Riddle me this riddle me that, who will go head to head with the Bat?

Riddle me this riddle me that, who will go head to head with the Bat?

A Hughes influence for the possible direction of the Riddler, and further speculation on who should play him.

Editorial Opinion
By 48and2 - May 13, 2010 12:05 AM EST
Filed Under: Batman
Source: ComicBookMovie.com

I want everyone here to know: I am on the side of the "true fan", but I also see room for compromise when it comes to movie adaptations There has been a tremendous amount of arguing and debate over this subject, and there will continue to be as long as these adaptations get made, but recently I've seen some extremely well expressed arguments on the pros, as opposed to the cons.
Everyone should keep an open mind and understand that especially in the "Nolanverse", and in the past and present general translation of comic books to movies - there is, should be, and always will be room for expirementation, and artistic license - and though sometimes in the past, it has been for the worse. With Nolan at the helm, it seems consistently to have been for the better.

I've been following public opinion on the possible integration, into Christopher Nolan's tba sequel to The Dark Knight, of The Riddler - for the better part of a year now. It seems about evenly split. He's seems to be a character you either love and see immense potential in, or hate with a seething disdain. I can certainly understand the hatred, because in the past he's been instilled with a cringe worthy campiness. Physically, he is the epitome of cowardess and wimpiness, and even in Arkham Asylum (game), he comes across relatively annoying. Up to now, he has definitely been depicted with a palpable unlikability. But this brings up, and I believe in Batman canon has always been intended to encourage the age old philosophical dichotomy of brains versus brawn?

"Batman's direct conflicts with the Riddler are typically more cerebral than physical and usually involve defeating him non-violently." -Wiki

With The Riddler's darkest iteration to date coming as that of a street pimp - I firmly believe that is the sort of sinister avenue that's going to have to be explored if his presence in the sequel to TDK is to be critically acclaimed, embraced by the fanbase, and live up to lofty expectation.

One opinion I have seen continually expressed is people begging and pleading for Batman's astonishing and unparalleled detective capabilities to be further
explored and taken to a new level in this next chapter. I'm a big fan of this goal. And it seems to me, The Riddler, done in the correct way, could be the key in opening a large door for that direction of character development.

Why The Riddler deserves to be a focal point in the next movie:

-He was first introduced in 1948

-He is an original rogue and has become an A list character, appearing prolifically throughout DC's history.

-He is, in a sense, completely antithetical to the Joker (which on the heels of TDK would make for a good direct contrast to Ledger's Joker).

-He's a very high profile character, and the general public knows him better than most - which will make for more mass appeal.

-Jim Carrey (arguably the most brilliantly gifted and famous physical comedian since Buster Keaton and Chaplin) having portrayed the character in Batman Forever (by today's standards a horendous portrayal yes, though not directly Carey's fault) raised the bar and cauterized the character into the public's imagination.



-Ledger's Joker was an almost complete reiteration of The Joker, and it strayed far from all other versions. Furthermore, it is now permanently enshrined as arguably the best cbm performance to date, and the only one to earn an Academy Award. If Nolan and Ledger were able to redefine Batman's "Arch" to such an explosive response and success, why can't The Riddler be done?

-This character is begging to be overhauled and redefined, and probably needs it the most out of all his A list rogues.

-Hans Zimmer "wants to do a score for The Riddler". (As a musician myself, I believe this to be due to the chaos vs. structure dichotomy). His appearance would raise the bar for scoring possibilities.

-Michael Caine seems to like the idea.

-Johnny Depp seems enthusiastic towards it and "could juggle it".

-Also, I know it has been discussed to death, but I firmly believe it would be distasteful, disrespectful, and potentially very dangerous from a credibility
standpoint to recast The Joker. I feel there's more potential for risk in that move than there is in redefining The Riddler with the right actor.

Here are the golden age rogues (* = already appeared on film):

1939 Doctor Death
1940 Hugo Strange
1940 Lex Luthor
1942 Professor Radium
1942 Adolf Hitler
1943 Crime Doctor
1943 The Cavalier
1943 Tweedledum and Tweedledee
1944 Solomon Grundy
1946 Crazy Quilt
1947 Gentlemen Ghost
1951 Red Hood
1951 Killer Moth
1952 Firefly
1957 Professor Milo
1957 Signalman
1958 False Face
1958 Doctor Double X
1959 The Blue Bat
1959 Thor (DC version)
1959 Bruno Groft and Lekkey

1948 THE RIDDLER*

1940 The Joker*
1940 Clayface
1940 Catwoman*
1941 The Scarecrow*
1941 The Penguin*
1942 Two Face*
1948 The Mad Hatter
1950 Deadshot
1958 Calendar Man
1959 Mr. Freeze*

My main point here is to demonstrate that, though he's not a gigantic favorite he is a classic and original character. Much more so than even many of the characters and fan favorites featured in Arkham Asylum; many of them have only been around for 10-20 years. He's very important, and deserves a shot at Nolan "repairing" his image.

I want to stay away from speculating on The Riddler's potential character development and plot integration very much, as this is not a fan fic. But if you examine the Riddler's history carefully alot of what I'm about to put forth has actually been at least nearly approached in the comic books and/or explored, on one level or another.

The OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) component of The Riddler's bio has been much maligned. However, there is a profoundly influential real life figure I see The Riddler exhibiting some dramatic similarities to: Howard Hughes. Hughes was, of course not a criminal, but let's for a moment imagine he had been. It is well known that he most likely suffered from OCD, and he certainly had a genius level IQ (two of The Riddlers main personality traits). There are theories that Hughes balance of intellect coupled with (in his early years) a more mild and cotrollable form of that illness is, at least in part, responsible for propelling him to such amazing success and astonishing heights -the likes of which, is rarely seen, and still have dramatic technological and business influence on our world today.

So while, to many of you, the OCD facet of The Riddler's psyche seems cheesy and gimmicky, it could be integrated into the story to catalyze mindblowing twists, turns, and consequences. Imagine for a second The Riddler as a Howard Hughes type gone bad: a brilliant industrialist, unflinchingly compelled by the nagging voices in his head, with access to nearly infinite state resources. He would have the whole world at his fingertips, as did Hughes at one point. He (Hughes) was also very good at getting people to do what he wanted (helping to enlist secondary rogues such as BlackMask, Deadshot, etc.) - this becomes a scary opponent, easily becoming a dreadful menace to Gotham, Bruce Wayne/Batman, and potentially the entire world.



He was furthermore a "smooth talker" and lady's man which could set up and lead into Salina Kyle and eventually Catwoman. We all know about The Riddler's unquenchable thirst for attention - whether it is a component of ocd itself or just part of their general personalities, Hughes also had this appetite.



It should be noted for the Hughes camp that I mean no disrespect or insult toward Howard Hughes himself - he was a one of a kind genius and used his abilities for benevolent purposes and the greater good. I am merely making an observation on similarities I've noticed. You could and should, in fact, look at most Western geniuses and be very relieved that they didn't have criminal tendencies. Our world would be a whole lot worse if good didn't win out to evil as much of the time as it does. A topic often touched on in the darker, more psychological, comics such as Watchmen and Batman.



MultiPurposePoni and I also discussed the idea of The Riddler becoming a rogue agent or cop - an idea which I like very much. And anybody who reads this site knows how much of a proponent I've become for at least elements of The Zodiac idea (not so much Saw, because I see that as gratuitous grindcore and having no place near a Nolan film). Although The Zodiac idea has ethical and moral implications and should thus maybe avoided (if you know the story he brought the whole Bay Area to its knees for many months, used cyphers sent to various media groups - two of which were never solved, highly craved attention just as the Riddler does, and did actually successfully avoid ever being captured or even identified) Anyway, take several or all of these ideas and combine them, and you've probably got a worthy adversary for the third installment of the film. I really actually like the idea of him being a Howard Hughes type figure going out on his own and becoming an agent or cop - then going rogue, and maybe going down the path of a Zodiac type and ending up snared in his own trap (because we all know his compulsion is what always ends up getting him caught and ending up a a victim of his own nagging neuroces).

Or something to that effect, but again we'll save that for the fanfic section. Apparently the Nolans and Goyer already have a story in mind, so I'm not going to pursue this. The Zodiac, The January Man, Die Hard with a Vengeance, Law Abiding Citizen all have valid material that would fit nicely with the Riddler's MO though.

The last thing I want to say on the subject is that I still believe there is no question that Johnny Depp is right for the part. Especially after seeing Imaginarium. He is hauntingly similar, yet fundamentally different, and a colorful contrast to Ledger. If you look at the history of the Batman films, the casting has of course been hit and miss, as has the direction. But one thing's for sure: the opportunities for "the perfect actor for the perfect role" come along only once in a very long while. At the time of Jim Carey's casting, he was tipped because he was believed to be "the perfect actor for the perfect role". He was a young highly experimental actor akin to Ledger. It was unfortunately the studio, the script, the direction of Batman Forever, and the overall disintegration of the cbm genre that left us choking on the putrid stench of a recipe for disaster, and gagging on the gawdy flickering green jump suit of the original Riddler - this current successful dark psychodrama pattern had yet another decade to be worked out. I think he actually did a decent job on his portrayal of that classic version of the cliche Riddler from the books and tv show.

I think what makes people very apprehensive about Depp is that he is again seemingly "the perfect actor for the role". I think people are afraid of a repeat of that ridiculous Riddler (as am I). And I think alot are also concerned Depp is on the downswing of his career and is going to do something like Willy Wonka or The Mad Hatter - 1. Depp wouldn't be working with Burton (a formula which has grown stale); 2. Wonka and Alice were children's movies; and 3. I've gathered from interviews and word of mouth that one of the main reasons he's been choosing these roles is because he has children himself - that's a large portion of his reasoning behind his for his trend in crafting his recent over the top childish roles. I strongly believe that he will look at what Ledger was doing, stay inside those lines, and add his own original twist. I do believe he is as highly attuned as actors get. He is so experienced and fully aware of how high the bar has been raised. The chance to craft a leading role with the perfect tone for Nolan's style of cbm, would be a chance difficult for any serious actor to pass up, let alone that of the rare actor with the actual ABILITY to successfully pull it off. I know most people are thinking it's going to be "Cap'n jack Riddler", but he's already done his fair share of darker, crazier roles. From the frenetic Hunter S. Thompson, and opium laden Inspector Abeline in From Hell, to most recently a cold blooded yet multidimensional John Dillinger, and Ledger stand in for Tony in The Imaginarium. It is a near guarantee that if you present an actor like Depp (who with Imaginarium now in his pocket is almost literally in the vein of Ledger) with a challenge of creating an original Riddler in Nolan's third and final movie, I just believe it takes the risk of failure down so significantly it becomes almost non existent. Keep in mind He has a history of crafting his roles based on real life figures, or taking traits of real life figures and adding his own seasoning. His Hunter S. Thompson was a near mimic; his Cap'n Jack was based upon Keith Richards affectations - a formula that won him an Oscar nomination, and even his Willy Wonka was a pretty decent Gene Wilder if you watch it closely (it's too close imo, and he should've added more originality) - this tendency makes him a bit more experimental, capable, and more intelligent than many other actors out there in my opinion.



Technically speaking, Depp has actually already somewhat successfully pulled off a cbm role with From Hell - some love it some hate it. It's my opinion that, at the very least, that movie hinges on his performance.



One thing's for sure: this is going to have to be The Riddler rebooted, reenvisioned, and/or redone. And with all the rumors and buzz surrounding this proposed casting call, it's seems a subject that enthusiasts of the movie and genre should take very seriously.

It's only a matter of time before the question is answered as to whether or not The Riddler will appear in Nolan's follow up to TDK, and the riddle is solved as to who will play him.

I fully welcome and encourage further speculation on the topic.
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Omegatron
Omegatron - 5/14/2010, 7:21 AM
First and I say Leonardo di carpo because he's gonna be in Chris Nolans inception and he has the build an weight size and look of The Riddler anyone agree
batman88
batman88 - 5/14/2010, 8:42 AM
I think Depp is right. no perfect for the role. Born to play the riddler, I think of him with like some OCD or somthing and out thinking batman is funner to him then trying to just kill him. but I also want to see a villian that can beat the crap out of batman, thats something new. Like killer croc or bane just think Broc lesnar as bane. if frank mir can't stop him how can batman???????????????????????? Plus you need Johny Depp.A because the fans want it.B because he wants is.C because what the hell else they going to do? and D because with A list stars like liam neeson and heath ledger you need a nother A list star to be the villian.
batman88
batman88 - 5/14/2010, 8:46 AM
And if catwomen is in it which i dont want, but if she is Megan Fox has to be her I mean come the freak on here her in all black that would sell tickets alone.
batman88
batman88 - 5/14/2010, 8:48 AM
CLAY FACE?
agentend
agentend - 5/14/2010, 1:10 PM
I think Nolan almost has to make the Riddler the next big villian. He's too interesting and popular of a character to just simply ignore. He is definitly in the top three of Batman's all time arch emimies. I personally would like to see Guy Pearce as the Riddler. He is a fantastic actor, with proven chopps for playing a villian. He also has a past working relationship with Nolan with the movie Momento. Nolan originally wanted Pearce to play the role of Two-Face in the Dark Knight, but later changed his mind for Arron E. Maybe Nolan thought of a better role for Pearce in the future? Pure speculation...but one can make the arguement. The two are known friends. I think the character of the Riddler fits perfectly with in the Nolan/Batman world. I would like to see the Riddler as a pure sadistic criminal, bent on toying with Batman and Comish Gordon for his own personnal pleasure. A dark, evil, moodish character who leaves a question mark as his calling card as if to say "can you guess who I am" which the media has dub The Riddler. Nolan can turn the next Batman movie into a great cat and mouse game.

I personnaly hope Nolan doesn't make the Riddler a big flamboyant character like he is usually is represented. I want something different, something new. I dont want to see a him in an outfit dressed in green with question marks all over him. He'd look like a jack-ass. I dont want him over the top shit all crazy like he usually is either. I want mellow, methodical, dark, sadistic, evil. Something new. Why not? New isn't always a bad thing.....unless you splash it in neon. But I trust Nolan won't go there. I know I'm gonig against conventional thought and the grain here with this and I'll probably get a bunch of shit for it but......f-you, I think it could really work.
BryEL
BryEL - 5/14/2010, 8:54 PM
Good stuff, man.
agentend
agentend - 5/15/2010, 3:03 AM
Thanks.
agentend
agentend - 5/15/2010, 3:10 AM
Catwoman will most certainly be in the next Nolan film. Bruce Wayne/Batman need a love intrest now that Rachel is gone. Simple as that. There has to be some sort of sub plot, it can't be all Riddler. Nolan is pretty much handcuffed on this so why not introduce Catwoman. My pick is either Kate Beckinsale or Selma Blair.
antonio
antonio - 5/15/2010, 6:59 PM
depp is riddler.!!!
Malt77
Malt77 - 5/16/2010, 3:03 AM
Still think that Guy Pearce is perfect... Especially after the performance Nolan got out of him in Momento.
48and2
48and2 - 5/16/2010, 1:07 PM
Well if we don't get the Riddler my first choice is Tweetledee/Tweetledum lol... jk.

@agentend - agree fully

@batman88 - Clayface would be one of the few rogues very hard to pull off in Nolan's style. Don't see it being done myself.

@Rickly - I only agree with what I wrote. jk lol. I dunno man, there are SOOO many directions it can go in. But definitely tried to layout here who's REALLY worthy of an appearance. I guess I said all that already =P

@Malt77 - very much like Guy Pearce and think he'd be great as most villains. He is a close choice for me after Depp, and he's going to apparently be a villain in Cormack Mcarthy's adaptation of "The Road".
Amazo
Amazo - 5/17/2010, 4:48 AM
If we have to have the Riddler I agree with your summation dude.The only thing I think I'd add is that I think it would be cool if he was a hacker/I.T. expert,possibly on the Wayne Tech team responsible for The Batmans tech in the last movie.
48and2
48and2 - 5/20/2010, 12:23 AM
@Spartan76 I agree with you, that's one of the MANY cool directions he could go, or all of them - like Hughes (he was MANY things for his time). I have like 100 ideas I could write out for him, but going to spend my time doing other things.

My main intention with this article was to demonstrate the motivation that OCD can give someone. It would make them a hell of a nuisance at the very least.

It would be fair game for Nolan - from Insomnia, and Memento to The Dark Knight, he's always exploring the criminal psyche, and just the psyche in general. OCD would be a VERY LIKELY topic for him to touch on. Don't be surprised if it becomes a plot point - again, look at Memento.
RoClover
RoClover - 5/20/2010, 2:58 PM
I'm thinking get an unknown for at least one if not both of the characters of Catwoman and Riddler (who should both be in the film, give Bats a run for his money with two very different and equally important distractions).

Bale and Caine have enough star power and the name of Nolan's Batman alone is enough to sell tickets. Get some hot and unknown actors to spice up the screen and make some mysterious hooplah around viral marketing -- "So-and-so IS Catwoman, seen scaling the Empire State Building" and "What's-his-name IS The Riddler, leaving scary and cryptic notes all over San Francisco".

Nolan's all about the reality. This would be perfect and compelling and I know I'd die of anticipation even before the damn thing was released.
rybat88
rybat88 - 5/20/2010, 4:10 PM
Personally I don't ever agree with most proposals for movies because they tend to be very unrealistic. By unrealistic I mean not fitting into the nature of the current films and/or the director's shown vision. Yet, this idea of the Riddler and bringing Selena Kyle in to somehow feel the void of Rachel would be a very good direction. For one, Batman took a dark turn at the end and depending on what stage Selena Kyle is at, can determine just how she will aid his emotions (good or bad). Maybe even she could turn into Catwoman at the end based on a betrayal...or who knows maybe she was Catwoman early on in the film and this builds conflict with The Riddler leaving all of those clues as to who is committing which crime. This could cause her to turn on The Riddler in the end because she feels she was setup, which would build on that confusing love/hate bond between her and batman that much more.

One more thing, if The Riddler/ Catwoman are brought into this using the whole Wayne Tech. hacker theme, then then we should refer to a small yet useful characther in The Dark Knight. Anyone remember the guy who tried to out Bruce Wayne as Batman? Well, he could reveal in the next movie that he was brought on by The Riddler
SentinelofLiberty
SentinelofLiberty - 5/23/2010, 3:52 PM
Awesome stuff!

If I may add some of my armchair psychology, as to another reason I feel the Riddler will be the 'main' villain in the next episode. Nolan likes to have an overarching theme in each movie. In BB, it was fear. The power fear has over us, how one man can harness his fear and turn it against others. TDK was about "escalation," and how every action we take can have far-reaching, often unforeseen consequences. Bruce grapples with how far he's willing to take things, how much he's willing to endure and sacrifice.

In the 3rd installment, whatever it's titled, I can see the theme being, put loosely, "obsession." Just as in the Batman books of the 90s, the third movie will start with Bruce Wayne now totally consumed by Batman. The loss of Rachel, the downfall of Harvey Dent, the things that kept Bruce Wayne in control of Batman, are now gone. Alfred and Lucius, as the only people who give Bruce ties to the "real world," see him slipping further and further into obsession with his "career" as Batman. What better character than Riddler to explore Bruce's growing obsession. After all, the Riddler is as obsessed with Batman as Batman is obsessed with his war on crime.

I think the possibilities for exploring obsession and its consequences through Bruce AND Riddler, in the same film, have fascinating possibilities...
SentinelofLiberty
SentinelofLiberty - 5/23/2010, 3:56 PM
Apologies for the lack of coherent grammar in my comment. "The possibilities...have fascinating possibilities"? WTF? All I can say is that I was very excited by the original article!
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