Examining General BATMAN VS SUPERMAN Complaints and Why They Are Unfounded

Examining General BATMAN VS SUPERMAN Complaints and Why They Are Unfounded

It seems that every time there is a new Batman/Superman rumor or announcement, people complain and whine - even when there is really no logical or legitimate reason to. Here, I examine some of these complaints and determine whether or not they are truly legitimate.

Editorial Opinion
By Nick56 - Nov 21, 2013 07:11 PM EST
Filed Under: Batman vs. Superman



I’ve noticed that every time there is a new Batman/Superman rumor or announcement, users complain and whine while some even claim the movie (and by extension the entire DCCU) is "doomed" - even when there is really no logical and legitimate reason. This is why I think such complaints are, currently, unfounded :

1. BATFLECK, CASTING, AND CASTING RUMORS
I’ve been onboard with Ben Affleck as Batman/Bruce Wayne right from the start. While I feel there were better choices (Josh Brolin), Ben Affleck has grown a great deal as both an actor and a director - just look at The Town and Argo. Ben has the look and the chops to pull this off. Snyder has confidence (he is fantastic with casting) and Affleck himself certainly has enough confidence he can pull it off (why would he risk playing another superhero if he was unsure of his ability and the strength of the script). Plus there is always negative feedback to casting like this (such as Michael Keaton in the 1980s and Heath Ledger most recently). As for other rumored casting, this is where I feel people really need to relax. Remember these are just rumors and not casting confirmations. And if some of these rumored individuals do get cast then its because WB, Snyder, and everyone involved has confidence in them. For example, both Gal Gadot and Olga Kurylenko have been linked to the Diana Prince/Wonder Woman cameo. They're both attractive and have a more exotic look (which fits WW). While they wouldn't be my first choices, I think if they put on some more muscle, either of them could work. But like I said, most of this stuff is rumor based, there is no real reason to get angry over some of these actors and actresses before we even see them on screen or in costume, let alone cast.

2. TOO CROWDED/RUSHING THE DCCU?
This one throws me off the most. I’m not entirely sure why people think the movie has become “too crowded”. There have been rumors of Nightwing, Barry Allen (The Flash), and Diana Prince (Wonder Woman) all appearing in the film; however, people fail to realize the minimal role they will more than likely have in the movie, let alone if they will appear at all. The rumors concerning Barry and Diana suggest they will have cameos and not even be in costume - appearances like this are common in comic book movies (e.g. Tony Stark in Incredible Hulk, Black Widow in Iron Man 2, Clint Barton in Thor, etc..). While its believed that Nightwing will have a larger role in terms of Batman’s arc in the film, this makes sense given the fact that Batman is a bit more mature and seasoned - hence, in terms of a Batman timeline, Nightwing can exist (maybe have some backstory with flashbacks or something). So in reality Batman and Superman are the only two confirmed for the film and the focus will largely be on them; at most we will get a couple cameos (to set up solo films down the line) and an appearance from Nightwing - all of which should make any fan giddy with excitement. Once they introduce the two core characters of the DC Universe and plant the seeds for further characters, they can actually begin to branch out with (hopefully) Wonder Woman and Flash films before (or maybe after) Justice League.

3. THE TITLE
While I agree the rumored titles are not that great they are far superior to “Batman vs Superman” and some are even better than “World’s Finest”. “BvS” sounds like some campy movie title like Alien vs Predator (*shudder*) and “World’s Finest” means nothing to non-comic book fans. Personally I like “Man of Steel: Shadow of the Night” (though I think it should be ‘Knight‘ or ‘Bat’) and “Man of Steel: Knight Fall” - they get the point across that this is a sequel to Man of Steel while alluding to Batman’s presence in the film. But honestly who cares? Seriously. Batman and Superman are appearing together in a movie, does the title really matter?

4. THE STORY
We know very little about the story (if anything) so its kinda hard to complain about it - but of course fanboys find it quite easy to. All I’ll say is that I was a big fan of Man of Steel despite its flaws. While it didn’t live up to the the Dark Knight Trilogy (could any CBM ever?), it delivered an emotional, character-driven, and action-packed telling of the Superman mythos - which is all I ever wanted from a Superman movie. In fact I’d say it made me a Superman fan (which I never would have expected would ever happen). I agree with most people that the Superman of the sequel should be more hopeful (especially to contrast him against Batman) and that some of the criticisms of the third act should be addressed (Snyder has already suggested they will be dealt with). As for some of the bat-drone and semi-retired Batman rumors, people need to realize 1. Batman is SEMI retired, not fully retired - hence using drones (an element of Kingdom Come) to watch over everything and 2. That the events of MOS and/or whatever happens early on in the sequel will more than likely draw him back into being a full time hero again - Batman isn't going to be sitting on his ass the whole movie! Currently there is really no reason to get that worked up about anything story related. At this point and time I have confidence in Goyer and Snyder.

So there you have it. Is all the whining about every Batman/Superman rumor and announcement really warranted? I don’t think so. But of course that’s just me. I’m sure that, despite any of this, fanboy's and people's complaints will continue - hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if the thread on this editorial breaks out into a troll occupied flame war for no reason. But hopefully some of you will act civilized and ultimately look at all future rumors through a more logical and open-minded lens.

Thanks for reading!
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Nick56
Nick56 - 11/21/2013, 8:02 PM
@NPaMusic by fanboy I mean fans of comic books/comic book movies - so people and users on this site and other similar sites in general. And I agree, some of the titles on that list don't flow at all, the point is, that some of the titles listed do work but the majority of people immediately dismiss them because they aren't exactly what they wanted
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 11/21/2013, 8:06 PM
Heh, I used to think of "World's Finest Chocolate"...

Shhhhh....

Flame wars pop up at random, usually based on some off-the-wall comment down below your article that has absolutely nothing to do with what you explained or even implied. Hell, the title is usually the jumping point.
---

Kingdom Come...
I've read it twice. The first time, I hated it. The second time, I just shook my head. Alex Ross is a great photo-realistic painter. When it comes to writing, he's godawful. Everything feels like an advertisement, or a trailer for something that you'll never actually see. You're supposed to be hypnotized by the beautiful art and not paying much attention to the boxes and dialogue, but yeah, there's something missing.

Anywho - I decided a while back that I'd enjoy it for what it is, and then if it truly does stand for some really BAD choices in the future, then I'll worry about that AFTERWARDS. I want to see these two legendary characters become friends, not two people thrust into a situation where they have to work together until all is said and done. If they bring that to the table, then I'll have considered the movie a success.
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/21/2013, 8:18 PM
@Tainted87 fair point, however almost every batman/superman rumor article consistently turns into a marvel/dc war for no apparent reason thanks to some trolls and people taking them seriously
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/21/2013, 8:27 PM
@Pending I think it all depends on how its handled. I think already having a history makes it different from some of the previous adaptions of the character on film - maybe they'll flesh some stuff out with flashbacks
mawilli4
mawilli4 - 11/21/2013, 8:37 PM
I agree with you. The seasoned Batman is a great idea. We do not need another finding his way/origin story. It's been done. What hasn't been done is a veteran Batman. This Batman should know what he's doing.

By having Nightwing, they are acknowledging that Robin happened without putting him in the film. Which keeps continuity intact, while making Batman, dark and brooding, which WB likes to do.
mawilli4
mawilli4 - 11/21/2013, 9:12 PM
@MexicanSuperman hell yeah! Mr Freeze could be awesome!
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/21/2013, 9:33 PM
@MexicanSuperman I agree, it would be great if Affleck was involved behind the camera in some capacity on the next batman film
TheIronStomach
TheIronStomach - 11/21/2013, 10:17 PM
No origin story. Everyone knows the basics of Batman at this point. Briefly allude through dialogue Batman as having a younger assistant who grew up and out of his role and now does what Batman does. Say Nightwing. Have his name be Robin or something like that but dear God don't let Robin be mentioned as the name of his assistant early on. Its an outdated name and character.

I think if what WB cockteased at Comic con with the Dark Knight Returns' finale dialogue is not just that but the actual story to be used for the movie then they should have Nightwing as opposed to Green Arrow fire the arrows or something similar to help Batman work his way to beating Supes down. Hope that's what they go for.

Have it be the US govt asking Supes to help them track down the Batman of Gotham City because his crime fighting ways have gone too far and no one can touch him.

Hint or even introduce villains for future use but Superman and Batman in the same movie will combined eat up most screentime and that's fine. We want to see Cavill develop as Supes and we need enough of Ben as Bats to make the character his own. The relationship between these 2 alone could be the whole movie and that's fine.

Have the title be Batman/Superman or Batman vs Superman.
The marketing campaign for a 'versus' "which side are you on?" kind of thing would be awesome
SpanX13
SpanX13 - 11/22/2013, 1:22 AM
I know visually (Watchmen) it'll be great, story wise we know fare too little to be sure.

I wonder how they're going to get around at least Batman & Lex Luthor not figuring out the secret identity. I mean anyone with google can trace Lois steps & figure it out. I hope at least Batman has by the time they meet on screen. The reaction from Superman & the audience will be amazing, also really sets him up as a detective & how dangerous he can be.

Lastly, fans have been wrong more often than they are right. Goyer knows Batman,so that shouldn't put us off, Affleck will be decent, but will be much more rounded in a solo movie. As its been stated, this is more about Superman finding/establishing his role in the world & then how he reacts & handles other meta's/vigilantes. Batman being a different threat,but just as dangerous as any physical threat. Lex will rep. The government & perhaps even play on people fear & anxiety regarding him. Least these factors will make an interesting step off.
jlabatman
jlabatman - 11/22/2013, 5:16 AM
Affleck will pull it off and IMO will be a great movie!
Greengo
Greengo - 11/22/2013, 5:55 AM
Did we ever get an explanation as to why the title article disappeared???
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 11/22/2013, 7:59 AM
I'm in the process of tying to tolerate the people of this site. It all comes down to internet trolling. That's what it is. So perhaps I should just stay away? Or even better, not read the comments by these biased, unfair, senseless idiots? Lol, if a power user reads this comment, please, feel free to restrict me from this place. I honestly don't care anymore. Some of these people should be ASHAMED to call themselves a CBM fan.

Great article. Nice to see someone stand up to the trolls on this site.
JokerFanHAhaHA
JokerFanHAhaHA - 11/22/2013, 8:30 AM
I have serious doubts for this movie. It's clear to me that Goyer just does not get the character, does not know how to write regular people, and BLATANTLY doesn't know how to write women.

But I still have hope, mainly hoping Affleck will maybe make some rewrites or do something to make the film better than MOS.
casanovagunny
casanovagunny - 11/22/2013, 4:31 PM
I'm really excited for this movie and especially can't wait to see Affleck as Batman. I think he's going to know it out of the park and with Cavill as Supes, it'll be great. Have a lot of confidence in Snyder but not in Goyer. I think Goyer messed up the Dark Knight Trilogy with exception to Begins and Ledger's performance as Joker in TDK. If they let Affleck in on the writing duties, they it could be spectacular. In any case, I think it'll make $$$$.
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/22/2013, 4:31 PM
@OldGreg I agree
casanovagunny
casanovagunny - 11/22/2013, 4:32 PM
"Knock it out of the park"
Kendospawn
Kendospawn - 11/22/2013, 4:53 PM
Well with Batman being semi-retired it would work nicely to explain the who/how/why of Nightwing. With him working then Bats could take some downtime or give him a chance to work outside Gotham.
paulyd3
paulyd3 - 11/22/2013, 5:36 PM
beast mode

wf1



seeether23
seeether23 - 11/22/2013, 6:13 PM
Article makes sense to me. I particularly like your comments about it not getting to crowded. Marvel's had great success with little cameos. I think WB will do the same thing but the cameos will actually be for spinoff characters...
thewolfx
thewolfx - 11/22/2013, 6:57 PM
What annoys me is batman until that point in which superman firts appears is supposed to be just a myth a urban legend in gotham.. i really dont think he could have robin n eventually nightwing in that faze.
BlueDemon
BlueDemon - 11/22/2013, 7:17 PM
Never liked Affleck as an actor but hopefully this works out cause its not like I have a choice
tricklove187
tricklove187 - 11/22/2013, 8:07 PM
How about adding "DC" in the title like Marvel? ie, DC presents World's Finest.
Forthas
Forthas - 11/22/2013, 8:36 PM
1) The casting of Ben Affleck is one of the worst casting choices that I can remember. He himself said he did not want to portray a Superhero again, that he did not enjoy playing one before - feeling "humiliated" and most recently that he was reluctant to take the role because he did not fit the mold. So Affleck himself has provided all the reasons himself why he is a bad choice. Not to me ntion his take on Daredevil (a somewhat similar role to Batman) was not well received. I saw Argo and understand why Affleck was not recognized with any award for that performance. You ask why Affleck would take the risk...well if he is watching Robert Downey Jr. command $50 million a picture it is not hard to see why Affleck would try to do the same. Snyder generally has cast well but he did screw up casting Amy Adams as Lois Lane. As far as the other rumored casting choices none of them are my first choice but they are at least competent actors.

2) WB already had an established and popular Batman. If they integrated the Dark Knight movies with Man of Steel then I could see the logic of having Batman in the sequel to Superman. But to introduce a whole new Batman is borderline crazy. It never works to introduce heroes in the middle of their crime fighting career. The origin is necessary to help audiences acclimate to the person. This is why this movie is not going to work. Everyone knows it is a cheap attempt to lure people to theaters by going back to the golden bat. Superman has the potential to surpass the success of the Dark Knight films. The Man of Steel outperformed Batman Begins. But WB lacks such confidence in their production that they resort to cheap tricks. This is a sign of how little they regard the potential of these characters.

3) As far as the story goes, I can't comment on how good or bad it will be but I do know that they should have incorporated the Dark Knight movies which ended with a retired Batman and what could have evolved into a Nightwing not to mention an already established Catwoman. All of that backstory and critical acclaim, and actors who defined the characters...all of that good will which could have bolstered this film is now wasted. That is just dumb plain and simple.

4) Whether Batman is in it or not, they should honor the fact that it is a sequel to Man of Steel. They did not call the first Thor... Thor versus Hawkeye. If it were up to me (and they incorporated the Dark Knight movies) I would call it Man of Steel: Acsension OR Man of Steel: Contention OR something along those lines.
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/22/2013, 9:43 PM
@RetroFit - This isn't about opinions, its about reacting to rumors and other things through a somewhat reasonable perspective.
Nick56
Nick56 - 11/22/2013, 9:46 PM
@Forthas I personally want Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy to be separate from the DCCU. To me they just don't work together (but thats a whole other argument). Agree to disagree I guess.
Logan5
Logan5 - 11/22/2013, 9:57 PM
I love how there is that moment right after Superman evades the Lexcorp fuel rig to simply have it explode behind him. Upon turning to access the parking garage that was destroyed by said rig, for a couple of seconds, we get Kal seeing that he should have stopped it, but before he can even take a breath, Zod sideswipes him as if he's the Flash. I urge you to freeze the frame. So by law.., it's in there. :-D
Logan5
Logan5 - 11/22/2013, 10:02 PM
@tainted87 - 11/21/2013, 8:06pm

He's Just Not That Into You 2: Batman Vs Superman.
CPBuff22
CPBuff22 - 11/22/2013, 10:10 PM
My complain is NONE of these things.

I feel that this move has proved how little faith WB has in DC as a property outside of Batman.

Warner Brothers have done one movie from the DC Universe since The Dark Knight Trilogy. They chose their biggest gun to feature when they chose to use Superman. They brought Christopher Nolan on board because of the financial success of The Dark Knight series. And the movie failed to make the money they wanted or receive the reviews they wanted.

So Man of Steel does still get a sequel and that's a good thing. We want to see Superman on the big screen as comic book fans. The problem is rather than giving us a REAL Superman movie. Instead of Superman fighting one of his regular villains, WB decides to take an idea that has been on the shelf since 2004 and put it on the screen rather than give Superman his own sequel.

I am all about a Justice League movie... Do it WB! My problem is the fact that WB obviously has no trust in any of their characters on the big screen other than Batman. And if you can't trust Superman of all characters what chance do we have to see a Flash, Nightwing, Green Lantern, or Wonder Woman movie?
WarnerBrother
WarnerBrother - 11/22/2013, 11:58 PM
@CPBuff22

You simply have no idea what villain Superman is battling in the sequel since he/she/it, hasn't been announced yet.

If Lex Luthor (which would be a good guess based on all the LexCorps easter eggs in MOS and the fact he is Superman's greatest enemy) is the villain, how would that not count as a "regular" Superman villain?

So what Batman is in the film.

As long as the events flow out of MOS and Superman is the main character,the film will be a Superman movie.

Is the Dark Knight Returns any less of a Batman story because Superman has a major role in it?

Having "trust" in characters beyond Batman is also not the issue since WB already gave us a second modern day Superman film (Remember Superman Returns) in ten years and MOS improved on that prior film at the box office.

The issue is, Superman,based off the combined performance of MOS and Superman Returns, clearly has a lower performance level then the Batman films (both Nolan's and Burton's if adjusted for inflation) and WB simply didn't see another Superman film,where he likely would face off with Lex Luthor anyway,performing anywhere near the Avengers sequel which so happens to be coming out the same summer.

If WB didn't "trust" Superman,they simply would have gone straight to a full blown Justice League film or gone back to solo Batman films.

Adding Batman as a supporting character isn't about lack of trust, its about killing two birds with one stone.

1: Its about punching up this Superman franchise to the billion dollar level by featuring Batman.

2: Its about using the established Superman franchise as a short cut to fleshing out the DCCU.

In television they do this all the time,its called a spin off.

Is the fact CW is introducing The Flash via the ARROW series a sign that CW doesn't trust that show,or is it simply the case the network wants to use a successful venue to expand their brand in a way they hope will boost their original property as well as building a new one?

We already saw a Green Lantern film, so it isn't a question about what Superman does that effects the rest of the DCCU. What does matter is introducing those other DC characters in a way that they click with enough people to warrant a sequel,which MOS did accomplish and Green Lantern didn't.

The Flash and Wonder Woman will/may have cameos in the MOS sequel to set
them up for future films, so what would create a better chance to see them get
that chance?

1: Having a cameo in a "real" Superman film (whatever that means) verses a "real" Superman villain (Lex Luthor?) that with a modest improvement over a first film with a "real" Superman villain (Zod) makes a domestic haul of about 315 million and 700 million WW?

OR

2: Having those same characters cameo in a "real" Superman film vs a "real" Superman villain (Lex Luthor,Metallo) that also happens to have a character with a much stronger box office history (freakin Batman) in a supporting role to boost ticket sales to a least over 400 million (factoring in a drop from TDKR because of no Bale or Nolan) and a billion ww?

If more people see a Man of Steel sequel because the new Batman is in it,how can that not be good for the chances of a Wonder Woman film or Flash solo film before a Justice League movie?
Forthas
Forthas - 11/24/2013, 7:45 AM
@ Nick56

I have heard the argument that the stories don't work. I don't see it. Both Man of Steel and Batman Begins were non~linear origin stories that exlore the motivation and personal struggles of both super heroes in their youth. Both movies deal with them essentially turning against the people who "made" them who they are. The movies were shot in the same style and feature highly acclaimed supporting actors. If you are suggesting that Batman is too "realsitic" then you did not hear Zack Snyder say he tried to make Man of Steel in a manner as though it was real. Likewise the Dark Knight movies have NUMEROUS fantastic moments that could only have come from comic books such as Bane punching and breaking concrete columns without so much as flinching to Batman essentially flying around Gotham City and in China.
MightyZeus
MightyZeus - 11/24/2013, 11:27 PM
I have no problem with the direction of the film. Not sure about Ben Affleck playing Batman hopefully he'll be good because everyone will of course be judging him as to what Affleck brings to the table for his portrayal of The Dark Knight.

Personally i've been waiting for a World's Finest film and for Batman and Superman to appear on screen together ever since Batman Begins. I'm just glad that this film is being made i trust Zack Snyder and his team to make this movie great.
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