A Question About Man Of Steel For MOS Fans

A question to people who thought Man Of Steel was a GOOD film. Not trying to troll or get anyone riled up. I just want your opinion.

Editorial Opinion
By aresww3 - Oct 12, 2013 07:10 AM EST
Filed Under: Superman
Source: ComicBookMovie.com

I want to come straight out and tell you guy my opinion on Man Of Steel before asking this question. I would say it was a very disappointing movie. I don´t hate it and I was even willing to defend it until I found out they´re throwing Batman into the sequel. I thought ok it made some mistakes, but in the end a second outing for Supes could improve upon a flawed movie that had some really good ideas.

However my mood turned with the Batman announcement, especially in the way they are framing it. I have had discussions with many people who support the movie and said I think the film suffered from a lot of things, but 3 things in particular stood out for me as bad story telling.

1. Jor El The Ultimate Deux Ex Machina.

Part of the heroes journey in a film is to figure out how to beat the badguy. It´s a journey of discovery in which we the audience are put in the shoes of the hero, as he fights against the odds to figure out how to beat the unbeatable monster.

The problem with Man Of Steel is everything Superman needed to do was provided by good old space daddy, rather than have him figure anything out. This meant there was no mystery to the film at all. No fight scenes or feats of strength in the movie had any consequence.

2. To many illogical occurrences for a film that took itself very seriously.

I´m not going to go into this but we can talk about this in the comments if you want.

3. Little to know Character development of key characters. Especially the protagonist.

I think the film spent alot of time building up Zod and Jor´El at the expense of Superman. This is where my question arises. As i said I´m not trying to diss anyone who like the movie, but I want to know from supporters of the movie, can you tell me one character defining piece of dialogue for Cavill´s Clark or Superman. Not him as a child, but of him as an adult.

Because I think Cavill was seriously short changed, he fit the role beautifully, but Superman who is a very complex and interesting character seemed to be reduced to a series of frowns.

Is there a moment in the film where Cavill says something that truly defines who the character is and what he´s going through. I should add I don´t think the scene where he claims his father said the world was not ready to find out who he is counts. That just restates everything that has already been seen in the movie.

So the question again: Has Cavill Got One Character Defining Moment or Dialogue in the whole Man Of Steel Film? And, if not does that not make the film an instant fail in bring us a new fresh take on the Superman mythos and character.

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aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 7:39 AM
I think whether you like or dislike TASM is subjective. I don´t even like Spider-Man as a character and I thought it was way to soon to see another Spider-Man origin, but I think TASM was fantastic. I also think if it was the first ever Spider-Man film and the Raime ones hadn´t come before it would be a 100% movie and seen as one of the best CBM´s. TASM suffers simply because it´s a reboot and nothing else. Good story, great acting, good tone, a bit of silly villain, but why start out with the best villian, best to start out with something a bit less challenging than Zod and build up to Zod level characters. I think this Spider-Man series is off to a great start. It´s my seconbd fave spider-man movie after spider-man 2. Again and I swear this I don´t even like Spider_man and i´m a huge superman fan. But I´m also a movie fan and MOS was not a better movie than TASM.
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 10/12/2013, 8:11 AM
Soto

TASM deserves defense because it gets unnecessary amounts of hate :P and it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Actually, if anything, it's a great movie. :P :P :P
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 10/12/2013, 8:12 AM
Well, it does on this site, at least!
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 10/12/2013, 8:21 AM
Soto
We all have different opinions. You dislike (won't say 'hate,' unless you're 'dislike' has grown even more upon the movie) TASM, VIRILEMAN dislikes TDKR. But, com'on, some of the stuff people complain about TASM is just flat out stupid. It's just something to whine about. And TDKR had more going for it than TASM. We all expected it to be something ground breaking because of TDK. I mean, while it does have a few flaws, I love TDKR personally, but why is it so bad if someone else hates it (for valid reasons) and loves TASM? To be honest there's really not that much wrong with TASM, besides maybe pacing.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 8:46 AM
next.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 9:10 AM
@jollem - In the strictest sense you´re right Jor´el wasn´t a deus ex machina, but he was as close as possible to one. The only difference is he wasn´t an unexpected solution to the heroes impossible situation.

In fact what am I saying, that wormhole was a deus ex machina. A wormhole that opens on Earth that just sends Krytonians back to the phantom zone without sucking anything else into it. Nothing in the movie suggested why this technology would work. When Zod was originally sent to the phantom zone a ship was taken out of the atmosphere if I remember correctly. Nothing was sucked in. It didn´t seem in any sense to be a wormhole that would vacume things into it. So yeah bizzare physics to solve impossible situation for the hero, which was given away by a conscious computer, which was a some how sentient and there to to tell the hero everything he needed to do. Even if you don´t accept that as a deus ex machina, still the fact is Supes accomplished nothing really apart from feats of strength that we knew he had, and, of course snapping Zods neck.

People who complain about Superman Returns (again in my humble opinion a better movie) forget that in that Superman actually saved the day using brains rather than brawn. As camp as it might be the whole story came together with him wanting to lose his powers, achieving that, then needing to gain them back to save the world meaning he had to sacrifice his father to do so, and then using the same method to trick the unbeatable Krytonians into losing their powers.

It all came full circle. I mean I will always love the Christopher Reeves movies even though there´s some cheese about them, they atleast had heart and understood the superman character, where as MOS, I don´t know. I have two good things to say about it, great acting, amazing visuals, everything else is a bit of let down.

By the way can anyone answer my question with quote they find memorable.

@soto - Just because we know who superman is doesn´t mean the movie can rely on that knowledge as an excuse not to develop the characters. This isn´t SUPERMAN SUPERMAN. This was their version of Superman, and I left the cinema feeling I didn´t know much about him. Why he was heroic? Why he insisted on saving people? How he felt about being bullied as a kid? why he went from emo kid to nice frowny guy? why he cared about humans when we were always assholes to him.

Someone also said that I can´t discount the kid Clark as character development, its like saying in Batman Begins the bits of him as a child don´t count. But here´s the point the bits of Bruce as a child in BB coherently connected to him as an adult. Added to that there were many moments of Bales Bruce that were character defining so I understood how the child Bruce was connected to the young Bruce. I hope you see what I´m getting at. You can´t just develop the kid and say ok done now the adult clark can just punch things, no need to develop him as a character.

By the way even the young Clarks weren´t all that developed and please tell me any memorable speech that he gave that showed his motivation. They easily could have been renamed generic sad bullied kid 1 and 2.

deus ex machina |ˈdāəs eks ˈmäkənə, -ˈmak-|
noun
an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
ORIGIN late 17th cent.: modern Latin, translation of Greek theos ek mēkhanēs,‘god from the machinery.’ In Greek theater, actors representing gods were suspended above the stage, the denouement of the play being brought about by their intervention.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 9:32 AM
@deus ex machina - Admittedly though the Deus Ex Machina in MOS was not worse than Superman time travelling by spinning the world backwards in Superman 1, but that still puts a smile on my face to this day. I might just be sucker for 70 and 80s movies and some of their innocent charm :)
Emjeed
Emjeed - 10/12/2013, 9:36 AM
Lois: If the machine is making the area around it like Krypton. wouldn't be harmful to you?

Superman: Maybe, but I'm not about to let that stop me.

It's like they ripped that line out of action comics. THAT IS SUPERMAN.

also while he was holding down Zod. His screams "Stop.. Stop!..Don't do this!" That was another huge Superman moment.. and shannon killed it with his delivery of "Never!"
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 9:42 AM
@yossarian - thats right and that is going to kill off this comic renaissance, because if superman fans applaud this while General audiences think its stupid, the GA will eventually stop going to CBM´s. Why bother when every other genre has a much higher standard of story telling. Right now, Batman Begins, Avengers and Dark Knight changed that perception, but if they keep pumping out stories like Man Of Steel soon people wlll just move on to the next cool fad.

By the way just interested why didn´t you like TASM. I´m confused. I guess maybe its because I don´t like Spider-Man so my expectations were so low I was pleasantly surprised. I really thought it was a decent movie. Nothing mind blowing, but from a comicbookmovie standard I thought it was pretty damn good. Then again I haven´t rushed back to watch it again, but that´s mainly cause I just thought here we go again, Batman´s dark so now every superhero has to be dark to have success. Spider-Man for me is not a dark, gritty character and making him such does not fit him. However having said that I pretty much enjoyed the movie for waht it was going for.

Superman however inspite of popular opinion is very able to have a gritty, realistic, modern take on the character. Not dark, but set in a realistic kind of world. Its been done in the comics many times and works well. Red Son, Earth One and Birth right amongst others which is why I´m curious as to how this film got it so badly wrong. If they wanted great dialogue for superman all they had to do was read a goddamn comic. Seriously anyone of the thousand great superman stories could have provided a couple of very cool character defining moments, which would have given the action scenes so much more currency, because I would have cared what was happening to the hero.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:04 AM
Superman: Maybe, but I'm not about to let that stop me.

It's like they ripped that line out of action comics. THAT IS SUPERMAN.

also while he was holding down Zod. His screams "Stop.. Stop!..Don't do this!" That was another huge Superman moment.. and shannon killed it with his delivery of "Never!"









The above are character defining. These are examples from Batman Begins of how Batman was made into a rich, believable, psychologically well-rounded character.

The examples you gave are not character defining. What supes said about having to try is scratching the surface of character as it hadn´t been established up until that point why exactly he feels he should always try and save the day.

And just so you don´t think I´m some Batman mark:

I will add some character defining moments of Superman in the article from the comics so you can see what I mean.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:09 AM
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:13 AM
OK here we go here´s a character defining moment. Superman Earth One Part 2:

Superman: Earth One II<br />What happened next.<br />Fuzzball lay lifeless and inert in the cold grey dirt that clung to rock of Earth&#8217;s only Satellite. Here in the cold of a lunar grave this feline companion of Earth&#8217;s greatest champion lay in death, a simple wooden cross marking her last resting place.<br />Clark knew that someday he would have some explaining to do, but every time he looked up at silver light of hunters moon, he was reminded of her - his loyal and ever present companion.<br />Superman did not regret his youthful last indulgence for a his animal friend. Rather even now his steely blue eyes would still moisten in remembrance of her unconditional love.<br />No one could have guessed what would happen next.<br />When the anomaly appeared briefly in the Sol system it registered large on the GEA Scale – Gravitational Equivalents of an Atom; this alone made this micro-black hole unusual among the atomic sized brethren of the much larger Stella-Mass black holes of deep space. These GEA&#8217;s were tiny legacies of the Big Bang, and these micro black holes zipped across the vastness of space, even harmlessly passing through the Earth from time to time. This particular example was large enough to trip seismic detectors as it passed through our world. Its course eventually bisecting that of the moon.<br />The heart of this black hole was always vibrating in complex ways across the three known physical dimensions of space time as well as the extra dimensions as described by String Theory, named the quantum foam.<br />As chance would have it as this tiny anomaly passed through the lunar pet cemetery; plot of one, it&#8217;s black heart vibrated in a uniquely strange way. This tiny piece of Earth One universe was linked momentarily through Hyper Time, and to Earth-26.<br />String Theory calls this multidimensional centre of a black hole a Fuzzball. Clark called his kitten Fuzzball for equally fuzzy reasons. Neither the Physicists nor the Man of Tomorrow could have anticipated this chance encounter of inter-dimensional energies through the event horizon of a wandering micro-black hole would channel cosmic energy into the lifeless form of this dead cat.<br />In another place and another time, Ted Knight had wielded the Cosmic Rod as Starman. On Earth 26 Rodney Rabbit had consumed the Cosmic Carrot, now those trans-dimensional energies coursed through Fuzzball, her body had been preserved by the cold of the lunar environment, frozen in time, now her cells pulsed with primal energy, with forces unknown to Earthly Sciences, forces from the hidden dimensions of the quantum foam.<br />The Cat that was once dead, was both dead and alive simultaneously in this moment of quantum uncertainty.<br />In the world of three dimensions Fuzzball lived, bursting from ground like a scalded cat, the one-eyed white feline leapt earthward from the surface of the moon.<br />Her burial shroud had been transformed with her, infused with the cosmic energies from Hyper Time. Buried in a red baby blanket, her favourite, she now wore this as a cloak, her scarred eye was covered by a bad-ass star spangled silver on black eye-patch, and her extended claws glowed white with cosmic light as Fuzzball declared both her surprise and anger at her unexpected circumstances.<br />The last thing she remembered was feeling cold and sickly, but all the better for the gentle touch of a loving hand. Her scar flashed red and the stars on her eye patch danced.<br />Fuzzball did not fully understand why her long dead eye could now see beyond normal time and space, but like the one eyed god Odin of Norse myth she had lost a mortal eye and gained second sight.<br />Aided by her new supernatural instincts the cat sought her home, she sought out Clark Kent. New thoughts raced through her accelerated feline intellect as Hyper Times Cosmic energies enlivened all her senses.<br />She saw him, resplendent in red and blue. The glowing purple thing had hold of Clark, and as it laughed the glowing purple thing swelled and grew all the larger.<br />“I don&#8217;t know how you escaped your containment cell,” He gasped, “but you&#8217;re going back there Parasite.”<br />“I think not Superman.” The glowing Parasite cackled. “I have you now. I have you&#8217;re energy, even now you wither before me, soon you&#8217;ll be gone, and all that you are will be mine.”<br />Fuzzball could see Clark falter, his face agonised, waxen, as if he was losing weight becoming drawn, emaciated before her eyes.<br />As a hunter she knew this game, it was Cat and mouse; where the prey was toyed with, until death.<br />Her back raised she hissed in anger, and sparks shot from her fur as Hyper Cosmic energy pulsated through her form. Fuzzball leapt forward, her glowing claws extended, past the surprised face of Clark Kent, scratching at the bloated form of the Parasite.<br />Her Hyper Time Cosmic powered claws tore through more than the material fabric of the Parasites flesh, but through the energy bloated form of his leech like body, like a plastic water bag slashed by ten razor sharp knives in unison. The flash of energy was as bright as the sun, and her Clark reacted to it, in the split second it hit him, he used the last of his strength to fall upon the fire that was the parasite. At the same time his incredible Alien physiology drank back in the purloined power.<br />The fallen Parasite lay extinguished and unconscious, taken down by a cat scratching.<br />Superman looked down at his red boots.<br />A one eyed, cape wearing, bad-ass star spangled eye-patch wearing cat looked back up at him.<br />His eidetic memory looked past these details, it was a face he recognised.<br />“Fuzzball?” Clark gasped.<br />“Meooow.” Said Fuzzball as she rubbed his boot with her body. “Prrrrrr.” she added deeply and with meaning. Her wide eyes spoke volumes, and Superman&#8217;s X-ray vision was deployed looking for her favourite brand of pouched cat food.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:29 AM

Heres another example of a character defining moment from Superman comics.

Again I repeat both moments you gave me are pretty generic and could be said by any number of heroes and actually have
MrCameron
MrCameron - 10/12/2013, 10:30 AM


Haven't we been over this stuff already?
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:31 AM
I await your reply. Because maybe I´m missing something.
shf4839
shf4839 - 10/12/2013, 10:33 AM
SPOILER ALERT on the off chance you have not seen the movie yet.






I think that Man of Steel compared to some of the previous superman film was a good film notice I said a good film not a great film. It was better than 3 and 4 in my opinion and I just did not like superman returns, Bryan Singer has done much better work than what he delivered with that film.

Man of Steel in my opinion had some defining moments, I felt that when as a kid he saved the school bus and the kids on it as a kid was a defining moment. It showed that here is a kid who has these amazing gifts that has been convinced he should be terrified of people and what they will do to him should they ever find out, even though I don't think there would have been anything they could have done to him. He still chose to be a hero, still at that young of an age chose to expose himself even if it was only to the few kids not completely freaking out and that saw what he had done. The same can be said about the oil rig scene, It felt to me that him being on the boat was him trying to hide from his destiny, and yet destiny found him, no matter where he went He had a duty to be a hero, and he always stepped up and did it, He turned himself in when zod demanded it, because that was the hero thing to do, was the best way to save lives. The only super human scene where he didn't benefit or try to benefit mankind was when he trashed the truck, that was just about making himself feel better.

I agree that the development was lacking but I think a large part of that is because they went the origin story route again. Not that I am against an origin story I really enjoyed TASM. I just felt that he could have been better developed if they had taken a little longer on the script. I think that Superman is actually a very difficult character to develop after thinking on it for a while, I mean if you go to in depth you will lose your casual audience that just want to see superman punch things.


Think about

hulk 2003 compared to the incredible hulk, Hulk 2003 I actually enjoyed more because I felt they developed him more, and some people will say that's because incredible was a man on the run story, I just feel that Incredible failed because like IM2 they were trying to find a balance of how many easter eggs and cameos that marvel wanted to add to build hype for the avengers.

I think that Man of Steel they tried to combine the two, they wanted to go in depth with Jor-EL and Zods relationship, and how far they had come gone from being best friends and colleagues to polar opposites. Yet when it came time to develop clark they were kind of trapped completing that stories arc, Zod Had to Find Kal-EL partly because what his father had done with the Codex and partly because he wanted his last words to Lara to be true, it was the only way he could punish Jor-EL who was long dead at that time, for stopping him from saving his world. I think the character that got the most development in the film was zod. The thing about superman is he is a character that was created in a different time when men were good because it was the right thing to do, not because they needed to be rewarded. I think because he is a simple character at heart when you try to develop him too much, if you try to over complicate him and it is doomed to failure.

Superman as a character is a man that when you boil him down to who he is, he is a man that has taken on our best traits and stayed above our worst and more basic instincts, He has all this power all these gifts yet he does not do what most if not all of us would do, most people if they had the abilities he has would use those abilities to help themselves and only help out if it was something that would benefit them in some way. He is completely selfless, the only selfish behavior he had in the whole movie was how long it took him to become who he was meant to be, and that came from Jor-ELs speech if the space daddy as you put it had not been included in this film he may have not aspired to be the man he was meant to be.

As for the Illogical occurrences I think that is a side effect of them trying to overcome the lack of development they found themselves trapped in. In short I think all three of your questions are tied together.

Because they could not over develop a character that because of his foundation is truly simple and truly good they had to find ways to move the story along and space daddy was a convenient way to move the story as was any illogical occurrences, not that I am making excuses but I think that is the penalty they chose to pay by taking an origin story route with a character whose origin is simple.
aresww3
aresww3 - 10/12/2013, 10:35 AM
@sotojuiceman - I don´t know what comics you´ve read, but most comics I read are alot better than 90% of the garbage that comes out of Hollywood, including their superhero movies. Its this low expectation of what comicbookmovies should be that puzzles me.


@AnnoDomini - why did you hate superman earth one? because it was thoughtful, had well developed characters, was beautifully drawn, was action packed had a story, wasn´t illogical all things that MOS didn´t have.
CaptainHulk3
CaptainHulk3 - 10/12/2013, 11:35 AM
Omega's funny! & Im lame because I dont know how to do the pic thing! *sits by the tablet eating popcorn waiting on more Omega grifs*
CaptainHulk3
CaptainHulk3 - 10/12/2013, 11:36 AM
Gifs .........my bad!!!
Prime
Prime - 10/12/2013, 3:14 PM
Get.over it already.
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