MCU's Nerfing of Black Panther and the Civil War Disconnect

MCU's Nerfing of Black Panther and the Civil War Disconnect

The MCU is no stranger to continuity issues and nerfing of its heroes. BLACK PANTHER is out now, and while being a great movie it brings out a few problems in the MCU.

Editorial Opinion
By Armageddon26 - Feb 20, 2018 08:02 AM EST
Filed Under: Black Panther

A New Genius

      In the comics T’Challa is often seen as one of the smartest people on the planet, consistently ranking in the 7th-9th spots, or at least mentioned as being in the top 10. His intellect makes him feel like an even more worthy rival to the Tony Stark’s of the world.
     
      The MCU has seemed to change all that. In the cinematic universe we now have his younger sister, Shuri, taking the mantle of family genius. So where does that leave T’Challa in terms of intellect? The film never really gives us any sort of indication that he is anywhere near as smart as Shuri, or even if his intelligence is anything special at all (like, genius-level special at least).


T’Challa Isn’t a Great Fighter Anymore

      Civil War introduced T’Challa as a force to be reckoned with, holding his own against Bucky without the suit, and going toe-to-toe and even beating most of Cap’s team. His fighting style was unique, deadly yet still kind of cat-like in movement.
Black Panther seems to erase most of that. In the film Black Panther (SPOILERS, obviously) nearly loses to M’Baku early on without his powers, and loses pretty badly to Killmonger.
 
      Now, while both fights were interesting enough they don’t show the T’Challa from Civi War, the fierce hand to hang combatant going head to head with the MCU’s best fighters. His loss to Killmonger is especially hard as Killmonger is a good fighter, but someone who wouldn’t last long against any solo Avenger.
So why is it he beats T’Challa so easily?

The Civil War Disconnect

     The first thing that feels isolated relates back to Black Panther losing against Killmonger.

     When did T’Challa first get the powers from the Heart Shaped Erb?

      In the film he already has them, but in Civil War he states he is now the one with the Black Panther mantle because of his father’s passing, so was that T’Challa’s first time being the actual owner of the suit as it’s the King who has the mantle and the powers, or had both taken the Erb before the events of the movie?

      It’s not a huge issue, but either way, T’Challa seems to have been nerfed as fighter, hopefully something the Russo Brothers can fix.


The Wakanda of Civil War and the Identity of Black Panther

      Civil War never really makes Wakanda seem like the extremely poor, completely isolated nation it is in Black Panther.
In fact, the Wakandans killed at the start of the movie were killed on an outreach program, something that contradicts the new movie’s notion of Wakanda.

      Also, why is this incredibly poor nation powerful enough for T’Chaka and T’Challa to lead the Sokovia Accord/UN talks, and why do they care?

      As for the identity of Black Panther, Ross mentions to T’Challa that he owes him for not telling everyone he wears a cat suit or whatever, something along those lines. But Civil War establishes that the government would already know all this, including Secretary Ross. The issue of Panther ever signing the accords is completely different, but the identity is one already known throughout the government, so that line seemed a little odd.        The Civil War post-credit scene also feels odd now. The Wakanda we are shown and that is hinted at looks nothing of the Wakanda we have now seen. Even weirder than that: when does this scene even take place? Black Panther takes place immeditaley after T'Challa's return home, and yet Shuri makes a reference to Bucky being there. 



If there were any issues I missed, any issues you had, or you just wanna dispute my issues and prove me wrong, yano, please do.

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MNLawyer
MNLawyer - 2/20/2018, 12:42 PM
(There are always minor differences as scripts change)

1. He's smart but not tech smart. There are various things to be a "genius" at
2. The Heart shaped herb gives him his agility, not the suit. When he doesn't have it he's just an average fighter.
3.-4. He was BP for a while but not the King.
Armageddon26
Armageddon26 - 2/20/2018, 1:04 PM
@MNLawyer - I know he’s still smart, the moves and planning he did in his fights proved that, but he had a science mind comparable to Reed Richards and Tony Stark is what I’m saying.

I also never said the suit gave him his agility, I’m talking his straight up fighting style and skill is lost from Civil War to Black Panther. The Erb would increase his agility, strength, man presumably reflexes, but it sounds comepletley change his fighting style.
As for him being Black Panther for awhile it’s what I assumed as well, he just has an odd line of dialogue where he says he took the mantle that makes it seem like he didn’t have it before, which is why I question when exactly he gets the heart shaped Erb and if T’Chaka still had powers from it too
Brokenxwing
Brokenxwing - 6/8/2018, 1:44 AM
@Armageddon26 - Here's a possible explanation for you about his fighting style seemingly changing. I think the reason is his "cat-like" fighting style seen in Civil War is a side effect of the heart-shaped herb. It's part of the whole communing with the ancestors and being given the power of Black Panther. It gives increased instincts too like a cat, that's a known power. I think the reason you THINK he seems so much weaker is two-fold, he's not wearing his essentially invincible vibranium suit during the two fights at the waterfall, and he's also depowered for them. Both times he has to fight without his black panther powers. Due to this he struggled a lot more than he did against Buckey or Cap. When he was fighting Bucky and Captain America he was not only wearing his outfit (which was actually a much weaker version than the main one in this film which could be deployed from his necklace and had this amazing new kinetic absorption and the ability to unleash it at an opponent seemingly on command.) He was also fighting them with all his Black Panther enhancements, speed, agility, super strength, and increased instincts. The implication for when he got his black panther powers is he must have returned home to Wakanda, and then taken the herb and then came back to try and kill Bucky. Or maybe it was brought with him or with his allies. Or it's just a continuity issue because Marvel generally cares more about allowing its creators to make the best stories they can even if it often means ignoring continuity. The one thing that is really stupid is the entire way his father dies. He's on a relief mission?! You mean the thing we were explicitly told Wakanda doesn't engage in until the end of the movie? That's a serious continuity issue that is not easy to explain. Especially given this film isn't ignoring the events of Civil War, it even showed the scene again in this movie, and continued with the set up from Civil War that Cap brought Bucky to Wakanda. Which as far as I know was explained by Ryan Cooler that Bucky was fixed a little bit before the start of the movie and that he's already been helped before the entire movies events. We just didn't see him during it. But the line Shuri says about another white boy for me to fix was put there to intentionally imply that Shuri has already helped Bucky and that he is still in Wakanda like it was set up back in Civil wars ending. The Bucky thing that bothers me is that apparently, he lived for 2 years without an arm in Wakanda before Infinity War started. Like why? Shuri could have made him that Vibranium arm right away not left it until Infinity War to do it. Which I assume was just for some kind of narrative purposes in Infinity War continuity be damned.
GoldenMan
GoldenMan - 2/20/2018, 1:43 PM
T’Challa’s intellect (or lack thereof) was probably my biggest problem with the end of the film, especially given the lead up to that point. I would’ve really loved T’Challa to accept he can’t beat Killmongee pound for pound so he has to use his intellect.

The fighting style I can excuse just on counts of chereohraphers but it still doesn’t make sense chronologically. The action scenes for me (bar the car chase) weren’t as great as I’d hyped myself for.

The Civil War Panther chronology I would expect to be down to T’Challa being the Panther already, just not King.

With Ross I think he was just speaking on behalf of the US government as their representative; Shuri meanwhile, mentions “another broken white boy for me to fix” when Ross is brought in so Bucky is seemingly elsewhere post-treatment.
Armageddon26
Armageddon26 - 2/20/2018, 2:39 PM
@GoldenMan - Yeah, probably right on him being Panther, just makes me wonder now how long he actually has been haha.

But my thing is when did Bucky get there, becuase the film picks up literally right where Civil War leaves off, it starts with T’Challa returning home, then he goes on the mission and he brings back Ross, so the post-credits scene doesn’t really fit beucuase of Shuri’s line
sikwon
sikwon - 2/21/2018, 12:51 PM
I think there are some basic elements of the story that you are missing.
1. T'Challa struggling. He was fighting peak human beings and without the herb, that's all T'Challa is, a peak human. Killmonger has trained his entire adult life to fight that battle. And when he had taken the herb to become the Black Panther he defeated the Dora Milaje and showed just how skilled he was.
2. You keep referring to Wakanda as a "poor" nation. That was never the case, it was only a front that Wakanda showed to the outside world. Remember they were saying that Wakanda had turned down foreign aid. They are not and were not a poor nation. That was simply a front to keep the outside world from getting to interested.
3. Time line... BP takes place about a week after Civil War. Bucky was brought to Wakanda immediately following Civil War. Like from Russia straight to Wakanda. ...... So CW ends, Cap and Bucky go to Wakanda. We see Steve and T'Challa talk, Bucky is being worked on. Steve leaves, confident Bucky is in good hands. After a few days of intense Science stuff Bucky is moved to a small village to recover and rest. During this time the events of BP take place. Here is what the director had to say...
"[A Bucky scene] was something that was always—it was a Shuri thing, because in our world we kind of figured that Bucky Barnes would be her assignment. We kind of drop the hint at that when they bring Ross in and she’s like, ‘Oh another one.’ So we dropped hints in there, but what we kind of decided was that her cracking his mental code, if Shuri’s as smart as she is, that wouldn’t really be a big problem.

"But Bucky would have horrible PTSD, he would need spiritual guidance. The last thing he would need to do is jump into that Civil War, and so that was kind of the thought process there. And it could be potentially problematic if it’s a bunch of Africans fighting and you bring in a White dude, he comes in shootin’ people (laughs). We were aware of that. Bucky’s not trained to neutralize people peacefully, he’s an assassin…"

As far as the differences in the way that Wakanda looked in BP as opposed to CW, we see stuff like that all the time. Asgard for example looked kind of different in all 3 Thor movies. Most of your complaints were explained in the movie. And M'Baku was a BEAST! I mean.... he's ManApe without the insulting name so it shouldn't be a surprise that he was able to fight with T'Challa. He's formidable. That does not lessen T'Challa.
Armageddon26
Armageddon26 - 2/21/2018, 2:01 PM
@sikwon - I’m saying the front of Wakanda being a poor nation, that doesn’t seem like the case in Ciivl War. It’s never made out to be some poor country that the film tells us they use as a fromt. Civil War even mentions a Wakanda sent people out on an outreach h mission of goodwill, but they mention in the movie that they are isolationist and full of poor farmers from an outside perspective, so that whole mission doesn’t even make much sense

As for the week later thing, that is never made explicitly clear. But I agree, I rewatched it again.

And my issue with T’Challa is how he fought in this movie, it was really rough and for the most part he didn’t look like he was formidable, it was probably because of the action choreographers, but it was just really basic, nothing compared to how he fought in Civil War
Kumkani
Kumkani - 2/24/2018, 3:41 AM
Highly disagree with all of this

1. Yes, Shuri is the genius in the film but if you pay attention the film also shows that T'Challa is actually very smart and at least understands technology. But one thing people seem to forget about T'Challa is that most of his genius comes from how well prepared he is and his strategic mind, not because he's an inventor. The film shows this with the way he takes out the cars during the chase scene in Busan, when he attaches the microphone to Ross when he's questioning Klaue, and when he tells Shuri to turn on the train on the bottom track because he knows it will affect his suit and Killmonger's. That's the kind of genius Tony displays in the MCU so how is he not as smart as him just because he has someone inventing stuff for him (which is also smart as you don't want to be spread thin). T'Chaka also says that T'Challa has been studying and is well educated since he was a child. T'Challa's best feats in the comics are things like outsmarting Tony Stark who made a specific kind of suit to fight BP with nothing but Windex so that has always been T'Challa and the film shows that.

2. Are you kidding me? T'Challa way more feats in this film than in Civil War. Look at the Nigeria fight scene (rescuing the girls and Nakia). How he ambushes them by taking out their vans is also a sign of his strategic mind and how he fights them in my opinion is better than anything he did in Civil War. I mean he was moving so fast I could barely see him, and casually sending guys flying with punches (something Cap has never done) and kicks and some of them fly several feet off and across the ground. He also easily bent/broke a rifle with his arm and lifted and threw a guy from grabbing his ankle. He also ripped a van door off and threw it another guy like it was paper. That is some serious strength. The fighting style in this film seemed to be based more on Capoeira and other African martial arts which you're not used to seeing. Comparing his fighting style in Civil War to this film frankly isn't fair because in that film he was in a vengeful state of mind and was trying to kill Bucky. That's why he was using his claws in that film. He was looking for killing blows and not to subdue. Notice that he only brought his claws out as a tool to help him do other things like make a sharp bend or remove a tire, and when he was about to kill Klaue and when he was fighting Erik during the final battle. Comparing his fight scenes in Civil War to his fight with M'Baku is also unfair because in CW he had his powers and his suit while in that fight he had neither. And did you not see M'Baku? The guy may have been a normal human being but he was no slouch. He was huge and could easily lift a grown man up with one hand and throw him aside. Plus M'Baku in the comics has beaten both Cap and BP at the same damn time and T'Challa has never actually beaten him before. Most people don't know that about M'Baku. I agree loosing to Killmonger that quickly was a bit weird, but again he was without his powers and I bet Killmonger could beat Cap and Bucky if they didn't have their superhuman abilities. Hell, both Killmonger and the other Winter Soldiers in Civil War had the same kind of training (trained to destabilize governments and attack when there were changes in political power). The first fight between Killmonger and T'Challa should have been longer, yes, but it's always been Killmonger's thing to beat T'Challa. That's how it goes in the comics. I would have liked it if they showed that before Zuri interrupted that killing blow that T'Challa had a counterattack ready but I have no complaints at all.

3. You're not really making any sense here. Wakanda has Vibranium, which the world knows about. The world just thinks they have very little Vibranium and Klaue stole all of it. Therefore the world doesn't know just how technologically advanced Wakanda really is. A nation being poor doesn't mean they can't have scientists in it, and that's what the Wakandan scientists were doing in Lagos. They were sharing whatever knowledge and research they have as a sigh of good will. That has nothing to do with the kind of technology they really have or the advanced and plentiful resources they have, which is what the world knows about. Them putting up a front that they're poor doesn't mean they can't be UN members now doesn't it. And also, Black Panther clearly states that the king is challenged by other champions of the other tribes. Before the challenge he was still king, but the time had come for the challenge. And for the challenge, T'Challa has his powers stripped from him so that other champions have an actual chance and also so that the current king/BP can prove themselves. I don't remember the line Ross said, but maybe he was referring to the fact that the suit was made of Vibranium, which only Cap, Falcon and a few others knew about.
CaptainBing
CaptainBing - 3/8/2018, 11:01 PM
So, first, I'm not sure T'Challa is as an elite fighter in Civil War as you're making him out to be. Yeah, he's obviously good, but he didn't just go through guys, wiping them all out. When T'Challa had the powers, Bucky and him were pretty well matched in Romania, Berlin, as well as at the airport. Cap beat him pretty easily at the airport too. I feel like his fighting has been pretty consistent thus far.

In terms of how, when, T'Challa became the official "Black Panther," here's my take. In Civil War, T'Chaka obviously isn't the warrior he once was. I assume that T'Challa has already been taking the heart shaped herb and been given the suit, as the next immediate heir to the throne. He's not king yet, but T'Chaka isn't the "warrior" anymore, he's just the "king."

Lastly, I honestly can't figure out when the post credit scene in Civil War took place. That scene shows that T'Challa, Steve and Bucky went back to Wakanda right after Siberia, but then Black Panther opens up with T'Challa and Okoye coming back alone? I don't get it. The only thing I can figure is that T'Challa, Steve and Bucky went to Wakanda, dropped off Bucky, flew Steve back, then T'Challa went to Nigeria to get Nakia right after? I have no clue.
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