Champions Battle Poll (Week 8: Round 2)

Fists

DD

Savage Dragon

Iron Fist vs Richard Strange -- I can see how Fenix thought this would be an interesting fight; IF can harness his chi into powerful blows, and Strange can harness his chi to become hard as a rock. But IF's chi-strike can penetrate steel. I don't think a rock-hard Strange (mind out of the gutter, boys) could handle it. IF by knock-out.

Batgirl vs DD -- I dig Cassandra Cain Batgirl but a lot of martial artists with years of training can read body language and predict moves (hell, that's one of the main focuses of martial arts, reading your opponent) so I don't count that as anything special. I think DD's the better martial artist (easily one of Marvel's top 2 or 3 hand-fighters) plus the edge his senses give him, including increased speed and agility, would be too much for BG to handle. BG would put up a good fight but ultimately DD gets the win.

Savage Dragon vs Lizard -- Dragon's at least twice as strong, bulletproof AND has crazy regenerative abilities, is an expert h2h fighter...I could go on. He'd one-shot Lizard and be home in time for Aimee Mann on the Late Show.

Just saying.

@fenix122

Well if you've read farther I went on to state that her master in both known and unknown martial arts and her ability to read body movement is why I gave her the win ;)

@unknownfacts
Panther and Wolverine both claimed to have mastered all styles of martial arts and combat, known and unknown.

As for the whole body language thing, about sending the opponents next move. First off, this is a central part of all martial arts so it's not THAT big of a deal. But besides that, nobody senses body movements and patterns better than DD. Hello! Super senses.

@JuggyPunch
Haha, you seem like a funny guy. Yeah I meant to say SENSING.

@LoudLon
Well, here's what I think. I'll use Black Panther as an example, it's stated that he knows every martial art that is recognized by society as a fighting style, AND some that aren't recognized by general society. That's the way I took it when they said he knows unknown styles too.

hey, speaking of fights, anybody on here grab injustice yet?? awesome game..i recommend going with batman, green arrow, aquaman or nightwing as your go to guys....

Well, that's the funny thing about Black Panther. No knock on him at all, I'm a big fan of classic Black Panther (his stretch in the Jungle Action books was some of the best-written stuff of its time) but him knowing every form of martial art is a relatively new thing (meaning the last ten years or so). Iconic BP was a master of the Wakandan style of martial art, which was a cat-like fighting style which incorporated his enhanced agility and acrobatic ability. But it being stated that he's a master of every form of martial arts is, to me, every bit as ludicrous as saying Batman has mastered 127 styles. It would take multiple lifetimes for such a thing, even if you're a natural-born martial arts phenom.

BP's a keen strategist and tactician but he has no mental enhancement like, say, Captain America or Deathstroke. To say he's mastered every form of martial art known or unknown (again, I have to argue how something can be unknown if there are people who actually know it) isn't just suspending one's disbelief, but flat-out ignoring it.

Now, Champion of the Universe having mastered every form of martial art in the universe, that I can accept. Dude's countless eons old, so he's had time to study, practice and perfect them all. But Black Panther is no Champion of the Universe.

Again, not hating. Just trying (belligerently, perhaps) to apply some kind of rationale to comic book logic.

From the OHOTMU:

"Black Panther is a masterful natural fighter. His fighting style does not belong to any established martial arts discipline, but incorporates acrobatics and a number of cat-like stances, moves, and blows (which was later stated as being the basis of Wakandan martial arts).

So again, this "master of all styles" thing wasn't always the case, most especially during the peak of BP's popularity in the 70s-late 80s.

^^
Well, thanks for clearing that up. What about the time when Captain America supposedly says that T'Challa is his equal, I can't remember seeing this in the comics but I hear it talked about quite a bit. Was that in the old days, or more recent?

Well, to clarify, I do understand that there comes a degree of escalation in a character's abilities the longer they're around, most especially when it comes to Marvel and DC, who are always trying to out-do one another. Which is why Supes went from lifting a building to hauling a planet at around the same time Hulk went from lifting a building to holding up an entire mountain range. But there comes a time when the reader should recognize, "Okay, this is just silly." Which is why I appreciate that you insist on iconic versions of characters, not just the most recent version or the most powerful version of a character. Because if we were going by most powerful, folks would start using Captain Universe-empowered Spider-Man or Worldbreaker Hulk or Kryptonite-powered Batman or post-1,000 years in the sun Superman. Iconic is definitely the way to go.

As for Cap and Panther, according to OHOTMU, Panther is close to Cap's level but not exactly equal (Cap's slightly stronger, faster, more agile, etc). If you go by numers, Panther would be roughly 90% the physical specimen that Cap is. But the effect the Super Soldier Serum has on his mental and thought processes are what make Cap able to legitimately master multiple forms of martial arts and explain his crazy ability to formulate multiple strategies at the drop of a hat. But Panther has no such mental or thought enhancements; his enhancements all pertain to athletic ability, and his senses of sight, hearing and smell. But there's nothing that officially establishes him as a master strategist or master of multiple styles of martial arts; this was all the aformentioned writer's BS due to the also aforementioned escalation.

Basically, I that if Cap said Panther was his equal, it was the writer giving Panther more credit than he deserved. If not that, then I've got nothin' lol

Also, in regards to escalation -- I'll use Batman and Cap as examples.

The OHOTMU from '85 has Cap able to lift 800 lbs (750 with Black Panther). But sometime in the late 90s (I believe it was) DC said Batman could lift 1,000 lbs. Well, if DC's making an unenhanced human stronger than Cap, who is the ultimate phyiscal specimen, then Marvel must escalate Cap's strength level in turn, and next thing you know they've got him able to press 1,200 lbs.

It's this kind of competitive, silly escalation that ruins characters, which is why I chose to ignore it, and why I chose to go by iconic versions in every match. And for the ones who have always been written inconsistently (such as Lobo, Wolverine and others) I aim for the historic middle between the weakest they've been portrayed and the most powerful.

its a bit obscure with guys like ares, killer frost and raven

@relentless
Nice, looking forward to playing as Deathstroke. Will pick it up soon enough.

Now, on to your point about escalation. I agree it gets ridiculous and it makes everyone confused. Like someone would say "Hulk is way stronger than Superman" and supply this or that feat, then someone replies with "Wrong, Superman is way stronger than Hulk" and then supplies another escalation feat, the stuff changes all the time, it's nuts and hard to keep track of. And causes confusion and arguments among fans.

thats always the way ive looked at it anyway

@Fenix, I totally get what you're saying and I agree, a character's feats should speak for them. So looking at Bats, he's a good enough fighter that he can beat Killer Croc in a fight. Croc's in the 5-ton range, so obviously Bats is a hell of a fighter, but it's not like he fights KC with his bare hands. He needs his gadgets to work KC over.

Then you've got DD, whose fighting ability is so crazy good that he has fought Spider-Man (10 tons, super-speed, precog) to a standstill and has straight-up beat the snot out of Mr. Hyde (50 ton range). And the only gadget he has is his billy club.

Mind you I'm not saying Bats isn't a great fighter --I've never said he wasn't, in case there's anyone keeping track. But when comparing fighting feats vs fighting feats, as good as Bats is, I wouldn't put him anywhere even close to DD.

but seriously....you're all stupid and I'm right. ;)

jojofmd, ya got it all wrong. YOU'RE stupid and I'm right! ;)