Will Avengers Be The Greatest Comic Book Movie Of All Time Or....

Will Avengers Be The Greatest Comic Book Movie Of All Time Or....

A jumbled mess?

Editorial Opinion
By LMFAO - Sep 09, 2010 02:09 PM EST
Filed Under: Avengers
Source: comicbookmovie.com

Now, before i write this i want everyone to know i do not think The Avengers movie will be horrible, or even bad, I'm simply writing this from the point of view of what we've seen, what we have heard and what might happen.

Having said that, I have heard many people claim that The Avengers movie will be the pinnacle of CBMs, but will it really? Are we over hyping this movie and dooming it before it even starts filming? That's for you to decide, I'm simply going to go through past multiple superhero movies, what we have seen from Iron Man 1 and 2, and what we have heard so far from the storyline of the upcoming Avengers' movies (Captain America, Thor, and Avengers)

X-Men 1,2,3,Origins:
If we look to the past to see the future, we might be a little more worried than optimistic. The X-Men movies are a shinning example of why we might be in for a rude awakening. X 1 was a good movie, started off with a good story and good character development as a whole, X2 followed with the best of the series and added to character development (mainly Wolverine) and added new characters into the mix, X3 as we all know went over board with characters, didn't have any character development and the story lacked. Wolverine was the worst of the 4 in my opinion and was mainly the fault of character development issues and liberties taken with certain characters that didn't sit well with people (Blob, Deadpool). I bring up these movies because they were the first to have multiple characters in the same movie and for the first half did fairly well, but because of too many characters and lack of attention to detail, suffered in the second half of the franchise. Now, i know that marvel has control of the characters in the Avengers, i doubt they will take many liberties they don't feel isn't necessary. Having said that will the Avengers be able to give enough time to the individual characters in the Avengers movie? I don't know, honestly with the big names and HUGE characters in this movie, it is going to be really hard giving the same amount of camera time to Hawkeye than to Iron Man. With Evans, Hemsworth and RDJ all in one movie with the respected characters, will it be too much for one movie? Not to mention Black Widow, Nick Fury, Hulk, and Hawkeye all in the same movie. Will we have the same issues we did with X-Men and focus too much on one character? I hope not but it's up to you to decide.

Iron Man 1 and 2
We all love these movies, i know i love them, although the second wasn't as good as the first for one reason, it didn't focus enough on Iron Man. The whole movie i wasn't focused on Iron Man, i was focused on Avengers and what in this movie will tie in with the others. I didn't have that feeling in Iron Man 1 because I didn't know about the Avengers until after the movie. Now, how will Captain America and Thor feel? Will they have the prequel to the Avengers feel or the Iron Man 1 feel? Will they feel like their own movies or part of the bigger picture? Will we as fans get a real origins movie with no hints towrd future movies to distract us? I don't know, it's up to you to decide.

Avengers
As we all know this movie will be huge. It will seal the future of Marvel films fate either bad or good for a long time. If it is good, Marvel is top dog for years to come. If it is bad, Marvel will have wasted millions on prequel movies leading up to the Avengers and the money they spent on the Avengers movie. It's really scary to think about honestly. Marvel has put all of their eggs in one basket and if they drop that basket, we as fans will be very upset. Sure, we get to see some of the biggest characters together on film but at what cost. Like i said, if it's good we have nothing to worry about. But what if it's bad, what happens to the future movies in the Marvel Universe yet to be made? The individual movies of the Avengers probably wont suffer much, but what about Avengers 2 or other character movies like Iron Fist, Deadpool, Dr Strange? Will Marvel shy away or push forward? Again, I don't know, but i hope they continue no matter what, but who knows...

I want to hear your opinions. I know the majority will say I'm being negative and pessimistic, but am I? Or am i saying things people don't want to hear? Either way, like it or not in the next two years we will know how these movies pan out, good or bad.

P.S. If Avengers is bad, what happens to future Justice League plans? Does this movie effect DC too?

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airbeyonder18
airbeyonder18 - 9/9/2010, 2:54 PM
Interesting thoughts, man. Well done..
blah
blah - 9/9/2010, 3:12 PM
they had better use the leader in this movie. they left him hangin in the end of the incredible hulk movie, and i have been waiting to see him cause some trouble in the films since the first hulk film.
ecksmanfan
ecksmanfan - 9/9/2010, 3:35 PM
You can guaran-damn-tee The Avengers will have an effect on DC/WB and their plans for Justice League. They will be able to see what works and what doesn't or if the idea of a team-up film even works. There is a lot resting on the Avengers films as well as Marvel films and especially Joss Whedon.

I'm doing my best to keep my expectations at a reasonable level until I see Thor and Captain America. If they go the same direction as Iron Man 2 did, heavy on the Avengers and light on the title character, then who knows. I think we have to just sit back and watch how the whole thing plays out.
TheDarqueOne
TheDarqueOne - 9/9/2010, 3:42 PM
What will determine the fate of the Avengers is not us sad to say. What matters is how the general public reacts. The single biggest factor in a movie's success is the one thing that nobody can either control or predict: the enviroment when it is released.

I have heard some very intelligent people argue that if the Harry Potter books had been released even as little as 10 years earlier none of us would ever have heard of them. There are many series of kid's books that are just as good but none of them even came close to what Potter did.

Personally I don't buy into the too many characters worry. All movies are filled with characters and the fact that some of ours happen to be SuperHeros just should not matter. I heard someone on this Site say something like

'The average person is not going to know who Nick Fury is based on the movies.'

So? They know all they need to know at this point. He is the Director of SHIELD and they are the ones putting together the Avengers. They will learn more over time of course. But of all the questions I have been asked about CBMs over the years (and that is quite a lot because I am known to be both interested and reasonably knowledgeable about them) not one person has ever asked: So who is the Nick Fury character?

The depressing truth is that if you want to make a Billion $$ you keep it as simple as possible. 1 Hero, 1 Villain, and 1 Girl (ideally she should be loved by both Hero and Villain). That is what brings in the hordes. You can actually chart the intellectual depth of a lot of movies just by comparing their box office takes. Strange but true.

I just cannot believe that people who love Comics could fall into that same sort of mentality. Large groups with lots of side-characters have been the staple of the stories for decades. If we just looked at supers like people with odd jobs then the need for detailed backgrounds becomes less necessary. Most movies don't spend huge amounts of time on backstories and CBMs should not always have to either.

I will admit a personal bias that once again sets me at odds with a lot of people here. I hate Origins. I hate that 1/2 of the first movie about any Hero has to be how they got to be a Hero. To me that very convention is every bit as cheesy as Superman's shorts and tights look. I love Superman and more than that I respect what he represents but he is stuck in the past as far as his costume goes. Because of this I think he is far less than he could, and should be. But hey that is just my personal opinion and I do not try to force agreement on anybody.

Back to your Article...

The real scary question is that if either Thor or Captain America do badly will The Avengers even get made? It probably will because of the times involved. Probably.

Cap is about a sure a thing as you get in this business. Good or not is still a totally open question but profitable is likely. Thor though now that is a much bigger gamble. I expect it to turn a profit but beyond that I have no idea whatsoever.

joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/9/2010, 4:57 PM
hmm, well i think that as far as character development goes, i dont think that will even be a factor.

we will have already seen all these characters except hawkeye and know their stories, this is more about the relationship between the characters. and how their egos come together

also, marvel is too blame for [frick]ing up iron man 2, they made favreau focus on the avengers. he didn't want to, and as a result of their meddling he said he may not want to return for iron man 3. (i personally think if they had added twenty minutes to the movie and used the extra time to strengthen and develop each scene it would have been perfect)

i also dont get the big deal with 'too many characters' like TheDarqueOne said, every movie has a bunch of characters, and in these they just happen to be superheroes. i think that people get annoyed with the 'too many characters' thing because the extra characters are interesting and they wanted to know more about them
TheDarqueOne
TheDarqueOne - 9/9/2010, 5:19 PM
@Sooner09

I think SuperHero lore is deeply embedded in our culture actually. Right now what we have is Hollywood taking from the Comics what it sees as the big sellers. You have people as talented as Nolan who can only see the same basic story as workable. That is just so limited.

As long as those ideas rule then CBMs will have a good run and then fade down to a minor genre. If however the CBMs can really carve out their own unique place in the genres they can go on forever.

Even if you just limit yourself to what has been written as a starting point the amount of Stories to be told is endless. But to do that they have to evolve and establish their own rules. Imagine a long running Marvel Universe series of films that mimic the MU itself. Tell big stories, tell little character studies if you want, but slowly weave them together over the years. It is not simple and I am not sure Marvel really has the ideas right but they seem to be thinking about it.

flames809
flames809 - 9/9/2010, 7:57 PM
SOONER- haven't you seen grown ups 5 big stars and the movie was good all the stars had there screen time they needed. but talking about the avengers yea is over hype and yea the audience are the fate for this movie and all the other movie that will come out in theaters next year an da year after which they all will do good and the audience will like it, cause all the audience want to see is action thats what attract people to hulk and ironman, fantastic four, blade, daredevil, batman, spiderman, punisher, Elektra, star trek, and superman because of the action they saw in the trailer and thought to them self it will be a good movie to see thats what the main audience want to see is action in a movie and comedy in it and some drama and a good story and the little kids want to see the superheros so da parents take the kids to the movie. these are why the audience will go see all the cbm that come out.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 9/10/2010, 2:08 PM
Well, Marvel has set the stage for success about as well as possible. The IM series and Hulk movies were good while also setting up for "something bigger." I know that a lot of you had some issues with IM2 and many point to the "too much Avengers" as the cause. I actually didn't think there was a lot of Avengers in it. The issue came from the Iron Man side of things. In IM, Tony has a clear-cut goal: he needs to set things right that he let go wrong. What exactly was he trying to do in IM2? Beat Hammer? Fend off Vanko's vengeance? Come to grips with his mortality? THAT, to me, was the key issue with IM2: lack of a clear moral goal.

Thor and Cap look to be shaping up well, at least from what I've seen and heard so far. I'm actually comfortable with the same amount of "Avengerishness" that was in IM2 in either one them or even both (although it would be more appropriate in Cap.) The comparison to the X-men films is a little bit of apples to oranges. Yes, they both feature teams, but X-men went team, then solo. The unique draw of the Avengers is that they are taking what should be already successful solo characters and crossing them over. The novelty of this on movie goers should not be underestimated. This has never really happened before in films, afaik. Also, X-men is Fox, and that does in fact make a HUGE difference. I'm sorry, but it does.

The Avengers project itself has a writer/director that has: experience with the source material; experience outside the source material; and success at balancing ensemble casts. So, while I know that there are those that dislike Whedon in this role, face it, he IS quite qualified for the job.

I think a good approach to take as a fan getting ready for Avengers is this: don't go to see if this is the greatest CBM ever because they finally managed to make the first major crossover movie; instead, go see what should be a good movie that ought to be cool since it is the first major crossover movie.
marvel72
marvel72 - 9/10/2010, 3:22 PM
i would like it to be,but i can't see it.

1.watchmen
2.the dark knight
3.the avengers
flames809
flames809 - 9/10/2010, 4:05 PM
Sturmpionier- actually no it don't fox and x-men don't make a huge difference, cause fox showed marvel a team of heros can work. and this film can suck or be bad it don't matter if you have a director that know his shit, the movie can suck cause it's his first time doing something big like this. and bet is that batman 3 will be the smash hit of 2012 and then probably superman reboot cause it has nolan guiding it.
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/10/2010, 4:48 PM
Sooner, everything you just said is completely doable. the clash of the egos will run throughout the movie obviously.

they only need to introduce hawkeye, the hulk, and the villain(s) (and they only need one scene to link the hulk in)

development of the characters should be a natural occurrence throughout the movie

that leaves the actual story: the villain(s) and their scheme can be done over the course of the movie, while the avengers do their thing. there's is probably enough time to fit three fight scenes in with all that stuff going on.

as for the dark knight, i didnt think it was rushed after two face was introduced. forgive me if im wrong, but i think you just wanted to see more of him because he is interesting, or you did not want him at all.
they had to change their whole game plan when ledger died. they could not have given two face his own movie without the joker being in it, and replacing ledger would be giving us either a different expression of the joker, or an obvious imitation

also, two face was not a villain in the dark knight, he was a product of the joker, and all they did in the last part of the movie was show us what the joker did to them, how he destroyed the trifecta of gordon, batman, harvey. nolan's two face would not be good for a whole movie imo

also this movie may fail in our (the cb fans), but it wont in the eyes of the public because all they will think is 'holy shit, i just saw iron man, captain america, thor, and the hulk in one mother[frick]ing movie!!!!'

"if it succeeds they will say oh my god amazingly well done, lets see some more!!!!!" if it fails they will say "its not supposed to be about the story its about shoving this shitload of characters into one movie with epic action scenes, lets see some more!!!!!"

joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/10/2010, 4:54 PM
*our opinion
antonio
antonio - 9/10/2010, 5:53 PM
i still think that thor will chrush every marvel movie ever made.at least,up until cap and avengers made. i think they wont make it a cluster [frick] of a movie.

Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 9/11/2010, 5:51 PM
@fangz Yeah, just because there is a large ensemble cast doesn't mean that the story has to be all over the place. Your example of Star Wars is great. Even though it had lots of characters, the theme of the movie was tight, and precise: "Sacrifice much to end a tyranny." The Lord of the Rings had a similar ensemble approach to a simple, timeless theme: "Sacrifice much to fight off evil." Whedon's ensemble film Serenity, which didn't do that well financially but I really liked, had a large and complex cast and had a tight theme as well: "no matter what, do what's right."

My guess is, based of what Whedon has mentioned in a couple of interviews, the Avengers will have something like this for a theme: "though you are selfish, proud, or otherwise a loner, you need to work to together for the greater good."
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/11/2010, 6:27 PM
Sturmpionier - i think the theme in Iron Man 2 was supposed to be what legacy is he going to leave (as he realizes and comes to terms with his own mortality)
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 9/11/2010, 7:03 PM
@joekerr93 Yeah, I think that's a good one, and you can make a good case that it was the intended one. I just think it got a little muddled and was hard to pick out from some of the other stuff going on in his life. The theme needs to be clear and pretty constant. Hopefully Thor, CA, and Avengers will stick to that idea.
flames809
flames809 - 9/12/2010, 9:23 AM
fangz- i think thats a bad example because to me Luke was the main character it had one main character, 1 main villain, 2 romance couple, a teacher who was only there for a while , and robots as side characters and probably the audience also think Luke is the main character cause it was all about him and his journey not about the other characters.
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/12/2010, 9:49 AM
flames809 -

This is basically how i would compare them, because of the type of character each person was:

Tony Stark - Luke - the lead protagonist

Rhodey - Han - the best friend, right hand man

Pepper Potts - Leia - the female lead, main support for the lead

Whiplash - Vader - the bad guy

Justin Hammer - One of the Moffs, or Sidious coz he is the controlling factor behind Whiplash

Black Widow - Chewbacca - for the visually exciting ass kicking sidekick

Nick Fury - Obi Wan - the wise or i guess knowledgable informative type character for the lead
flames809
flames809 - 9/12/2010, 10:33 AM
joker- wow thats a good comparing
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/12/2010, 9:13 PM
fangz

- I dont think that Loki should be the villain, coz he will already be in Thor, and if Thor can beat him in his own movie why is there any need for the Avengers?
I think it has to be a large threat like the Skrulls, something that is too big for one hero to handle, and that requires everyone to band together just this once. Because if they got together to beat Loki, then they would do that for every villain, and all the individual movies would cease to exist. They should only come together in this movie and any sequels to combat some huge epic threat. And i think a secret alien invasion of Skrull would provide that.

- With the Avengers i dont think its the type of movie that CAN or even SHOULD have just one main character, it should be Cap, Iron, and Thor as a trifecta and the movie should be focused on their relationship with each other and the other Avengers.

- As opposed to the journey of one character, it should be the coming together and acceptance of one another

- Favreau wanted to do Mandarin in the first movie, but they changed it when Jeff Bridges was cast, and then he wanted him in the 2nd one, but Marvel told him to focus on the Avengers and again he had to change it. Mandarin and Whiplash together could/would have been perfect
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/12/2010, 9:23 PM
fangz - a problem i have with CBM's is that they never plan ahead. they pick a director, he picks some villains and then makes his movie. then after a while, they think of something to add and just tack it on to the end, and hope it sticks.
- what they should have done is realized they would make an Avengers movie before Iron Man came out, and then stuck very subtle references into it. They could have alluded to the Pyms in Iron Man 1 or 2 as fellow scientists. The only reason we have any references in Iron Man and Incredible Hulk is because Favreau and Downey thought it would be fun for the fans. Marvel never planned on doing Avengers until they saw Favreau's post credits scene with Fury.

What these studios (Marvel, DC) need to do is plan ahead how each series will affect the others in regards to continuity and the overall Universe, and then slip references and set ups throughout each movie in each series. Then when they decide to do some overarching story like the Avengers or Justice League, all the pieces are already there. Batman is aware of Superman, Thor and Iron Man know each other, etc.

They rarely plan each series out within itself. The only instance i can think of is the Lizard in Spiderman, he has been hinted at for three movies, so a natural occurrence is possible and fluid (although now its irrelevant coz of the reboot)

Sorry to start ranting about this to you guys, it just bothers me. I hope to be a director one day, and if i ever am in charge of a superhero franchise/series/saga(whatever) i will make sure i plan out the entire series before hand, with all the references and open possibilities there.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 9/13/2010, 3:00 PM
I think Loki will manipulate the Hulk early in the film causing the Avengers to form. Then, I think the main threat will reveal itself (Skrulls, Thanos, etc?) giving the Avengers a chance to solidify their relationship and (hopefully) break from Shield to form a group on their own.
Of course all of this based on pure guesswork.
flames809
flames809 - 9/13/2010, 3:25 PM
fanz- my bet is cap since he awakes to this new world and he is trying to fit in and is wondering what happen all those years and he may think the war is going on. so my money is on him.
joekerr93
joekerr93 - 9/13/2010, 3:45 PM
i just hope Hulk under Loki isn't the major threat though, because once again that would mean that the Hulk is stronger than all the other heroes put together.

i like what you said Sturmpionier. Loki/Hulk would be a nice 1/5 of the movie to dedicate to the formation of the team, and introduce everyone to each other. then the Skrulls could show up and KA, or maybe they have already shown up...
TheDarqueOne
TheDarqueOne - 9/16/2010, 4:55 PM
Pretty sure there will just be one major Villain or small group. Getting everyone together will probably take up a fair amount of time.
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