My Thoughts on Captain America: Part 3

My Thoughts on Captain America: Part 3

Part 3 of my series giving my opinion on Captain America: The First Avenger. In this article I talk about the need to keep the movie grounded in semi-realism.

Editorial Opinion
By BIGBMH - Jul 26, 2010 07:07 AM EST

I'm going to sort of pick up where I left off in the last article. The last cast member I talked about was Toby Jones who will be playing Arnim Zola. I din't go into much detail about the character because I felt my thoughts on that subject would be better suited for this article. One of the things Arnim Zola is best known for is his strange appearance. He created a brain pattern imprinting device, which would allow someone's mental essence to be projected into a cloned brain. He used this device on himself transferring his mind into an artificial body. This is what the body looks like.



As you can see, it looks sort of like a predecessor of Krang from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Teletubbies.



There's debate among fans whether they should keep this for the movie or not. I'm really against using this design for several reasons. First and foremost, it just looks goofy. Having a robot with a monitor on its stomach displaying a face would instantly make this movie campier. When making this movie, they have to keep in mind the tone of semi-realism established by the first few movies in the Marvel cinematic universe. Robot Zola just seems suited for something in the tone of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow and similar movies which are supposed to be very strange in terms of style and story. With Captain America they need to stay focused on what's important and keep it grounded. Some fans are claiming that if you make Zola into a normal scientist you're taking away everything that's interesting about the character. To those people I have to ask what exactly would be the function of having Zola in the artificial body for this movie? What is there that he would really need to do with that body that he couldn't do without it. If he is such an interesting character, he should be an interesting character because of his motivations and the type of person that he is. Those things aren't affected by whether he's a robot or not. I think the best way to use Zola would be to have him as one of the scientist working for the Nazi's trying to come up with their own version of the super soldier serum. He helps to create an imperfect serum which Johann Schmitt tests on himself, becoming the Red Skull. Then he's present for the rest of the movie in a small role working for the Red Skull. Maybe at the end, they could hint that he's going to transfer his mind into an artificial body so they could bring him back in future Captain America movies as something closer to the traditional Arnim Zola.
The other big concern I have in regards to keeping this movie grounded is the talk of including the Invaders for a large portion of the movie. The Invaders are a team of superheroes that Captain America and Bucky were a part of during WW2. Some of its members include Namor the Sub-Mariner, the original android Human Torch, Whizzer( a guy with super speed who got his powers by an injection of mongoose blood), Thin Man, and Union Jack.


Joe Johnston has stated that the Invaders will be appearing in "the entire second half" of the film. I think this could either work well or just be a terrible idea. This is Captain America's only solo film before the Avengers. One of the goals of this movie should be to sell Steve Rogers as a character to an audience who isn't really that familiar with his story. He shouldn't have to fight for attention like it's an ensemble film. While any cast is an ensemble, this is a solo superhero movie which means the main character is the strong focus of attention. This story shouldn't have a bunch of super heroes taking spotlight from its main attraction. From a character development standpoint, if you introduce these characters, you have to take some time to develop them. That would take away time that should be spent developing Steve as a character. Imagine if they decided to include Namor. The guy is from Atlantis! His story would especially require a lot of explanation to do the character justice.
From a visual standpoint, Captain America should be the most interesting person on screen. If you have him dressed in his red, white, and blue costume among soldiers who are much more plainly dressed, then he stands out and looks impressive. If you have him fighting alongside a guy who's on fire, a guy with super speed, and a stretchy guy, suddenly the super soldier doesn't seem so super. To illustrate my point compare the following pictures. What's the focus?


One is a picture of a superhero team while the other is a picture of Captain America. While Captain America is the team's most prominent and popular member, he's not the focus of the Invaders. He has to be the focus of this movie.
It'll be great to see a team in the Avengers because the interest has been built through the solo movies and the audience is excited just to see them together, but in an introductory solo movie, the main character needs to have the spotlight mostly to himself.
Some people might point out that Wolverine's Origin movie featured several other super powered people. A) X-men Origins: Wolverine was kind of crappy. B) Audiences had already gotten to know Hugh Jackman's Wolverine through 3 X-men movies that were pretty heavily focused on him before seeing Wolverine Origins so it's a completely different situation. When you look at Iron Man, it would have been possible to include War Machine in the first movie. After seeing how easily Rhodey got the Mark 2 suit in Iron Man 2, it's not difficult to imagine him using it in the first movie to help Tony fight Iron Monger. However, this would have been a bad idea because they needed time to show off Iron Man before throwing in another character to share the spotlight.
I think the best way to do the Invaders is to make them more like an elite combat unit similar to teams like the A-team, the Losers, and most importantly, the Howling Commandos. There's already talk of including the Howling Commandos in the movie, so the most sensible thing to do would be to sort of mix the Invaders and the Howling Commandos to form one team instead of trying to cram both in.

That's more like it!
The roster doesn't need to be big. Seeing that the movie already has Captain America, Bucky, and Peggy Carter, I think adding 2 or 3 more characters to this team is the most they should do. Of the Invaders, I definitely think that Union Jack is realistic enough to be adapted in a way that would fit in with the tone the movie should have. Dum Dum Dugan of the Howling Commandos has already been confirmed to have a role in the movie so he could complete the team's roster. Since they are using him in this, I don't think he should be in the modern Marvel world because I think that for the purpose of these movies, there shouldn't be many characters besides Captain America who survive through the war and continue fighting in modern times. We're already looking at the possibility of Bucky, the Red Skull, and Arnim Zola meeting up with Cap in later movies. To add more characters to this list would probably just be a little too much.

Please check out the video version of this article here. It's mostly the same content, but it has a catchy intro. It's also a great alternative if you just feel like listening while doing other stuff instead of taking the time to read this whole thing.



Thanks for reading and keep an eye out for my next and final article in this series in which I talk about what this movie needs to make it great.
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BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 7:46 AM
I knew going into this one I was just asking to get flamed with my stance on Zola and the Invaders. So bring it on! Just kidding, but seriously, I know a lot of you disagree with me on this, so if you do, make a good argument for why you think things should be a certain way. Just to be clear, "That's how it was in the comics so that's how it should be!" really isn't a good argument.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 9:10 AM
I agree with your take on Zola. A "Zola" character ought to be enough to keep the fanboys happy.

The Invaders, CAN be handled right. That doesn't mean that they will. You are dead on when you say the danger is distracting from the main man. However, it also gives Cap the chance to shine as a leader. A leader, especially of a super team. Remember, the subtitle ought to give you a clue as to where Marvel is thinking of going with this. It's "the First Avenger" not "WWII Super Soldier."

Also, this is the last film before the Avengers in 2012. It HAS to set it up. Cap as a leader fits both his character and the Avengers set up. Think about the hints dropped in IM2 about Stark as an Avenger. I imagine they will have to find a way to address this in Thor as well. Hulk got a little short changed with this since his only connection was the Easter Egg scene that didn't even involve him. This sounds like they are setting up Cap as the eventual leader of the Avengers. Which, I might add, is a good thing.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 9:30 AM
He can shine as a leader without leading a superhero team. I think the Avengers should be the first experience of this kind for everyone on the team. If Cap has done something very similar to leading the Avengers in his own movie, it won't feel significant. In the Avengers, I want them to play up the fish out of water thing for him. This isn't his time. This isn't the kind of team he's used to leading. In regards to "the First Avenger", I don't see what that has to do with the Invaders. If the Invaders were an earlier incarnation of the Avengers it would relate, but they're completely unrelated.
In regards to the set-up, I think the modern day bookends will play an important part in connecting it to the Avengers.
AshleyWilliams
AshleyWilliams - 7/26/2010, 9:47 AM
I agree with most of everything you said!
Howling Commandos for the 1st WW2 film. The Invaders for the half WW2/Modern sequel.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 9:56 AM
I think there's potential to do the Invaders somehow, whether it's flashbacks in a sequel or their own complete spin-off with Namor as the central character.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 10:05 AM
Well, like it or not, Johnston has said that the film has present time bookends. I think the Invaders are there for the exact reason as to set up for the Avengers. Cap has said that he felt comfortable with the Avengers due to his experience with the Invaders. If you are going to include the Invaders in a film, this is the only chance you are going to get. I do doubt that all of the Invaders will be there for the reason you pointed out; don't distract from Cap.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 10:20 AM
I just said that it has present time bookends, so yeah, I like it. I don't see why this is the only chance to show the Invaders. Brubaker's Winter Soldier told the story of Karpov and the Russians through flashbacks woven throughout the story. It would be easy to show them in flashbacks of another movie. I still don't want to see them though.
AngryRob
AngryRob - 7/26/2010, 10:41 AM
I totally agree with you, BIGBMH, I think the Invaders would work good, but not with Namor or the human torch or any other powered heroes. Cap should be the only powered person. The Invaders can be more akin to a special forces group, with "costumes" more like fatigues than spandex. Give me Union Jack, Bucky, Spitfire, and Black Panther (yes I know he wasn't an Invader, but he was active during the time and it would help introduce BP into future movies)
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 11:03 AM
@AngryRob Yeah, that's alot of what I was thinking.

@BIGBMH I just can't see a whole flashback movie, or even a large chunk of a movie. I think the plan will be to move Cap into the modern era on his motorcycle in CA2, or maybe an anti-terror Cap. I doubt they'll revisit WWII other than short flashbacks. But, we'll have to see.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 11:16 AM
@Sturmpionier, I definitely want to see the Winter Soldier story played out over a movie, so flashbacks would be necessary for that.
p.s. I'm not trying to sound like a dick. I respect your opinion and appreciate you for arguing it sensibly. What's CBM.com without some healthy debate?
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 11:52 AM
@BIGBMH You don't sound like a dick. We actually mostly agree. I think we're having a great conversation.

Winter Soldier sounds good to me. And, flashbacks would be needed for that. For Cap, Bucky really needs to die to sell his need in the future (present?) to keep adventuring. For Bucky, obviously he has to suddenly reappear, necessitating some flashbacks. To clarify, I think flashbacks will work great, just not a flashback movie.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/26/2010, 12:45 PM
I really want to see Namor in this movie, just because I'm a big fan of the character. But in the same breath, I agree that Namor is too complex of a character to throw in without taking a good portion of the attention away from Rogers. Not only is he a very exotic character, he's more powerful than Cap. You have to explain why this guy is flying around in a speedo. You have to explain why the prince of the legendary underwater city of Atlantis is fighting in WW2, and why he's taking a back seat to this American soldier. While this is a very good way to setup a bit of thirst from fans for a Namor film or feature in future movies, it would take a lot of the focus off of the title character.

In my opinion, if they are going to include Namor, it should be an after credit easter egg like the previous movies. A scene where Namor is swimming around and finds this big chunk of ice with Rogers inside it. Namor gets upset, breaks the chunk of ice free and hurls it across the Atlantic, where Stark/Pym stumble across it.

As for Zola, I agree with you 100%.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 1:10 PM
@Poolsonx, if Marvel studios has the rights to do Namor on screen, then I think they could do subtle hints. Maybe they couldn't do a scene as extensive as what you suggested because these post credits scenes are usually pretty simple and the casting of Namor is a big multi-picture deal. It seems like if they were going to include him in this movie in a role that required an actual actor, we would have heard about it.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/26/2010, 1:20 PM
@ BIGBMH, I agree. Subtle hints would be the best to preserve the quality of this movie. It would be hard to keep the casting quiet this long too. It's very possible Fox has the rights to him as well, especially with him being part of the X-Men in the comics since Dark Reign. That would totally be taking a dump in my cheerios though so I'm going to pretend I didn't have that thought.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 3:44 PM
@Anil, To be honest, I don't know Zemo very well as a character. I think having Skull, Zola, and Zemo would probably be too much.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 4:04 PM
Zemo was responsible (in the comics) for Cap falling in the Atlantic, Bucky's supposed death, and Cap's trip to the freezer aisle. IMO, if they are planning on using Zemo later in the CA series of films, he'll be in CA:TFA.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 4:30 PM
I really think they can just make Red Skull do all the important stuff Zemo did.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/26/2010, 4:46 PM
Yeah, I think so too. In the comics, Zemo was the original 'revenge motivator' for Cap, which is nothing that RS can't do. In a lot of ways though, Zemo was the anti-Cap. Cap led the Avengers, Zemo formed the Masters of Evil. It all depends on what they want to do with both the continuing Cap series and the Avengers.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/26/2010, 5:17 PM
@Anil, If they can do it well, then I'm all for it, but it's definitely a risk that if they put him in, the development of the villains will suffer due to their numbers. It's better than those aliens from Ultimate Avengers though.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/27/2010, 8:08 AM
@Anil I agree, Zemo is a huge portion of the Cap story and further story development for possible TBolts. I would prefer to see him and Red Skull in a competitive setup as the main antagonists. At the same time, the movie universe is not going to always adhere to the comics completely. So if they retcon and exclude Zemo, I don't think the movie would suffer. I think expanding on Winter Soldier is the best way to continue the story after the first movie and Avengers.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/27/2010, 8:11 AM
A little off topic, but while we're discussing follow up movies I think instead of making a big deal of the Invaders in this movie, they should make IM3 based around Stark vs. Namor. "Iron Man: Rise of Atlantis". I'd drool. I'm contemplating writing a script myself and sending it to Feige lol.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/27/2010, 10:19 AM
@Anil I like the idea of bringing in Zemo in later films, especially including the T-Bolts. I really want to see the Civil War brought to film, even if they have to leave out core characters like Spiderman and Richards.

I think Mandarin is most likely how they are planning it, which will be awesome. I want to see Fin Fang Foom too. And HULKBUSTER armor in Avengers.

Gonna go check out your fan fic now too :)
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/27/2010, 1:13 PM
Not to throw cold water on you Pools, but Favreau has pretty much confirmed (i.e. strongly hinted) that Mandarin is the villain in IM3.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/27/2010, 2:19 PM
@Sturmpionier Hey, I can have wet dreams. I'm all for Mandarin regardless. He's really the logical choice.

I really want to see the next few sets of armor he comes out with. They have done a good job of having 2-3 versions of armor in both movies so far. Like I said, Hulkbuster is a must have for Avengers. Hopefully we get something like Extremis that he doesn't have to have a machine peel off him. And the new Bleeding Edge armor would be amazing.
Sturmpionier
Sturmpionier - 7/27/2010, 3:08 PM
Yeah, I'm hoping for hulkbuster and the red and crimson. Extremis would take a lot of explanation, but that might be the way to go if you're going after the Mandarin, idk.
VictorVon
VictorVon - 7/27/2010, 10:33 PM
@BIGBMH
This is a good article. I've read the other two as well, and think you have some good ideas. I can tell you've put a lot of thought into them, and your signature videos at the end are a nice touch.

I agree that Cap needs all the screen time he can get, especially considering this is an origin story. And, I agree they need to be careful with how much screen time they devote to the Invaders/Howling Commandos (I believe JJ has already clarified that the group will be a mix of both), but I think they can get Namor in there without taking away from Steve Rogers.

In Star Wars, they mention the Emperor, but it isn't until Empire Strikes Back that we get to see him. Even then, when we are introduced to the character visually/officially, his presence doesn't take away from Vader. In fact, I think it adds to him. Then, in Return of the Jedi, we get to really see what the Emperor is all about.

My point is, I think they could show Namor, in a scene or two, without having to expound on his back story, ala "Empire...", and set him up for the Avengers, ala "Return...". This way, those of us that already know who he is can get our rocks off, and for the uninitiated, they can wait until The Avengers or a later film to learn all about the King of Atlantis.

Besides, like you hinted, the alien arc from the Ultimates wasn't exactly the greatest. If Namor is introduced, they can have him team with Loki and the Hulk as the central villains in The Avengers, thereby sticking to the source material as much as possible.

I hope that Cap is shown in more than one battle, even if it's just a Rocky-esque montage. Perhaps this is where we can catch a glimpse of Namor, or the android Torch.

Also, as far as the idea of too many villains, that also can be made to work, if done correctly. Again , I think Star Wars is a good example.

You have the main villain, Vader (Red Skull), His boss the Emperor (Hitler), Underlings such as the various Generals and Bounty Hunters like Boba Fett (Zola and Zemo), and all the while the audience is transfixed with Darth Vader.

I think you're right that they would be wise to exclude the "face in the stomach-monitor" version of Zola. However, I think Zemo would be a wise addition.

You're right that they could easily have Red Skull do the things Zemo is known to have done in the comics, but if their only reason for combining the characters like Whiplash and Crimson-Dynamo from IM2 is to save screen time for Red Skull, then I think they're missing the mark.

It would not be, in my opinion, too much of a strain on the character development of the Skull to include his rivalry with Zemo for Hitler's affections. Zemo is credited with "killing" Captain America. Imagine how upset Agent Smith would have been if some other agent had offed Neo...Yeah, the Red Skull would be even angrier!

I share your concern for too many characters from Rogers' WW2 past showing up in modern times, and said as much in my own article concerning Cap. Zemo's descendants make it into the modern era and take up the family mantle. Red Skull makes it out of the 40's too. Bucky. Zola? It starts to get ridiculous. Maybe this is a better reason to never include Zemo or Namor at all.

I think you'll get your way and Namor will miss out; Probably Baron Zemo too. But I think that they "could" be successfully included, should Marvel want it to happen.
Poolsonx
Poolsonx - 7/28/2010, 4:24 AM
I'm picturing an easter egg in the middle of a big war scene. Cap is fighting his way through nazi's, and off in the distance there is a big explosion all Bay style lol. A tank gets tossed across the field by some guy in a green speedo before he flies offscreen. A big "WTF was that?" kind of thing that takes 5 seconds of screen time. Doesn't require any decisive casting or explanation, just tease fans a bit.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/28/2010, 7:07 AM
@VictorVon, thanks for the comment. You make some good points and your comparison to the villains of Star Wars is pretty solid. I'm kind of nervous about the movie since it's a one shot kind of thing and I want it to be great. There are some things that I think have the potential to work well if done right but really hurt the movie if done poorly, so I kind of want them to play it safe and not take too many risks. To me Zemo is a risk and maybe not one worth taking.
I'm with you on wanting to see him in a full scale battle. It would really feel like something is missing without it. Just do one and I'll be happy.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/30/2010, 9:01 AM
@brazilianbatman, Thank you. I think they could do a Namor movie that showed his involvement in the war. The Captain America movie isn't covering everything Cap did, so there are other stories besides what being shown.
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