The Wonder Woman Conundrum

The Wonder Woman Conundrum

I just don't understand Wonder Woman. I don't understand her character. I don't get her appeal. And I want to, I really do.

Editorial Opinion
By thwhtGuardian - Oct 21, 2009 06:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Wonder Woman

I've always wanted to be interested in Wonder Woman, I've tried reading her books but I've never been able to stick with them for very long. She has such a great iconic image, but her stories, to me always seem to be lacking or severely dated.

I understand Superman. I inderstand Batman. I get Catwoman, Batgirl, Black Canary, Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Supergirl, Power Girl, Big Barda, Manhunter. I understand these characters. I understand what attracts me to these characters (or other fans to these characters). I feel that I have a good idea of what they would and would not do, say and would not say.

But Wonder Woman? I have no idea who her character is.

Is she an ambassador of peace or is she a warrior princess? Is she here to learn or to teach? She’s an experienced fighter, but a virgin (loaded word, that) in human interactions? I understand her appeal as an icon, a symbol of women's power. I understand the appeal of a wonder woman, a being who steps out of myths in the "real" world, bringing a era of gods and monsters with her. But the character's aspects confuse me. She’s not as strong as Superman, but she’s a better fighter, and regal, so…what does all this mean? What is her definitive role?

If you look back to the early years, every character has a primary, fairly timeless template. Superman is a mythical heroic figure blended with an immigrant fairy tale; Batman is the ideal of vengeance-driven pulp detective heroes like The Shadow. But Wonder Woman was created in a much different mold; Marston built Wonder Woman with some very specific goals: to introduce a female superhero that reflected his own interests in polyamory, lie detection, and, bondage( yes you heard me right that was one of his stated goals).

Not only is that not exactly a timeless basis for a character – it was pretty unusual for the time of her creation. Marston was using his creation as a Trojan horse for his own philosophies, making the character’s motivations, unlike Superman and Batman, very specific to her creator’s intentions.

Since then, some great writers have professed to not knowing just how to write for her. Grant Morrison – who somehow managed to craft a definitive version of Plastic Man, for pete’s sakes –couldn’t get a handle on her (evident by the fact that she’s a minor player in both his Justice League run and his DC magnum opus, Final Crisis).

Bruce Timm and co. similarly couldn’t quite crack her in the “Justice League” animated series. The go-to female POV went to Hawkgirl, who was written as everyone’s favorite tom-girl.

Greg Rucka had a good take by literally making her an ambassador, with diplomatic credentials, a staff, and even a book deal espousing her philosophies – but DC took it all apart when he left.

Mark Waid used his “Kingdom Come” to play with the post-Marston contradictions in her portrayal – a warrior sent to teach peace – to examine the flaws in her system. Which doesn’t exactly make for a workable character template either.

Oddly enough, considering her 70’s repurposing as a feminist icon, “Get a woman to write her” hasn’t been the cure-all you’d expect. Popular novelist Jodi Picault took a shot a couple years back, and the results made you wonder if Picault had ever met a woman OR read a comic before in her life.


Wonder Woman is frankly missing the "great event" that defines her. And it's hard for writers to create one because of her lack of a template. A major problem with Wonder Woman is that the original, defining version of the character or series can't be used as a touchstone by its current creators.

Assigned to Superman? Make it like Siegel and Shuster, filtered through Weisinger/Binder.

Batman? Kane/Finger/Robinson, seen through the lens of O'Neill/Adams.

Fantastic Four? Do it like Stan and Jack.

And so on.

But Wonder Woman? Marston/Peter is just too weird and kinky to use. So you're left with a pell mell of variations because you have to stay true to cannon, but the cannon is just plain weird.



Like I said I'm continually trying to get into her, because she works so well as a supporting character. I've read multiple stories streatching back through the years and I just don't get why everyone goes up in arms when ever someone mentions going against cannon. From my point of view the only thing you can do IS ignore almost everything that came before and try and start anew. She's a beautiful character in the Spirit of Truth and Hikitea, but most of her other solo stories are beyond flat.

That's my two cents, maybe there's an arch I'm missing, and if I am point it out, I want to learn.

And the first person to state I don't get her because I have something against women gets an e-slap. I love Black Canary, catwoman, and the Cassandra Cain bat girl and most of all Xena and Captain Janeway. So shove it.
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thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/21/2009, 9:03 PM
She's a great character, she just fails to meet potential. Conceptually she should be as cool as 300 and thor combined, but her stories seldom get there. I like Hikitea, it's one of my all time favorite comics but her usual fare is lack luster.

I hope that with my more in depth opinion, that this discussion will not come to personal attacks like it did that the last time I debated the quality of WW's writing.
TheUnknown
TheUnknown - 10/21/2009, 10:27 PM
Wonder Woman is a character that worked back in the 50s and 60s. She's been struggling ever since to catch up to modern times.
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/21/2009, 11:41 PM
That's exactly it, everytime she is written she is written very specially, so much so that when times change she becomes antiquated. I said this in the other thread, but I think it bears repeating, there are stories written in the past that age well and others that don't. Perez's wonder woman reboot was prolly great in the 80's but now it just feels outdated, however other stories written at the same time like the watchmen and Batman Year One are still widely read and enjoyed to this day.
I can't for the life of me figure out why wonder woman doesn't work for me. She has an iconic image that is as timeless batman and superman, but her stories for me always fail to capture that same iconic feel.
I know she's well loved, there's got to be something I'm missing.
What are her iconic stories?

OptionFour
OptionFour - 10/22/2009, 2:01 AM
I like the Wonder Woman character. I completely agree that she hasn't lived up to potential, and here is the why and how of it as I see it.

You're right in pointing out character's defining moments, and how they are shaped by them. Put a character in the dark, strip away everything else about them, and what events are at their heart?

For Batman you've got a gritty murder in a rainy back alley, a blood spattered childhood.

For Superman you have the destruction of an entire planet, and a lost legacy he can never recover.

But Wonder Woman has, uh . . . putting on her star-spangled panties and going to the World of Man? Her problem, as I see it, as that the nuances of the character, the psychologically shaping events in her past, just aren't all that powerful. Or rather, they've been written in ways that minimize them. And they've been done that way for so long that anyone who comes along to write her now feels an obligation to carry all that extra baggage with them. What she really needs is a mini-series that retells her origin and journey to the world of man in a more powerful, definitive, relatable way. Changes would have to be made. And honestly? They should be. While I love Wonder Woman, most people - the people going to see the Batman movies, and other CBMs - don't really give a damn about her. She doesn't resonate the same way. And she deserves better.
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 10:19 AM
thanks multi.

I've heard rumors that the reason she is still pushed(despite low sales) is because if they cancel the book she immediately reverts back to the heirs of the creator. And despite her lack luster comic sales she is number three in merchandising sales, so rather than let her go they allow her to chug on.

A Geoff Johns secret origins idea would work nicely, I like the GL one, however I'm more than satisfied with Superman Birth Right, so his superman one seems unnecessary to me.
Betty
Betty - 10/22/2009, 10:20 AM
Does a character have to have a tragic origin to be a memorable character?
Betty
Betty - 10/22/2009, 10:27 AM
Where's Keepitreal?
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 10:28 AM
I don't think she needs a tragic origin, it just needs to be consistent and feel timeless. Perez's version is full of 80's lingo so it feels terribly dated, Bryne's is well, even he admits he made the continuity even more confusing in his attempt to stream line it.
It needs to be powerful, it needs gravity. And her character needs to be consistently written.

I know, I wish I could get more input from Keepitreal an phin. I've read alot o Wonder Woman but they know her better I feel.
lowflams3137
lowflams3137 - 10/22/2009, 11:04 AM
in the words on RDJ
FU*K DC
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 11:52 AM
you know, I think that panal might have been doctored tea, I don't think superman would say such a thing :P
StephenStrange
StephenStrange - 10/22/2009, 12:06 PM
Anybody ever dated "the tough chick"?

The one that is in the military but still hot....
The triathlete maybe? The MMA babe or the one that goes mountain climbing on the weekends.

The kind of woman that wears rugged well, and can outdo the boys, possibly in several ways.

If you have expereinced that or if you can even relate to it, then you can understand the appeal of Wonder Woman. It's the same with Elektra too actually
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 12:20 PM
yeah, multi hit it on the head( well about how she's portrayed). She is seldom portrayed in that manner, more often than not we get the naive ww. It flip flops back and forth between writers, there is just no consistency of character. In one issue she's the tough chick, in another she's a child lost in the "man's world". Some times she believes that aggression is the solution and others she is shown to avoid conflict. I'm trying to find the definitive wonder woman, something I can latch onto but I can't locate it.
What is her definitive arch?
StephenStrange
StephenStrange - 10/22/2009, 1:18 PM
lol @ Multi cool

Yeah gents if your ever lucky enough to meet a woman like that that isn't a dyke or a ballbreaking feminazi, you better chase that shit down with all your might! lol They're rare.

@ thwhtGuardian: I wish I could answer your question knowledgeably, but I can't. I probably have less than thirty comics with WW in them. I was just taking a guess with the tough chick thing lol

But going by what you said, it sounds liek there migth not BE any definitive WW. Just like Wolverine, different writers have written her one way and then then other writers come along and do something else.
Joslezio85
Joslezio85 - 10/22/2009, 1:25 PM
well, the way I look at it. Is she's more ruthless than superman, and not quite as ruthless as Batman. She's the medium, and the female. She makes up the Trinity. She's the iconic best female super hero ever. Along with the perfect hero. ie superman. and the darkest ie batman. She creates a balance that is necessary to have these characters interact. That's good enough for me.
Phinehas
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 1:41 PM
Darth- I think you're onto something, but twG confuses me more with his questions that he raises than the imaginary problems he fabricates.
Seriously, twG, I don't get what you don't get. Fights for peace but is a warrior? I think you need a come to MultiPurposePoni moment here. He may be able to help you.
Just like Superman nor Batman isn't anything like what their creator made, neither is Wonder Woman. Superman didn't fly, and Bats actually brandished a gun!
Also, getting a woman to write her is the last prescription that I would write! Why? Because, when you write for these archetypes you are writing with ideals that are the best in us all. They are ideals that are not to be grasped with hands. Likewise with WW, there is a mystery about her that emminates from the opposite sex, that is, the ideal woman. Her story starts from an island of women that voluntarily isolated themselves from the world of men. So the story can't come from their point of view outward. It has to come from the outside in! They are a mystery(like as all stories develop). It can't be all explained in quick beautiful symplicity (women love foreplay and romance ;-p). Likewise, there is a fallacy with their Amazonian ideals. Same with the Kryptonian cousel of Superman's foundations. Their blinding arrogance brought on their destruction. Remember, although WW is an abassador to bring her Amazonian ideals to the patriarchs, she is at the same time exposing herself to a world she never experienced before. She is still learning like a child. So of coarse, her character cannot be written with strict definition as you would like. Wonder Woman, for all intensive purposes, is having to go through a rite of passage all over again as all boys and girls do through adolescence. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. I get her. I like it.
WeaponX
WeaponX - 10/22/2009, 1:47 PM
I watched a documentary on females in comics and the issue of Wonder Woman was brought up and how feminists have latched onto the character as their pop-culture poster child. Which in turn has effectively put up a creative wall for writers of the character. Giving them the unpleasant idea of really going for a new direction without starting the flood of hate mail and editorials. I think it was Mike Sekowsky who mentioned on the documentary about trying to go a new direction with the character and the utter shit storm he received from the feminist community for doing what he did. Which he does concede wasn't his greatest of ideas but he brings about the point that this character is so convoluted in her personality coupled with the restraints of her social iconic status with particular groups that even trying to go in a different direction has too much consequence and risk of reputation to the writer. It effectively holds them back. So, I think, that if a writer was to walk in with the task of creating a definitive Wonder Woman he really doesn't have the freedom one needs to really make it work. Which I also think is why today she is still just spinning her wheels in a way. The character's adopted iconic social status provides too many restraints for any major change.

She has the potential, no doubt, just doesn't have the will of the writers to really go at her history and clean her up. At least that was the impression I got from the documentary I watched. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the character but if they did do an overhaul on her, gave her a much needed update on the costume, ditched that ridiculous lasso of truth and cleaned up her origin enough I'd be more inclined to support her comics.

Phinehas
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 1:51 PM
Also, as an addendum; Notice how you guys were talking about the "tough chick that is still hot"? How she goes hiking, climbing and camping, essentially athletic and "keeps up with the boys"? Guys love a competitve spirit! They want a woman like that to do the things with them that they love to do? How many of you guys wished your wives actually love to watch the games, go fishing, camping, etc? Of coarse! That's what WW provides, except her ideals keep her interesting because the shroud her with mystery.
MidKnight35
MidKnight35 - 10/22/2009, 1:56 PM
I know she completes the trilogy but, she doesn't stand alone well without the other two at all. If she is so iconic then why is she only seen as the 'bridge' character? She needs a redoing. Go back retell her origins in a similar manner of the WW animated movie. I would prefer her to be overly naiave and arrogant to man's world. I hate he being portrayed as a child. She is a goddess raised by some of the most feriocious warriors known. This is how I would portray her with many allegories to the real-life American history.

She comes to 'man's world' not because of her own interest but rather forced by the Amazons. Amazonia is discovered by airforce pilot Steve Trevor who crashes on their island. The Amazonians have lived in solitude for quite some time they felt their island is safe from intruders. With the introduction of Trevor on their island their safety is jeopardized (references to America after 9/11 and how we felt unsafe), instead of just killing Trevor they fear that another accident such as that may happen again so they let him live and force WW to take Steve home, and spend some time in America ensure their safety. She travels to man's world and feels hers is far superior, and every aspect of man's world is dirty and insignificant. "Man's World" hates and dispises WW because of her attitude towards the outside world, her often excessive use of force and power brings her in conflict with the US military. It takes Steve Turner to make both side realize they can live together and Amazonia and the rest of the world can be equals. Wonder Woman accepts America and "Man's world" and feels a sense to protect "Man's World" (much like the USA's sense to be involved with the rest of the world). She then finds out Amazonia plans on attacking America to ensure their safety and dominance as they felt Wonder Woman failed them and became soft. This battle pits WW against her former home and sisters which only by destruction of both sides do the Amazonians see the wrong of their ways.

Shaman
Shaman - 10/22/2009, 2:00 PM
There is no definitive arc, the character is [frick]ed. The only way to enjoy the character is to not collect her solo books. Any writer that comes aboard will just add to the mix instead of setting anything straight.

I feel that there is only one way to do this. The ol' Pheonix rising from her ashes formula. KILL HER!!! Have her come back so [frick]ed up that she doesn't know who she's been and her identity search comes out as confusing as her comic book history. In short, she'd be "re-making" herself to a definitive template for once in the character's history!!! Keep the best in all worlds and make a brand new mold is what i say ;)
Upupandaway
Upupandaway - 10/22/2009, 2:11 PM
I think WW was best portrayed in Kingdom Come and New Frontier when she has to be talked down. She's an idealistic character (probably even more so than Superman) and she's best used when her ideals are at the point of going too far. @multi: That would make her an excellent villain. It's that mix of naivete, good intentions, and a limited worldview that make her a great conflicted character. That's why why she is a great supporting character because she needs an anchor. I think this is best explored in anything with her and Superman.
Upupandaway
Upupandaway - 10/22/2009, 2:15 PM
I think WW was best portrayed in Kingdom Come and New Frontier when she has to be talked down. She's an idealistic character (probably even more so than Superman) and she's best used when her ideals are at the point of going too far. @multi: That would make her an excellent villain. It's that mix of naivete, good intentions, and a limited worldview that make her a great conflicted character. That's why why she is a great supporting character because she needs an anchor. I think this is best explored in anything with her and Superman.
slimybug
slimybug - 10/22/2009, 2:42 PM
Okay, I get what you're saying about Wonder Woman, even if I don't share the same views. And you can post it all you want on here, of course. but why did the powers-that-be decide to put it on the front page, let alone on the top billing? It's not exactly big news. Oh well.

To get to your point, I think the movie should be based off Perez's initial run on the series, which was just a fantastic adventure story mixed with a fish-out-of-water tale.
Gail Simone's latest run on the series is also fan-freaking-tastic!
Merinator
Merinator - 10/22/2009, 2:56 PM
In my opinion, Wondy is a plain character, but suffers behaviour fluctuations, just like a sine function. That would explain her duality between warrior princess and peace ambassador, for example.
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:06 PM
it's not the warrior part phin, it's the way she reacts at times: sometimes she naive and other times she's a cynic driven by aggression. I understand the rite of passage thing, and how that would create a certain amount of duality in the character, but that doesn't explain away why she's written so erratically.

What are her memorable story archs, what can I read to get her? You want some to like batman you tell them to read year one, the killing joke or the long Halloween. With superman you tell them to get what ever happened to the man of tommorow, superman for all seasons, birth right and the death of superman. But what about wonder woman? What are her defining solo archs. I love her in trinity, and in the Justice League, but aside from the Hiketia and the spirit of truth most of her solo stuff seems poorly written. The character is great phin, but I don't get why her writing isn't. I guess that didn't get across well yet. It's her writing I don't get.

I love her as a character, but I can't understand why her solo books aren't up to par.

And darth I think the comparison to wolverine is a good one about the convoluted continuity( say that ten times fast!) But even so wolverine himself remains the same character wise he's always feral, always surly and he has several great story archs of his own that you can point to for anyone interested in him.

and slimy, while the elements of perez's run were interesting the books themselves seem very dated. You read them and you find your self thinking this is very dated where as in books like the watchmen and year one which were written around the same time don't feel like that at all.

Phinehas
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 3:12 PM
twG-
Ahhhh...now were talking. I'll leave that up KIR. She's a more avid WW apologist than I am. I am a fan of the character as you note. I have visions of how I would have her portrayed in writing or film. KIR has more familiarity to WW comic myth than I do.
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:21 PM
I'd really like her input. I've been reading ww for years and it's something that's always been on my mind. Every once in a while she strikes gold but most of the time it's a miss. Like I said, hiketia is one of my favorite books, not just wonder woman but of all comics. And it confuses me as to why there aren't more like it. There are dozens of great batman stories, and the same with superman, why is it so hard to do wonder Woman?
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:33 PM
lol I bet you have multi
JonF
JonF - 10/22/2009, 3:47 PM
thwG - This isn't a Wonder Woman problem. This is a DC comics problem! They continue to permutate their characters to match each trend/fad/generation leaving newer readers utterly confused! They've tried numerous times to fix this, but the problem always seems to repeat itself!

What I can suggest is starting with the "Who Is Wonder Woman" arc by Allan Heinberg and Terry Dodson(WW vol. 3, #'s 1 -6 and Annual 1). It is excellently executed and offers a good starting point.

From there I'd check out Phil Jimenez's run from earlier this decade, followed by John Byrne's vol. 2 issues and then George Perez's 1987 - 1991 stint! There was also a solid run by William Messner Loebs & Mike Deodato about 7 years ago.

Lastly, I highly recommend checking out the excellent Spirit of Truth treasury edition that Alex Ross and Paul Dini did in 2001.

Other than that, I don't think there is a definitive arc for WW, as Hippolyta has been ret-conned into being the Golden Age WW.
thwhtGuardian
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 4:19 PM
thanks man, the spirit if truth is good, I love ross and dini
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 10/22/2009, 4:22 PM
@ thwhtknight

i understand what you mean. i'm not big on ole bitch-tits either. i think a lot of it comes from the fact that she's really the first female character to be so popular. she's a female superman for all intents and purposes. but i can just never get into her, at all. i don't mind when she's around or anything like that, but she's kind of just there to me, i don't take much notice. but at the same time, i wouldn't want a justice league without her, go figure, huh?
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