Marvel Got it Right, DC...

Marvel Got it Right, DC...

Civil War is upon us and it's looking to be a success with critics and fans alike. This reception should make us all comic book geeks happy. It also had made me wonder as a DC fan, how Marvel got things so damn right and DC with equally great characters not so much. Here is what I came up with.

Editorial Opinion
By HeyWait - Apr 13, 2016 03:04 PM EST

Let me start by saying that I am not writing this to hurt the feelings fo DC fans. I am myself a DC fan, I grew up on steady diet of SuperFriends and the Legion of Doom, BTAS, STAS, JLA, JLU, etc. Sicne I have memory Superman has been my favorite fictional character - my grandparents were my real life ones -  and a model to follow (minus the flying - jumping from a 3 story balcony can hurt a lot). Even now, I still read way more DC than Marvel (Superman, Batman, Contantine, Dr. Fate, Suicide Squad, Aquaman, JLA, among others as compared to Thor, Dr. Strange and X-Men). However, if we are talking about cinematic universes (and those are the ones I am referrig from now on when I mention Marvel or DC) - damn! Marvel got it right. And DC... not so much, so far.

Go back to 2008 - How many of you knew who Iron Man was? - I know wrong crowd to ask - so let me rephrase: How many people on the street knew who Iron Man was? How many people knows today who Iron Man is? In the answer to these questions I think lays the key to Marvel success: Character development. Since the debut of Iron Man Marvel has taken us through 12 movies, built motivations, backstories and developed its charcaters and their places in a shared universe. DC has not, DC presented us with an stand alone film in MoS and tried to then incorporate that story into a shared universe as quickly as possible in BvS. This could have worked have the character development in those two movies been better, but not when they didn't give us charcters we can relate to or be inspired by. Which bring me to my next point...

Marvel want us to relate to its characters, to have fun with them, to gasp at their actions, follow their stories and relate to them. So far DC movies look more like a deconstruction of the genre... They want us to think what would happen if heroes walk the earth? They want us to be in awe of these demigod characters, but they don't give us a line to empathaize or to relate to them. Marvel so far involves everyone in their stories, DC invites you as the spectator of a grandiose opera, held together only by big unanswered questions and asthetics, but not a cohesive story. Which bring me to my next point...

Substance... Marvel movies have clear cut stories, yes they have twists and turns, but basically they are straight forward stories unified in a shared universe by minor plot points. Here asthetics, easter eggs, jokes are to further the story telling ,not the other way around. DC movies on the contrary seem to be constructed to fit an asthetic style and philosophy, in which the story takes second place to the message that wants to be sent... "the world is dark and super heroes - like those we loved a kids have no place in it"... By doing that they mistake our (at least my) love for the genre - I don't love comicbook characters because they can exist in the real world, I love them becuase they don't and they give me a place to escape when I don't want to know about politics, terrorism or Zika... they give us an unattainable reality, in which good is possible - A reality to strive to, not to deconstruct.

There are many ways to compare the universes, but I think I have said enough. Marvel has clearly shown a road to success, DC still has a few more chances before is left behind by WB. If the success of Civil War and failure of Batman v. Superman should teach DC something is to respect its characters and focus on story telling - not asthetics, not philosophycal questions. Question, plot points, easter eggs are all here to serve the story, to serve the character - not the other way around. DC doesn't need to go the Marvel way, but it needs to show us that they also have a way to draw us to its characters and make us care for their stories. I enjoyed both DC movies, but I think is was mainly out of the love I have for the characters involved and not so much for the actual movies - These characters can do, deserve much better.   

My hope is that Civil War is great, Suicide Squad is great, Dr. Strange is great JL is great, X-Men: Age of Apocalypse is great...you get where I am going with this. The more great comicbook movies we get the more we will enjoy, and the more we will get in the future. The success of Marvel  should only bring happiness to comic book fans. DC, may get there someday, but for that they need to change direction, respect the esence of their characters and imagine for a second there is a world where they can exist to give us hope not awe.  

Thanks for reading.
Take care -

PS1 - I'm sure some ppl will come here and tell us that Marvel movies are for kids - well taht's good kids love superhereos they sould be able to enjoy their movies without getting nightmares.

PS2 - I'm sure some other ppl will come here to tell us that DC is dead, they will gloat. I don't claim to understand this people we should be happy when any comic book movie does well and dissapointed when not.
 




 

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kong
kong - 4/13/2016, 4:55 PM
Not news
megabatfan
megabatfan - 4/13/2016, 5:22 PM
I'm a DCguy... But in all honesty, Marvel's characters have always been more relateable than DC characters. Superman is a dudley-do right alien, Batman a rich guy... Not much relation there compared to a financially strapped Peter Parker... The nerd in school Reed Richards, dealing with anger issues Bruce Banner, even the asshole behaviour of Tony Stark. Not saying ALL of Marvel's characters are more relateable, jus a bunch of them as compared to DC are
THEDARKKNIGHT1939
THEDARKKNIGHT1939 - 4/13/2016, 5:42 PM
This is just that time of the decade where DC are the losers and Marvel are the winners. The 2010s are the dark age for DC. Eventually they'll shine again, but probably not for a long time. Marvel had a dark age too from 2003-2010. It's the circle of life lol.
THEDARKKNIGHT1939
THEDARKKNIGHT1939 - 4/13/2016, 5:52 PM
I basically compare comic book movies to the business cycle. DC right now is in a depression, Marvel is in prosperity.
Diophantes
Diophantes - 4/13/2016, 6:00 PM
***BVS spoilers ahead***

I think DC/WB's biggest mistake is that they tried to play catch up and in the process sacrificed story, and/or like the poster said, character developement. I'm sure this is a conscious decision based on an assumption that everyone is already familiar with Batman and Superman, but that argument is a red herring imo and they still should have had at least 2 more movies in between MOS and BVS. What they did was essentially go from Iron Man straight to The Avengers without Nick Fury getting "the super secret boy band" together.

In my opinion, like in the Donnor movies, so you can get an understanding why he hates Superman so much, Lex should have been the villain in the first movie while you see Zod imprisoned. After this, you get to Zod in a sequel, plus a Batman movie that establishes that actor as the character, be it Afleck or whoever, plus Wonder Woman, plus Suicide Squad, plus the Flash.

Meanwhile, at the end of each individual movie you have a short teaser scene that shows a giant rock in space with a huge monster inside that is trying to punch it way out. The average audience member will have no idea what this is. Word of mouth spreads... it's this giant thing called Doomsday! Where did it come from? Who does it answer to? What will it do when it's unleashed? It might, oh I don't know, also drive comic sales for DC as well?

At this point, after people care about the characters and have been wondering about this monster punching it's way out of a giant space rock for about 2 or 3 years, THEN you have BVS or JL (why even have BVS in this scenario). Doomsday finally arrives, mayhem ensues, and when he kills Superman it actually means something because maybe we've grown attached to him by now. You also introduce Aquaman, Cyborg, and go from there, perhaps with the Death of Superman storyline (Cyborg Superman, Steel, Son of Krypton, etc). This is how you create an overarching story that audiences are invested in.

I also have to say that Hans Zimmer's scores for both MOS and BVS were, in my opinion, phoned in and very underwhelming. One of my favorite things about The Avengers was Alan Silvestri's score, especially the Avengers them itself. A really good score adds a lot; sometimes making a good movie great by dialing in your brain to the action onscreen.
01928401
01928401 - 4/13/2016, 6:58 PM
Here's why DC is "failing:" Zack Snyder.

That's it. That's literally the only reason.

You can look in depth at all the plans and all the characters and all the nonsense, but at the end of the day, there are only 2 existing DC films in the DCEU. Both are directed by Zack Snyder and both have his distinct smell lingering all around them.

DC is not failing. DC made a poor mistake in allowing this man to take the reigns, but their other movies will be fine.

If anyone actually thinks Wonder Woman, Suicide Squad, Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg will be bad films because "DC is trying to copy Marvel" or "the characters are not relatable," I cannot help but disregard any credibility. The films from here on out without Zack Snyder at the helm will most likely turn out fine.

Quit letting comic book politics cloud your judgment.

PS This is not in response to the article itself. More just a response to anti-DC crybabies and people who can't seem to understand what is happening.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/13/2016, 7:41 PM
@PietroJaximoff - I agree WB made a big mistake letting a director that seems to care more about aesthetics than story telling jump start their cinematic universe. They have very good looking visuals, but they lack character development and cohesive story telling. Hopefully, the others movie do well enough that Snyder gets some consultant for both JLs.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/13/2016, 7:47 PM
@NateBest- hey just wondering why comments from several ppl disappeared. Those ppl took the time to read my article, do I feel bad their comments were removed is there a way to fix that?

Thanks a ton :)
NateBest
NateBest - 4/14/2016, 12:35 PM
@HeyWait - I'm not sure (I didn't happen to see them). Were they trolling, fighting, etc.? It could be that the users themselves deleted them...

Note that when a comment is deleted, not only is it gone for good, it also takes all of the replies to the comment with it. My guess is that's what happened.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/14/2016, 12:42 PM
@NateBest - Hi thanks for taking the time to reply to my question. I didn't know that we had the ability to erase comments. I don't think they were trolling, but maybe others thought so and erased them.

Anyway, thanks for the info and take care :)
NateBest
NateBest - 4/14/2016, 1:21 PM
@HeyWait - Yes, the author of the post, the user who posted the comment and admin all have the ability to remove comments.
DerekLake
DerekLake - 4/13/2016, 8:14 PM
I think it's very simple, actually. Zack Snyder doesn't get superheroes. It has nothing to do with how Marvel is doing anything. DC's tone and approach could be just as compelling... in someone else's hands.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/13/2016, 8:25 PM
@DerekLake - I mostly agree, but it is also WB responsibility as they went with Snyder- my article I guess mainly list the consequences of that decision. Also I'm pretty sure that the desicion of jumping from MoS to BvS directly was at least shared by executives, so not all the blame can be put in Snyder. With regard to the characters they are awesome, but they are mishandled.

Take care-
Kyos
Kyos - 4/14/2016, 1:04 AM
@DerekLake - Some Zack Snyder quotes from the Watchmen era:

My mother saw I was into this comic called Heavy Metal magazine, so she got me a subscription. You could call it ”high-brow” comics, but to me, that comic book was just pretty sexy! I had a buddy who tried getting me into ”normal” comic books, but I was all like, ”No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, ”This is more my scene.”
_______

Everyone says that about [Christopher Nolan’s] Batman Begins. ”Batman’s dark.” I’m like, okay, ”No, Batman’s cool.” He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn’t, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that’s how that would go.
_______

About the violence: You have a scene in your movie where Dr. Manhattan incinerates a bad guy — and your camera dotes of the bloody, chunky aftermath. That’s pretty intense for a superhero movie.

That’s Superman gone bad. If Superman grabbed your arm and pulled really hard, he’d pull your arm out of your socket. That’s the thing you don’t see in a Superman movie. But in Watchmen, what you get is, like, ”I’m a Superman, and I really want to help mankind — but I just tore this guy in half by accident. People call me a ‘superhero,’ but I don’t even know what that means. I just blew this guy to bits! That’s heroic?”
MikeJulz87
MikeJulz87 - 4/14/2016, 4:03 AM
Civil war is currently fresh at 100% on RT. The rating will no doubt will fall in the coming weeks,but will still be a good if not a great rating at the end.

Compare that to BvS first day fresh rating in the 30s. SMH. Zack Snyder must go.
Forthas
Forthas - 4/14/2016, 7:06 AM
This was very well written and thought provoking. I have to agree with some on the site. The reason that DC is failing is because of bad decision making and this is after having the ground breaking Nolan films as a set up. On a daily basis I ask myself why a studio does everything it can to lose money for its shareholders by NOT incorporating their most successful DC films EVER and launching their universe around it. I wrote a piece on this site on June 5, 2013 titled...

"Not Including the Dark Knight Trilogy in a DC Universe is a Recipe for Disaster"

..and lo and behold ... it is a disaster! That article was based on common sense LOGIC! If you have a formula that people are responding favorably to...why move away from it? If you have a Batman that people have embraced....why reboot him? I for the life of me cannot understand the comical reasoning that is coming out of Warner Brothers for them to do this nor why their shareholders are not picketing outside the studio demanding a return to a successful franchise that was distinct from Marvel and among the best films in the genre.

You are correct about the lack of character development which DID occur in the Nolan films...even for the villains who would give long speeches about their quest for revenge, their desire to create chaos, or their intent to bring justice to the world through violent means. That is part of what made those movies great yet, Zack Snyder cannot understand this... he thinks cool fight scenes and brutal superheroes are what comic book fans want and movie goers will accept. I also suspect he lacks the skill to make this kind of movie where characters are developed. I was going to start this post with ... "I am also a DC fan" but I am finding it hard to do so with the direction that the films and to some extent the comics have gone.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/14/2016, 9:03 AM
@Forthas - Thanks for the kind comment. I think starting the DC universe around the Nolan Batman could have been great, but it was too hard to pull out and they would have to get rid of some of the realism yo which those movies are grounded. To do that they need Nolan or someone with his story telling capacity. They also need to find a way to recast joker, to beef up Batman do he is not overmatched in a world of superheroes and finally they need a good explanation on why no one helped at the siege of Gotham. I think if this was too difficult to pull at least they should have looked at what made those movies successful and apply it to their new universe: good story telling and compelling characters, yes they could build better action sequences and keep the "real world" scenario, but what draw ppl to the Nolan trilogy was the story telling. It's hard to fathom how no one at DC honed on that.
Forthas
Forthas - 4/14/2016, 10:22 AM
@HeyWait - Great observations. while I agree with you on a couple of points, I do have to disagree on others....

1) "it was too hard to pull out and they would have to get rid of some of the realism ... which those movies are grounded"

I agree slightly, but while I keep hearing these points about the Nolan films being too realistic they are in fact not really as grounded in reality as people claim. For example the device used to call swarming bats in Batman Begins is preposterous; Harvey Dent walking around without any skin on half his face was utter fantasy; and the Batmobile (the Tumbler) which was a glorified tank was able to jump from the rooftop of one building to another. If one thinks about it for a moment there are many instances of fantastic events, devices and people: The leg brace that "healed" Bruce Wayne and allowed him to kick through a brick object; Bane in his final fight with Batman able to punch through a brick column without flinching; the microwave emitter that zapped water into steam in seconds...all pure fantasy.

While things like having the Zeus of Greek mythology in a common universe may be tricky to do...I know for a fact it is possible to do in way that would preserve a level of plausibility that people would find acceptable. Just because someone like Zack Snyder claims that you cannot marry that world with the broader DC comics does not mean it can't be done. He is just not creative enough to come up with that way of doing it. I have seen it done in another creative format and it would have worked on film.

2) "They also need to find a way to recast joker"

I have argued that what they should have done was have actor Charlie Hunnam take up the Joker role that Heath Ledger made famous. Hunnam has "played crazy" before. He looks a LOT like Ledger (and with the Joker makeup on, I am not sure if people would be able to tell the difference) and he is a decent enough actor. Is he Heath Ledger...No!....but why would fans be upset that the role was recast...for obvious reasons WB would have had no choice but to do it.

3) "to beef up Batman do he is not overmatched in a world of superheroes"

This is an argument that just does not make any sense to me. While it is true that the Batman of the Nolan films is physically over matched in a world of super powered beings...so is the Snyder Batman and every other Batman that will follow. Doing chin ups and pounding on tires did not even the odds against Superman in BVS. There is NO WAY to make a human become equal to super powered beings without making them more than human which is not what Batman is.... Furthermore Marvel shows with each film humans fighting with and against godlike beings. The fact that Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Maria Hill are essentially people with guns (or bow and arrows) does not make them incapable of fighting with the likes of Loki or Ultron. I found it ironic that after all of the talk about needing a Batman who could fight alongside "gods' and Snyder's Batman finally being that Batman...during the fight with Doomsday in Batman v Superman all he did was run and avoid being killed and had to be saved by Wonder Woman at one point ...so what was the point?

4) "...and finally they need a good explanation on why no one helped at the siege of Gotham"

This is not a problem. The idea would be that there were no dedicated superheroes at that time. Either they had not yet acquired their powers yet (Green Lantern, Flash), were isolated and not concerned with things going on in the rest of the world (Aquaman, Wonder Woman); or were still avoiding attention (Superman) when it seemed as if Bane was promising to spare the city and the authorities were negotiating with him.

5) "I think if this was too difficult to pull..."

It is not too difficult to do. I 100% guarantee you that! Not only is it not difficult to do but it was pointed out to me that the Dark Knight Trilogy and Man of Steel (a movie I thought was an adequate companion film to the Nolan films) have an element to them that would open the door wide open to a Green Lantern in a creative way.

Thanks for your thoughts!
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/14/2016, 11:22 AM
@Forthas - @Forthas - Hey, nice answers.
Quick things. I agree, that they could have pulled it off. I still don't think it would have been as easy with the change of director.

1) with regard to reality - yes you are right no comicbook movie is realistic, not even realistic ones. My problem is that the person they chose to help the DCEU is not a story teller as much as a visual artist so I don't see him pulling this up - (so far he has not been able to tell cohesive stories, while aesthetics, although dark ahve been great)

2)Fair enough - recasting Joker is a must and unavoidable. Still the sahdow of the dark night it's quite long and it will always hang on any Joker, specially if we stay within the Nolan cannon.

3) sorry - I don't think I was clear here, I did not mean physically, but skill wise - we need a better fighter and a more competent detective - Batman is smart and a good fighter in Nolan's cannon - but we need himto be the best detective, one of the smartest ppl in the world and a superb fighter and stretegist for him to add something the other members of JL don't have. It can be done, but I think it would have to have been acknowledged.

4) Yes it is doable, I think Superman is th emost problematic still - if this is placed before MoS - you can argue he couldn't get there easily (no flight) but this is week - if nothing else I would expect him to quietly go and take Bane out. In fact this a problem I have with Superman in the DCEU his lack of action until he was 33 (check my editorial on the Kents and Superman in the DCEU if you are interested)

5) Yes - I think it would have been doable, if they have not met with rejection from Nolan/Bale (I think they wanted the trilogy to stand on its own). But even in that case if they have recast Batman, and put at the help a good creative story teller I think they could have started the DCEU from a far stronger position with respect to what they gave us.

Take care-
RaMan
RaMan - 4/14/2016, 12:42 PM
I'm Marvel/ DC fan. Let's make something clear, Batman v Superman is not a failed film. It just did not meet expectations. It still profited so far with over $280 mil.

It was expected to make $1.1 bil but with a 29% critic rating and 69% audience rating, what do you expect.

It was still a good movie, not great but good and is a success. Now WB have to revise their plan to make better quality DC films and that was already discussed in the media
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/14/2016, 12:48 PM
@RaMan - Hi man, yes I enjoyed BvS - for what it was, but it could have been so much better.
I don't considered 280M in profit a failure, I'll take that failure to my pocket any day of the week :), but I think BvS failed in 2 ways it didn't meet the financial/critical expectation that I am sure WB executives had for it. And it didn't energize/excited the general audience toward the DCEU.

Thnaks for reading and take care :)
GarthRanzz
GarthRanzz - 4/14/2016, 1:53 PM
But what if you are a comics fan and the Marvel movies really aren't for you? If you read Kingdom Come, Or Legion 5 Years Later, or Final Crisis, or Identity Crisis and consider these your favorite stories...the Marvel Studio way may not be for you. I mean I enjoy them, but certainly not to the degree I enjoyed V for Vendetta or Dark Knight Rises or Batman V Superman. So you are basically saying comic fans such as myself should have no movies to enjoy. If Warner Brothers adopted the storyline from the nineties where Superman programs his robots to patrol the earth, and they go to far and he does nothing....people on this site would freak the [frick] out, even though thats a legit from the comics story.

Not a chance will Marvel ever allow Pepper Potts to be raped, but you know it probably could happen in the DCEU with Sue Dibny. And for me, that's great. I don't really care if a movie makes 1.8 billion or 300 million. I only care if I enjoy it. I am going to go into Civil War not as a DC fan, but as a comic book fan. I already know its going to bother me that the movie doesn't address why Tony is not in jail for Ultron, why he has a cent to his name after all the civil suits from Avengers 2. It will take my enjoyment. For all the knocks of Iron Man 2, it at least addressed whose property the Iron Man suit was in a semi-realistic moment which is better.

I might just enjoy movies differently. Take the Force Awakens, it kind of bothers me, even though its the greatest thing. I loved the first 2/3 of the movie. But here is what bothers me about it. Rey gets a lightsaber and defeats a sith apprentice with her having no training. If Anakin in the Phantom Menace didn't go up to destroy the trade ship, and stayed on Naboo, and picked up QuiGon's light saber and was the one to cut Maul in half, everyone would call Lucas a hack for doing that....

but....

its more realistic than Rey due to the fact of his midi chlorine count, and at least he has been around jedi on star ships and even visited the Jedi Temple, plus had a few conversations with a Jedi master.

Yet sites such as this one, want me to believe Abrams is so much better than Lucas.

What's this got to do with anything?

I just wanted to point out, that us nerds have different tastes and some of us don't want the same cookie cutter predictability of other movies. I loved that Batman lost it mentally until the end of B V S. I am sorry some didn't get it. But Batman was flawed. I loved that it took death for Superman to become universally loved. It seems realistic to me.
GarthRanzz
GarthRanzz - 4/14/2016, 1:58 PM
@GarthRanzz - Oh and I really do back my cause....saw Batman V Superman 4 times already and promised the girlfriend, I would take her again.
HeyWait
HeyWait - 4/14/2016, 2:02 PM
@GarthRanzz - Hi thanks for reading- and the great post. My main point here is that DC should look st Marvel not on terms of style, but construction we can have a darker DC Universe, I'm all for it- but develop your characters and reflect who they are better. BTW you are completely right they don't need to looking at the Nolan trilogy as inspiration and recognizing that it success was because it was a well told tale with well developed characters and not the time of the movie would have been great. My problem is that the approach so far has been let's make something dark, very cool looking and the story seems to take second place to those concepts.

Take care-
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