What the Sony hack told us about studio expectations

What the Sony hack told us about studio expectations

Are the budgetary requirements and expectations going to destroy the golden age of comic book movies??

By m0th3r - Dec 06, 2014 03:12 PM EST
Filed Under: Other
Source: The Hollywood Reporter
It appears we are some lucky people. After years and years of bad movies, long waits and poor acting we are finally in what is going to be called the "Golden Age" of comic book movies. The true renaissance of creation for what we all really do love. This past year has been exception for both quality and box office returns. Not only has the quality been generally higher, we had a completely unknown property claim (and maybe hold) the top domestic spot and we have one franchise nearly double their best previous outing. But there is a wolf in the henhouse no one sees and it appears the recent Sony hack has exposed it. Are studio expectations being met? And is the return on investment worth their while? Let’s elaborate a little bit more. Follow me for a bit if your dont mind...
 
This year for Comic Book movies we saw Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Xmen: Days of Future Past, Amazing Spiderman 2, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turles and Big Hero Six. Personally I really like 5 out of 6 and they all appeared to do well at the box office. 

Each movies production budget, domestic profit and international profit is outline below.  


Guardians                                                         170m     331m     771m
Captain America                                              170M     259m     714m
Xmen: Days of Future Past                            200m     233m     746m
Amazing Spiderman                                        255m*   202m     708m
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles                      124m     192m     477m
Big Hero 6                                                         165m     171m     228m**
 
*Deadline reported, not from Sony.
**Not a full release internationally as of 12/6/2014
 
The above figures do not include the marketing budgets for each project. Marketing budgets are mysterious and highly debated subject here on this site. Fairly prominent people in the movie news scene (i.e. Those that do this and get paid for it..) have claimed that some of these budgets were 100-150m for some films over the past year. We have ZERO concrete data on this and hopefully as these Sony leaks appear we will know more. This is an important caveat. This takes directly from the profitability of the film. Profit is the name of the game.  And remember, profits are derived from the box office (studio usually gets 50% of that figure) plus extras like merch, dvd, and other goodies. 
 
We do have some concrete data on some details about profitability and Sony’s productions. During the release of Sony info by hackers, The Hollywood reporter ran a story about the profitability figures for such 2013 movies as 'This Is the End,' 'Grown Ups 2,' 'Captain Phillips' and 'American Hustle'. Although the profitability of these films was interesting that was not the curious part of the article.  Let’s just quote the article:
 
The non-encrypted document, which was prepared by SPE’s senior VP of finance and controller Curtis Crider, offered up numbers rarely discussed outside of studio board rooms. “Currently, approximately $1B in production spending can be expected to deliver $500M-$600M in profits,” the letter says. “Through his continued focus on financial discipline, Doug hopes to improve that ratio to a point where $800-$900M in production spending delivers $500-$600M in profits.”
 
Wait..what? 1b investing to generate 500-600m profit?!? Well, isn’t that special? So if we understand properly that Sony is looking for more than 50 cents on every dollar invested RETURNED as profit. Let’s look at Amazing Spiderman 2 again. It was reported by Deadline that the movie cost 255m(UPDATE: IMDB has this at 230m, WIkipedia at 200m so looks like it varies) to make and marketing was AT LEAST 150m since we all remember the onslaught of trailers and materials. Even if we reduce the budget down to a reasonable 200m we are still left with almost 700m to get into the realm of profitability. Sony in the best made about 10-15m in profit plus DVD sales. 350m in with 15m out is about 4 cents on the dollar profit for investment. Not even close to the expectations places on the films mentioned above in the leaked documents. Compared with say GoTG with 170m in budget and probably 100m in marketing meaning the movie returned about 230m in profit so far on a 170m investment.  It also appears that BH6 may actually be a 'bust' also when the smoke clears from the theaters, although the nature of kids movies means higher toy/dvd sales. Additionally, compare that 1b of current total production budget to the 255m ASM2 budget. That movie use almost 1/4 of the overall available funds slotted for studio production.
   
As more data and information becomes available because of the Sony hacking incident I am sure we will find out some exact details on Amazing Spiderman (1&2) production, costs, feedback and quality/story problems but this is a bigger issue. This begs the question of what others studios’ expect to get in returns at the executive level. Well it appears that 50-60% of production budget IN PROFIT is the goal.  I would imagine numbers are consistently close to satisfy investors from other studios such as Fox, Disney and Warner Brothers. Are we reaching out budgetary limits? Will saturation cause these numbers to dip more into a zone of weak profitability causing their demise??  Looking at the other franchises and comparing the numbers we can see what the future may hold for some studio plans. 
Sound off below!
 
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JoeMomma29
JoeMomma29 - 12/6/2014, 3:36 PM
Hmmmmm according to one idiot member last night that WB is on the verge of bankruptcy.......
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 3:39 PM
@JoeMomma29 Wow..really. Most of these guys do run close to the edge. Didnt we have rumors of Rupert Murdock (fox) trying to buy WB a few months back too?
AgentZero
AgentZero - 12/6/2014, 3:40 PM
You should take into account that the studios only get around 50% of the box office money when it's all said and done. The other half or so goes to the movie theatres. So the profits you estimated should be lower.

That's why TASM 2 didn't really turn a profit for Sony
Emblemmaniac
Emblemmaniac - 12/6/2014, 3:40 PM
@JoeMomma29

If you can PM the name, please tell. It would be fun to hear
Emblemmaniac
Emblemmaniac - 12/6/2014, 3:43 PM
@M0th3r

It was not talk of buying Warner Brothers, it was for Time Warner.
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 3:44 PM
@Agent Yes, i probably should edit that in..they get on average 50% of the profits. TASM2 probably didnt turn a profit. I tried to keep from taking a 'fan side' in this because i am a card carrying MCU person.

And also Sony has ZERO merch rights so they get none of that either..They would be better off letting Marvel Studios do it, get 10-12% off the top, and make WAY more money. All pure cash since no investment of 300m to retrieve that.
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 3:44 PM
Thanks!
JasonBlue
JasonBlue - 12/6/2014, 3:48 PM
Warner Bros should open their own theme park to keep the cash flow positive over the long run like Disney
batz11
batz11 - 12/6/2014, 3:52 PM
Believe the idiot member was JoeMomma -- oh, wait...
;)
kinghulk
kinghulk - 12/6/2014, 3:52 PM
i think everything will be ok as long as they dont go crazy with their budgets especially for origin films. iron man and TFA had a budget of 140 million whilst the incredible hulk and thor had a 150 million budget. in comparison MOS had a budget of 225 million (bigger than avengers) and despite making a profit struggled to do so because the budget was so big, and BB had a 150 million budget and made 4million more than the 1st avenger but then it's sequel made over a billion.

i just hope marvel doesent get overconfident when making new origins films and give then huge budgets and like wise i hope WB learn from their mistakes (green lantern) and give their wonder woman, aquaman........ films a smaller budget.
supes123
supes123 - 12/6/2014, 3:52 PM
there's no way WB is on the verge on bankruptcy
Emblemmaniac
Emblemmaniac - 12/6/2014, 3:56 PM
@supes123

sure, they have economic issues (there for the lay of for 200 employees) but they are not bankruptcylevel of bad. Otherwize they would be extremely stupid to get so big name of actors like they got for Suicide squad
XelCorp
XelCorp - 12/6/2014, 3:58 PM
Sony= SHIELD= Hydra
XelCorp
XelCorp - 12/6/2014, 4:05 PM
Yes let's all admit it @Jollem. Sh*t is gonna be goin down for the next few years (Cla$$h of the Studios)
supes123
supes123 - 12/6/2014, 4:07 PM
@Emblemmanic

yeah, they also wouldn't be spending billions of advertising on these upcoming movies either if they were about to go bankrupt
BlackIceJoe
BlackIceJoe - 12/6/2014, 4:08 PM
I personally am surprised Sony doesn't make movies out of their video game franchises. With Sony saying they collect no money from the sales of things like Spider-Man, you would think they would try to sell toys from their stuff instead. I can totally see a Ratchet and Clank movie doing well. The toys would sell well too. Even a movie like Jak and Daxter would be a hit with kids and parents.

A live action Killzone movie, I could see being a great space epic film. I know they have plans for Uncharted, but it still isn't official. Even an Infamous movie would be a big hit for them. I find it hard to believe with comic book movies doing well at the box office they haven't decided to make a live action film.

If Sony truly was smart and clearly they aren't, because of how many financial problems they have been having, they would start making video game movies. Say what you want about the Resident Evil movies they put out, but they have been selling for Sony. That it shouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to do the same thing with their franchises too.
IamnotYou
IamnotYou - 12/6/2014, 4:11 PM
It tells us that they know they make shitty movies, have no real plan or leadership and don't know what to do about it.
String
String - 12/6/2014, 4:16 PM
THIS SOOO explains why FOX went so cheap with Fantastic Four? The less expensive (low-tech) way in making the movie -the more profit they can get back. Under FOX, we probably will never get a big budget version of FF -like FOX is giving to X-Men or Marvel does with all its movies.
kinghulk
kinghulk - 12/6/2014, 4:18 PM
string- can you blame them after the last 2 movies?
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 4:20 PM
@Jollem I love your doom and gloom reaction...yes i was sensationalizing it a bit.. :)
kong
kong - 12/6/2014, 4:20 PM
@BlackIceJoe

That makes so much sense, but I think they're afraid because of the video game movie curse, but I think with Fassbender's Assassin's Creed, Duncan Jones's Warcraft, and maybe even the Uncharted movie the curse will be broken.
Emblemmaniac
Emblemmaniac - 12/6/2014, 4:23 PM
@Melkaticox

Well, Jared is quite a name for the sake of 30 sec from mars, Tom Hardy has become a name for the several years, as well as Margot, but sure they are prehaps not big name's as Will Smith.
Emblemmaniac
Emblemmaniac - 12/6/2014, 4:25 PM
@BlackIceJoe

Well, they are in development for a Killzonemovie (last i checked i do think that Tom Hardys name as well as Paul Greengrass name was attached to it), they are doing the Uncharted movie, and their are rumors of a Metalgear solid movie
JoeMomma29
JoeMomma29 - 12/6/2014, 4:25 PM
@emblemmaniac

Go to the thread about Antman filming wrapping up.......it is still on main and you can read who it is.
Jaffi
Jaffi - 12/6/2014, 4:42 PM
Even if WB were going broke (which they aren't), they sure as hell won't be after Batman v Superman.
gambgel
gambgel - 12/6/2014, 5:07 PM
no way AS2 budget was 255, more than all the other movies of the year. Days of future past had a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge cast, so that alone must have been huge money, then the sentinels and all the other action. So no, 255 is too high for Spiderman 2, which didnt have the scope of movies like Avatar or Star Wars, with all those sets, costumes, spaceships and all.
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 5:23 PM
@gambel Yea, i thought that was high. I cited it because Sony has not released the official budget. The article mentions its high, and i rewind it back to 200m. Keep in mind DoFP is officially at 200m but most agree its at least 225m and Screenrant even reported it at 275m. I suspect studios lie quite a bit...thats what great about these docs is some inside information.

The second part about star wars is a good point..But even more, at 200m its higher GoTG which is a CGI festival and still costs 30+ million less. What happened at Sony that the ran so high?
marvel72
marvel72 - 12/6/2014, 5:27 PM
@gambgel
@m0th3r

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 budget according to.......

IMDB $230,000,000
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Wikipedia page $200,000,000
Box Office Mojo N/A
krylonshadow
krylonshadow - 12/6/2014, 5:28 PM
There are some big issues with your methodology. First of all, box office and DVD sales are not the only way movie releases generate profit (advertising / product placement, soundtracks, digital sales, television and streaming rights, and many other things). Secondly, The Amazing Spider-Man movie series sucks, and Sony is pretty oblivious to this, so it's no surprise that they are spending more money than their competitors but not performing as well as them. Marvel Studios and FOX are most likely meeting or exceeding their expectations in terms of overall profits resulting from these movie franchises. I expect DC / Warner Bros. will reach the same point (but it may be a slow start, profitable movie franchises don't always get built overnight). All this suggests is that Sony does not have good production value--spending more money does not implicitly result in a better film.
Supes17
Supes17 - 12/6/2014, 5:34 PM
How the [frick] is WB on the level of bankruptcy? You know how many films on the top 50 highest grossing of all time list are Warner Brothers?

I don't either but you can check I'm sure it's a high percentage lmao
m0th3r
m0th3r - 12/6/2014, 5:39 PM
@marvel72 i used mojo...thanks...so still a mystery. Glad i did my math based on 200m. Even with it at 200m, the lowest one..its a serious bust on return on investment. At the higher end, its doesnt even make money.

@Krylonshadow True, but amazing spiderman one did about 37m in sales of DVDs (thats not profit) and that peanuts compared to BO results. Also dont forget Sony get nothing from Merch, Marvel owns that now. They bought it after the last movie put them in a lurch.

I am suggesting they are getting bad bang for their buck, yes. So is Fox really if you believe the 'hype' numbers of 250m budget and 200m for marketing (i know, its hype...), and Disney not so great on Big Hero Six. If they are not getting value for production budget they will move that money elsewhere we the fan loses. And totally just throwing money at a film wont make it better...best example ever is Water World. :)

My worry is that as they spend more, expectations rise and when it does not deliver we will lose out as fans..thats all.
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