered time travel yet. All future skynet could know is that the terminators their sending back aren't coming back at all and they are still trying to eradicate those pesky humans.

There is no way they could know about Kyle Reese or even John Connor for that matter. Well, they could have heard Connor's radio broadcast or read his diary and it mentions Kyle Reese. Huge holes man Huge holes

MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/25/2009, 10:19 PM
Betty,
There is actually a solution to that. After the events of the first film, Cyberdyne Systems reverse-engineered the T-800's CPU. This CPU would have had Kyle's information on it due to its battle with it. You could make the argument that the information that was found in its CPU was saved to files and that once Skynet took over literally every computer system in the world, it then could have found those files which were stored by Cyberdyne Systems.

ALSO, Skynet would have has access to the police tapes of Kyle at the police station. When it heard the things he had to say, Skynet would know that he was speaking the truth and that he did in fact come from the future AND know of Skynet. And from there it could logically assume John's age and estimate the date of John's consumtion, GUESSING Kyle to be the father. So yes, it is possible that Skynet could know of Kyle's existence.

And I've said before, as long as Skynet DOESN'T have access to the time displacement equipment until 2029-ish then it can be okay that they know of John's significance. My issue was always that IF Skynet had access to it all along AND knew of John's significance THEN there would be a problem for sure because why would Skynet, a super-intelligent computer system, wait until its final minutes of existance to eliminate John when it could have been sending back Terminators from the first moment that it had access to time travel? So this isn't a flaw YET. If in the next movie it is 2029 and Skynet is JUST creating the TDE then it is ok.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/25/2009, 10:27 PM
Betty,
Just wanted to clarify by saying that this isn't necessarily what happened. What I am saying is that yes, it is possible for Skynet to know this.

And as for Skynet knowing of John's existence, this information would also have been stored in the CPU from the first T-800 and therefore once it was reverse-engineered and stored to files, Skynet would also know of its mission to attepmt to terminate Sarah Connor and also of John's significance. So basically it would be another time paradox like John sending Kyle back to create him and Skynet sending the T-800 to ensure its creation in that Skynet would be sending the information of who would eventually defeat it to the past.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/25/2009, 10:28 PM
Also, Betty, notice the avatar for my fansite at the top left of this page? Thanks.
YohonKalic
YohonKalic - 5/26/2009, 1:13 AM
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This post is from Aiiwolfs Article.


Maybe Reese isn't the father at all, stands to reason that its possible that Sarah was with another guy right before Reese, maybe being the first father of John then it turns out that it becomes Reese, but what if it never becomes Reese only they think that. I mean the very first time line had John Connor before any time travel, someone had to be his father before Reese. Yet then Reese has sex with Sarah and somehow they make the same John Connor, so maybe its allways the first guy, just they think its Reese...

I don't even think I understand what im typing, its kind of hard to type what im thinking, just ignore this if you don't get this...

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Betty
Betty - 5/26/2009, 2:47 PM
I DID notice that. Thanks for using it! It was a .gif with a rockin guitar though.

Your right, it is slightly possible that the original chip could have supplied skynet with that first terminator's prime directive and all information about John Connor. And MAYBE future skynet would have known the name of the man the humans sent back.

Why would skynet have access to the police tapes of Reese? That happened way before skynet became sentient and way before the digital age so they wouldnt be stored anywhere.

I've never reverse engineered anything but I'm assuming you would destroy a little bit in the process. When the US government reverse engineered the CPUs on the roswell alien space craft they accidentally wiped the mother boards. lol.

What I'm trying to say is that I think reverse engineering tells you what something is made out of or how it is made, not whats on the chip. We didnt have the tech to read it.

Even if this scenario were possible, that would mean that every single machine made by skynet would have the "kill john connor and Kyle reese" core programming and all would've been hell bent on killing them and they would have been killed, end of movie.

I know I know, once skynet became sentient it would analyse the directive, know when it was from, and know what time the t-800 was sent back to. Even then it couldve researched Kyle Reese's lineage and stopped it then and there. Well, they would know that they exist only because a terminator was sent back to kill Reese. I could talk about this for hours.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/26/2009, 3:50 PM
Betty,
Yes, for hours... and hours and hours. Basically, the way I look at it, although they didn't tell us in the movie, they also didn't come up with something stupid to contradict itself and that's good enough for me. Because we also forget that there's always the possiblity of something else all-together different that either we haven't thought of yet OR we haven't seen yet. But as soon as they say "ok, this is what happened" I will actually be a little bit disappointed because I'm sure that once it's official, we'll be able to find the flaw.

As far as Skynet having access to the police tapes, I don't know-- I guess that theory can only be 100% possible if it was copied to a digital file and therefore could be accessed via the Internet. But if Skynet did have access to them, they would sure contain enough information to confirm to Skynet Kyle's significance.

As long as there are MAYBES as to the fact that the information could have got out there, that's good enough for me. What I can't stand are things like in "T3" when the T-850 tells John he kills him in the future because Skynet used John's boyhood attachment to it to get close... so if John dies before Skynet's defeat then (a) he is NOT the one who stops Skynet and (b) he therefore would never have defeated Skynet and then sent Kyle back to 1984 immediately after defeating it, a statement which ultimately wipes out the entire possiblity of the existence of the entire series. That's why, to me, I thought that McG and company did a great job with this movie-- they had to work around all sorts of messes that "T3" made, and they did so-- and made an interesting installment to the series that stayed true to the first 2 films-- without introducing some crazy new plot twist. They basically made the movie of the story that we had heard of as close as they could. For that, I can't complain. And like I said before: the less detail they go into and therefore the less we know, the less likely it is that we can find a flaw.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/26/2009, 3:54 PM
Yohon,
Yeah, I follow you, I know exactly what you mean and it is definitely an interesting theory and a possible one. What if Sarah was already impregnated prior to meeting Reese but she just didn't know? Man, you could go off with this one.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/26/2009, 3:57 PM
Betty,
Follow-up to that: imagine if we find out that Skynet, one week prior to "Terminator Salvation" had just found the police tapes at the LA police station and that was the reason that Kyle and John had literally JUST been added to Skynet's kill list? THAT would be cool.
MetalHead
MetalHead - 5/26/2009, 4:05 PM
AND you could make the argument that Skynet sent machines to search the police station for the tapes to try to gain information on Sarah and whoever the T-800 went there to try to terminate. Maybe Skynet would send a unit there looking for the tapes of that night, knowing that the T-800's targets were definitely there, and stumbled upon Kyle's tape. Then Skynet would actually have direct information about everything it needed to know. Think of all the things Kyle said on those tapes: where he was from (what year), which unit he was in, what his mission was, who was targeting Sarah, why it was targeting Sarah, what the name of her son was, what her son's significance to the future will be, etc.

AND you could argue that MAYBE Skynet wasn't even aware that Kyle was John's father when it captured him in 2018 in the movie-- MAYBE it was just planning to terminate the man who would eventually successfully be Sarah's protector. There wasn't actually anything in the movie that specifically said that Skynet knew that Kyle was John's father OR that that was why it had captured him and intended to terminate him. Maybe Skynet just used Kyle as the bait to lure John to Skynet's facility knowing that John knew of Kyle's significance in protecting his mother in 1984, having no idea that it had his father in their possession AND could wipe out John's existence by terminating Kyle right then and there. Another interesting concept to explore. Another reason why I'm happy that they left a lot of things open for debate as opposed to making something definitive.
BCat
BCat - 6/5/2009, 5:08 PM
As you know mate, I haven't watched the film yet and so didn't want to read your review fully (already skimmed across some things I shouldn't have) I'll watch the movie and give this a full read ;o)
YaBoyRD
YaBoyRD - 6/5/2009, 8:14 PM
Hey MetalHead!

Good review. I haven't had a chance to read the thread, so forgive me if I'm covering old ground.

1) John riding the mototerminator. I thought it was really fun that he used the old Guns & Roses tape he listened to in T2. I had a very small problem with the CGI effect when he rode away on the bike.

2) I like that T3 wasn't completely ignored. I know you aren't into T3 but Kate is a T3 concept and the design of the 'T1' was very similar to it's conception in T3. Also, during the prologue scroll, SkyNet's first strike is attributed to "Somtime in the 21st Century...." I think the 'good parts' of T3 were well-used. That's better and more artistically challenging than to simply ignore. Word to McG.

3) The detail on the early-model HK was fabulous.

4) The T-600 and Harvester were great.

5) Kyle Reese was REALLY fabulously-performed.

6) Is the old woman in the familiar-looking gas station Sarah Connor?

7) How many Marcus Wrights are there?

8) I didn't buy that John Connor could live as long as he did after getting such a large metal object shoved through his chest. I get it that he almost died and the replacement version of Marcus Wright gave him a new heart. But he probably should have bled to death before morning. Ultimately, in the grand scheme, it didn't have any effect on my enjoyment of the flick. It just bugged me a little.

9) I didn't enjoy the final narration. Mostly because, in Hollywood, one can't say "the war goes on". It's always "the war RAGES on". I didn't like the cliche after so much great movie. And I really didn't think the narration was even necessary... ending on Marcus Wright's narration would have been more artful, instead of the necessity to set up more movies and re-validate John Connor with the 'last word'.

Now, I have been compiling a list of basic ingredients to any Terminator media. I totally do this with all of the movie series' I enjoy. It also often makes for good drinking games.

TERMINATOR MOTIF GAME (things you need):
Skull being crushed, human or metal.
Someone asks what date/year it is.
Motorcycle vs Truck.
Helicopter crash.
"I'll be back."
"Come with me if you want to live."
The full name 'John Connor'
Red robot eyes poignantly fade or flicker out.
Cathartic scream while firing a machine gun.
Terminator copies someone's voice.
A factory.
Someone (metal or human) gets punched in the face and then slowly and angrily turns their head back.
Hot chick who learns to kick ass because of Judgement Day.
Any shot that's entirely about Sunglasses.

Feel free to add items and I'll edit them into this post...!

Rock On!
MetalHead
MetalHead - 6/9/2009, 12:05 AM
Hey sethasa!

Sorry it took so long to reply, I haven't even bothered checking on here lately since the replies stopped a couple weeks ago. I haven't been on here as much lately as I've made the jump to a strictly Terminator site: www.terminatorfiles.com. I'm regularly on the forum over there under the same screen name (MetalHead). Macksimus from on here is over there too under the same screen name. It's an awesome site with tons of diehard fans who really know what they're talking about so the conversations are great. You should check it out and register.

Ok, here are my replies:

1) Yes, John riding the Mototerminator was very cool. The shot was great. Although for the sake of the coolness factor we'll let it slide that for some reason, even though no one rides the Mototerminators, they apparently have handlebars, a throttle, clutch, hand & foot brake, etc... oh well. I'll just look the other way since it was very cool and COULD be possible although highly unlikely.

2) Yeah, I personally would have made the Marcus prologue take place in 1997 so that we could choose to believe that T3 did or didn't happen (since it took place in 2003 then obviously it did). The only other reference to T3's existence in TS was Kate, BUT you could make the argument that John might have met her anyway. Other than that, they didn't deny T3, but they didn't confirm it and I would be fine with the freedom to choose for myself.

3) Yes, awesome effects.

4) Same as #3

5) Yeah, Anton Yelchin was an AWESOME casting job. Check out this pick:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c77/Carnotaur3/Itskylereese.jpg

It's a side-by-side pic of Michael Biehn and Anton Yelchin and it's mind-blowing how accurate it is.

6) I wondered if that was Sarah, too, and I came to the conclusion that the answer was no... based on the fact that I read an interview with McG where in T5 he intends to have John travel to the past and see Sarah the day she dies. (I don't even want to get into how lame McG's concept for T5 is. Let's just say that he intends to send HK's back in time-- WITHOUT SKIN!)

7) The number of Marcus models are limited. The hybrid human-machine infiltrators were not mass-produced. They are not built for combat and infiltration like the T-800 model 101s are (model 101 implies the coating in living tissue).

8) Yeah, John should have been dead. I'll let that one slide due to the fact that McG needed to re-write and re-shoot the entire last hour of the film within the course of a year in order to still have it released on time, so the ending was rushed. He wanted to incorporate Marcus's human side and human parts in a way that would be a key factor in the plot and due to the changes to the script, this was what he came up with for an idea in the short amount of time which he had to do so. Originally he had John dying with 2 endings: one where Kate put John's flesh on Marcus and had Marcus replace John and he did, the other where that happened... but Marcus killed everyone-- Kyle, Kate, Barnes, Blair, etc. This did not go over well so he had to re-write it.

9) Yeah, I'll file that one under the excuse for #8, too.

Okay, a motif I'd add is:
Hot chick who learns to (or as a result of Judgment Day has already learned to) kick some ass.

I'm sure I'll come up with some more later. Anyway, good to hear from you and I'm glad you liked my review.
YaBoyRD
YaBoyRD - 6/10/2009, 3:26 PM
Hey MetalHead,

Thanks for the Terminator group link. I'll check it out.

John riding the MotoTerminator only bugged me for a second when he rode away because the CGI effect wasn't finished well... something about the bike/rider relationship to all the abandoned cars it was passing. It took me out of the movie for a second where none of the other effects did.

I remember feeling weird about the helicopter crash at the beginning. I didn't believe, first and foremost, that JC's helicopter could even catch up with the enemy transport and it seemed odd that he even tried.

Thanks for clearing up the Model 101 thing. That's been eating at me.

Kyle casting: it's not only the physical resemblance... Anton had the mannerisms DOWN. He looked, sounded, and in the context of the movie he FELT like Kyle Reese. I mean, I was never thinking "this is a guy playing another actor who played Kyle Reese." He and McG simply nailed it.

I let the John-survives-beam-through-chest / heart transplant thing slide because the rest of the movie was so good and I also knew about the rush ending. McG didn't have to tack-on the cliche narration, though.

I LOVED the way the Sarah Connor tapes were used, too. I didn't say that earlier.

I'll check out the other site.

Rock On...!
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