ARROW Showrunner Marc Guggenheim Is Convinced Superhero Movies Are Heading Same Way As The Western

ARROW Showrunner Marc Guggenheim Is Convinced Superhero Movies Are Heading Same Way As The Western

There's an awful lot of talk about "superhero fatigue" in Hollywood, and Arrow showrunner Marc Guggenheim seems convinced that the genre will eventually go the same way as Westerns. Read on for details...

News
By JoshWilding - Aug 08, 2023 05:08 AM EST
Filed Under: Arrow
Source: The Aarthi and Siriam Show

Earlier this year, Arrow showrunner Marc Guggenheim expressed his disappointment that DC Studios hadn't enlisted him to be part of its group of writers crafting the new DCU. 

After taking charge of pretty much the entire Arrowverse on The CW, it's easy enough to understand why Guggenheim felt he could be useful to James Gunn and Peter Safran. Now, though, he appears to believe the clock could be ticking for the superhero movie genre. 

Talking on The Aarthi and Siriam Show podcast (via The Direct), he acknowledged that the current crop of Marvel and DC titles in theaters are "not great" and added, "I think superhero movies are going to become like what Westerns are, which is...it’s a genre that you revisit every now and again."

"I question how much of this is superhero movie fatigue and how much of this is not-great-superhero-movie fatigue."

"One of the most successful movies of this year is ‘Across the Spider-Verse’ which is a [movie] with all the tropes including the multiverse and it’s a huge hit," Guggenheim continued. "Why is it such a huge hit? Because it’s done so well. I personally don’t think of it in terms of the audience is tired or not tired."

"The audience is basically saying to us, you have got to justify the experience of going out to the theatre and seeing this as a movie, as opposed to waiting a couple of months to watch it on Disney+."

Guggenheim is right that superhero movies aren't necessarily the problem, but the bad ones are. Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania kicked off 2023 on a disappointing note, while Shazam! Fury and the Gods and The Flash ranged from average to dreadful. 

2024 is looking a little more promising but inevitable delays caused by the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes are on the horizon. With any luck, DC Studios will deliver the fresh start that franchise needs, while Marvel Studios needs to make getting back to the glory days of the Infinity Saga a priority. 

Do you think superhero movies are here to stay? 

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DrTragggerr
DrTragggerr - 8/8/2023, 5:33 AM
Dingus
Dingus - 8/8/2023, 5:34 AM
Weirdly spot on observation by the man who made arrowverse.
Se4M4NSt4ine
Se4M4NSt4ine - 8/8/2023, 5:36 AM
Basically, quality over quantity. Not anything, anyone’s not said before.

He’s true about Spider-verse, I’ll go as far as to say those are the template movies to follow right now, even if it’s animation.
Dingus
Dingus - 8/8/2023, 5:39 AM
@Se4M4NSt4ine - Imo I dont think there should be template movies. I think that would just lead to same place.
SonOfAGif
SonOfAGif - 8/8/2023, 5:37 AM
Because mediocre to garbage quality CW superhero adaptions didn't contribute to the general audience getting tired of low budget productions with phone in performances and inconsistent storytelling.
CoHost
CoHost - 8/8/2023, 5:37 AM
We need the CBM version of Unforgiven.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 8/8/2023, 5:59 AM
@CoHost - Absolutely ! The closest we might have been was Logan, but a true reflection of what 'superheroes' really mean, without the cookie cutter filter, both good and bad.

Great, now I wanna watch Unforgiven again...
MaxPaint
MaxPaint - 8/8/2023, 7:43 AM
@CoHost -
ModHaterSLADE
ModHaterSLADE - 8/8/2023, 5:38 AM
I mean given the over-saturation of superhero projects I can see this happening, especially since a good chunk of the projects are of dwindling quality nowadays.
Truoptimusprime
Truoptimusprime - 8/8/2023, 5:39 AM
I feel like both marvel and DC hit their pinnacles already. Arrowverse for DC and Infinity Saga for Marvel, thats it. Their is little steam left in this genre. Peter Safron and James Gunns Superman is gonna be medicore at best, especially in boxoffice numbers.
karazorel
karazorel - 8/8/2023, 5:56 AM
Steven Spielberg said the same thing nearly 10 years ago. I enjoy/love the comic book/superhero genre but I know one day it will come to an end. Everything comes and goes whether it’s movies, gadgets, toys etc.
TheUnworthyThor
TheUnworthyThor - 8/8/2023, 7:28 AM
@karazorel - Well we’re going on 80 years of superhero stories but I’m sure this next generation of kids will be the ones that don’t like them.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 8/8/2023, 6:10 AM
I hope the time of "If there's a comic book of it, it needs a movie" fades away. For a while, it seemed studios thought they JUST COULDN'T FAIL with any comic book properties, so they tried to do everything under the sun. Suicide Squad (x2), Shazam, Cloak and Dagger, Inhumans, Blue Beetle... these are more derivative of the genre than actually helping to focus it. I'd even throw Invincible in there. Cookie cutter, predictable, derivative unoriginal trash.

Not every side characters 'need' solo movies. Slow down and go back to the drawing board. Superhero fatigue might be true, but if you make a good movie out of it, people will still pay to see it, like ATSV just showed.
TheUnworthyThor
TheUnworthyThor - 8/8/2023, 7:26 AM
@OrgasmicPotatoe - Not that I have anything against Spider-verse, it’s great, but I just don’t see how a movie that grossed less than Guardians Volume 3, less than Thor Love and Thunder, less the Multiverse of Madness, less than Wakanda Forever, less than The Batman proves anything.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 8/8/2023, 11:06 AM
@TheUnworthyThor - Sure, if you compare it to live action movies, which have a tendency to do more than animated ones. There's still a lot of people for who animated automatically equals 'childish' and will not watch them on that basis. The fact that ATSV doubled the first one's box-office shows that there is still interest in superhero movies, they just gotta be actually good, not just run of the mill okay.
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 8/8/2023, 6:17 AM
Said the same thing not so long ago, but then in comparison to musicals (amd maybe horror as well). Just don't know what the next big genre is gonna be
TheUnworthyThor
TheUnworthyThor - 8/8/2023, 7:15 AM
You notice how people always say the way of the western and not some other genre? Why is that? If it were really this thing that happens all the time surely occasionally they would pick a different genre just at random. But they don’t. Why? Because it’s bullsh*t. There is a million police procedurals on TV and have been for decades. There are a ton of medical dramas. Spy movies and TV shows got popular in the 60’s and we still have Mission Impossible and Lioness now. Dramas, comedies, horrors, biopics, war movies, action movies, they just keep making them. Some have highs and lows but they are always there.

Westerns had a particular problem. They became increasingly less popular during the sixties to a large extent by two factors. During the 60’s there were many social movements, civil rights and the like, and the idea of these movies about these people coming in a taking over these people’s lands and painting native Americans as the enemy became increasingly less appealing. But also the space race unlocked new ideas of heroes and where stories could explore. And the technology of movie making kept increasing allowing for different kinds of action and adventure storytelling.
VictorAlonzo
VictorAlonzo - 8/8/2023, 7:38 AM
@TheUnworthyThor - Great point.
MaxPaint
MaxPaint - 8/8/2023, 7:50 AM
@TheUnworthyThor - True, also may I add that the death of John Ford and John Wayne getting old didn't help to extend the success of the westerns through the 70's and 80's.
Fogs
Fogs - 8/8/2023, 7:56 AM
@TheUnworthyThor - I guess the Western comparison happens cause, according to older people I know, in the 50's and 60's it was absolutely dominant and guaranteed success. Basically every single studio would rely on the genre to bite a piece of the cake, some with better results than others. Until some day people stopped caring so much about them and the actors started pursuing other types of films - sci-fi, for example, which was kickstarted in '68 by 2001.

If we change western to CBM and the decades to 10's and 20's... Here we are, it's almost a carbon copy of the status quo westerns had, yes. But we don't know if they'll end up the same, I guess that's your main concern with this comparison, right?
TheUnworthyThor
TheUnworthyThor - 8/8/2023, 8:31 AM
@Fogs - There are more problems with the western comparison than just the the reasons for the western decline and the lack of other genres to really point at. Perhaps chief among them is we really don’t get that many superhero movies. The 6-10 we get a year is just nothing compared to westerns at their height or many other genres.
Fogs
Fogs - 8/8/2023, 9:45 AM
@TheUnworthyThor - Sure, yeah. They were cheaper, too.

But I understand the reference, I think it has its place.
Let's see what happens in the next years.
marvel72
marvel72 - 8/8/2023, 7:53 AM
I do think people are getting tired of comic book movies and shows,a lot of people left them behind after Avengers:Endgame.

The shows on Disney Plus have been bad for the most part and the movies have been pretty shit in phase 4 and the start of phase 5.

I use to be an avid fan of the MCU, I saw everything on the day of release but now I can pick and choose what I see because most of it is crap to be honest.

DC is the same, hopefully the reboot brings new life into the comic book genre.
Fogs
Fogs - 8/8/2023, 7:58 AM
@marvel72 - Couldn't write it better, bud. 100%.
marvel72
marvel72 - 8/8/2023, 8:26 AM
@Fogs -
DocSpock
DocSpock - 8/8/2023, 8:07 AM


Who wants the stink of the DEI rainbow CW dogsh!t he and Gay Berlanti pooped out for a decade in their big screen movie?

These things were so badly done that they seriously offended gay & mixed race families because of how pitifully they handled those issues.

And they just got worse and worse as the years slowly painfully drug on.
slickrickdesigns
slickrickdesigns - 8/8/2023, 8:36 AM
Guy just copying Spielberg.
I believe it’s bad movie writing fatigue. If you make a good movie then people will want to see it. Studios like Marvel and DC were banking on people just wanting to see the universe and characters regardless of the story. Now they’re finding out when you make a poorly written movie or get bad cgi to pump out a film faster the fans are going to reject it. Movies like the Batman and Guardians vol 3 prove it’s not super hero fatigue and movies like Love n Thunder, quantumania, Black Adam, Shazam and Flash prove poorly planned/written movies can turn fans off from watching the films.
Love n Thunder was supposed to have all the ingredients of a marvel hit. But due to bad writing and overly comedic style it ruined what should’ve been a more dramatic story involving Gorr.
I think if they improve the quality of writing the fans will return to watching and enjoying the films. If the studios decide to sacrifice quality to save money or pump out more quantity then they will continue to lose fans. Let’s hope Marvel really does make a change for quality over quantity and let’s hope Feige gets back to quality control.
slickrickdesigns
slickrickdesigns - 8/8/2023, 8:43 AM
Rant acknowledged and I feel better now
HeavyMetal4Life
HeavyMetal4Life - 8/8/2023, 8:57 AM
I dont think that's true right now, but maybe in 5 years it could be. The entire genre reached a pinnacle and climax with Infinity War and Endgame, and since then there have only been a few great movies (for me, No Way Home and Wakanda Forever), some pretty good ones, and then a number of average to below average films. Reaching those heights again will be very difficult. For a bit I was thinking Secret Wars could do that again, but I'm not sure tbh.

It's not just CBMs that are suffering right now, the entire box office this year has been struggling. But there is certainly a crossroads of sorts between quantity and quality for CBMs. And to be honest, the pandemic helped allow for lazier and lower quality writing and output. There is a way to fix the problems, at least on the MCU side of things. But the studios have their work cut out for them.
edj999
edj999 - 8/8/2023, 9:16 AM
The reason that there is fatigue is that there are too many same type of movies, be it superhero or other types. Why was there such a long time between Scream 4 and 5, there were to many type of Scream movies because they were popular. As soon as something hits everybody wants a piece of the pie, why release 3 movies each year if you can release 6. It's normal that some will be of less quality than others. You make Scary Movie as a parody on Scream and it works, so if it works, we are going to make Scary Movie 2 with more of the same and we are going to continue to make them until nobody watches part 5 and then we get it and we stop making them. The same with Police Academy movies, they were fun movies at first, but not after seven of them with the same type of story.

Superhero movies work if done well, Disney+ series can work if done well, but not if they are rushed to make as many content as possible each year. It's the curse of streaming services, you have to have content to justify the monthly price you charge. I have faith in James Gunn that he can bring some fresh ideas to the genre. I haven't lost faith in Marvel either I think they just need to go back to the drawing board and see what they want and try to listen what the audience wants. They have many good characters left at Marvel and at DC, they took a big risk with Iron Man, before there were only Batman and Superman movies. Just take your time, don't rush it, who knows who will be the next department to go on strike.
LeonNova
LeonNova - 8/8/2023, 11:19 AM
IDK if Marvel will reach IW/Endgame level heights again, but they can definitely bounce back. Getting the Fantastic Four and X-Men right is gonna be key for their next decade of storytelling. As for DC, if Gunn can deliver with Superman: Legacy, we might see a rebound for then as well.
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