Ridley Scott Didn't Like The Way JOKER "Celebrated Violence" But Was Blown Away By Joaquin Phoenix

Ridley Scott Didn't Like The Way JOKER "Celebrated Violence" But Was Blown Away By Joaquin Phoenix

Napoleon director has spoken about casting Joaquin Phoenix in the title role, praising the actor's performance in Joker. However, he also criticized how the movie "celebrated violence."

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By MarkCassidy - Oct 08, 2023 09:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Joker

Despite high praise for Hildur Guðnadóttir's haunting score and Joaquin Phoenix's Academy Award-winning lead performance as Arthur Fleck, Todd Phillips' Joker was far from universally loved (it sits at 69% on Rotten Tomatoes), and a lot of the criticism stemmed from a perception that the movie somehow glorified Fleck's violent actions.

This is obviously up for debate (many would argue that it does the exact opposite), but this was Ridley Scott's issue with the film, which he explained while speaking about casting Phoenix as Napoleon in his upcoming biopic while on stage at Deadline’s Contenders London event over the weekend.

Despite his aversion to Joker's supposed "celebration" of violence, Phoenix's stunning work as the iconic Batman villain convinced Scott to cast him in Napoleon.

“I was blown away by his outrageous film Joker. I didn’t like the way it celebrated violence, but Joaquin was remarkable. I thought he’d be an amazing asset to Napoleon, [not only creatively] also in a commercial sense. There were only two actors I had in mind for the role. I won’t mention the other one.”

Again, some would take a very different view of Joker and its admittedly shocking depictions of violence.

Scott went on to reveal that he filmed Napoleon in just 62 days.

“Normally a film like this would be shot in around 110. I discovered years ago that eight cameras are eight times faster. Every department has to be able to keep up with my speed. Actors don’t want to hear the story of life before each take. I discovered that early on. A well-known Welsh actor once told me, ‘I love what you do because you move so quickly.’ You’ve got to know the geometry of the scene. If you don’t, it’ll be 3 p.m. before your first shot gets rolling.”

What do you make of Scott's comments? Would you agree that Joker celebrated violence? Be sure to share your thoughts in the usual place.

Forever alone in a crowd, failed comedian Arthur Fleck seeks connection as he walks the streets of Gotham City. Arthur wears two masks -- the one he paints for his day job as a clown, and the guise he projects in a futile attempt to feel like he's part of the world around him. Isolated, bullied and disregarded by society, Fleck begins a slow descent into madness as he transforms into the criminal mastermind known as the Joker.

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bobevanz
bobevanz - 10/8/2023, 9:41 PM
It doesn't celebrate violence, dude missed the whole point. Anyway I'm sure Napoleon won't celebrate violence lmao
TheNewYorker
TheNewYorker - 10/8/2023, 10:13 PM
@bobevanz - and your opinion is law, right? Stfu, silly lol
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/8/2023, 11:45 PM
@TheNewYorker - Did they say it was law?
mastakilla39
mastakilla39 - 10/9/2023, 12:00 AM
@bobevanz - it kinda did. the ending literally shows him being celebrated by riots after appearing on a show to justify murdering 2 gotham elitist and then killing the show host too. the visual imagery leaned towards supporting violence and riots if you feel that your being victimized.

people in chile and hong kong were wearing arthur fleck masks and make up as a symbol during their riots too.
Lem1
Lem1 - 10/9/2023, 1:25 AM
@mastakilla39 - It's not hard to see why people could take that away from the film, so I don't blame Scott. One of the rioters end up killing the Wayne parents... I suppose Joker and the rioters are villains, obviously, whilst injustice has driven them to that point. It's Irony. I think characters in the film were celebrating violence, though we know who the villains are in the DC universe.
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2023, 6:30 AM
@mastakilla39 - thats actually a really interesting interpretation that I never really considered before.

I think you made a fair point. I can understand if people believe this.

But I also think it's somewhat unfair to judge the themes or ideas in a vacuum. Arthur is mentally ill off his meds, its hard to seperate that from his choices and actions. Arthur is also an unreliable narrator, so this might be entirely fantasy. It's the delusions of a man getting the attention he always wanted. It's a celebration for the character but not for the audience.

Another is about the consequences of a society that ignores its citizens in need(particularly on corrupt, harmful or neglectful policies) and how failed systems produces only anger. Also shows the dangers of malignant narcissists pretending to be righteous martyrs; Arthur doesnt give a shit about their cause and just wants the adoration.

On the ignore mental illness angle, you wonder how many Arthur Flecks are in that crowd or how many of them are just people with actual grievances.

There are so many layers to this film, I think its unfair to just see it as celebrating violence. Something like Expendables or John Wick celebrates violence, this movie examines things on a deeper level.
WarMonkey
WarMonkey - 10/9/2023, 6:46 AM
@mastakilla39 - I was watching tons of videos and followed many of the protestors reporting in Hong Kong every single day for like a year and I never once saw anyone or heard anything about Joker make-up. They weren't riots btw, they had sit-ins and would march on the street. Only violence came from the police and people that were paid to cause trouble by attacking the protestors, like beating them in a train station or on the street or in the airport. No idea about Chile though.
Origame
Origame - 10/9/2023, 6:59 AM
@bobevanz - exactly. If you genuinely believe they were celebrating violence when they had joker kill a talk show host on live TV just for making fun of his public stand up comedy routine, then I'm pretty sure you should end up where joker did at the end of that film. You know, locked up in an insane asylum.

When will people get that a character doing sh!t in a movie doesn't mean the film makers think that's a good thing? No one said anything about the Russo Brothers being "pro genocide" after infinity war. Because clearly they aren't.
Origame
Origame - 10/9/2023, 7:05 AM
@mastakilla39 - yes, because rioters are totally the voice of reason in every situation. 🙄

Dude, it's setting up the joker as we know him and why he does what he does. It's basically criticizing the society that allowed someone like joker to prosper. Not that it's good in and of itself.

And don't give me that Hong Kong bs. Other people misinterpreting the movie isn't on the film. No one blamed the comics for the police appropriating the punisher logo. Instead the writer just called them idiots for not getting the story. You couldn't even choose native English speakers as an example 🤣
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 7:07 AM
@mastakilla39 -

That’s like saying people celebrated the violence that Heath Ledger’s Joker committed in TDK when the Aurora Colorado Shooting was done.
Or assholes who storm the Capitol with military grade weapons while sporting the Punisher’s Symbol on their IOTVs.
Just because you have a bunch of psychos out there who absorb and attach to a character shouldn’t lead to a generalization that people celebrate violence in JOKER.
Bunch of people were Cosplaying in that makeup while committing acts of violence so they can feel justified in what they did because they “feel they ARE the character”. People did it with V from V for Vendetta, and other characters. This is no different.
People who merely cannot separate a movie from reality.

Straight up delusion. It’s almost the equivalent to every goofy couple who thinks they are the REAL LIFE “Joker and Harley Quinn” when you ask them who their favorite villains are.

Or someone who has a bunch of Deadpool bumper stickers on their car because they simply just don’t know when to shut the [frick] up. Y’know. Cause they’re so “opinionated”.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 7:18 AM
@mastakilla39 - I think the music depicts that moment as haunting.
TheNewYorker
TheNewYorker - 10/9/2023, 3:41 PM
@dagenspear - yes, stupid.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 3:51 PM
@TheNewYorker - LORD willing, insulting isn't right.

Their post doesn't say it's law, as far as I'm reading.
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/8/2023, 9:44 PM
Who the hell celebrated the violence in that film???
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/8/2023, 11:45 PM
@MahN166A - Technically the character of Joker did.
MosquitoFarmer
MosquitoFarmer - 10/9/2023, 1:06 AM
@MahN166A - Did you see the riots throughout the movie, especially at the end?
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 1:21 AM
@MosquitoFarmer - That’s one of my issues with the movie. It gestures at having an “eat the rich” message, which, okay fine. But if this revolt against rich people was spearheaded by an incel who actually just wanted to hurt people then what does that say about the classist themes the movie claims it wants to explore?
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2023, 6:42 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - he is not an incel. He is mentally ill. But since incels are the buzz word of our day it's pegged into the film. If Arthur had still received his meds he wouldn't have done the things he did. It's a movie about classism and the dangers of corrupt and neglect policies rather than anger virgins on the internet.
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 6:50 AM
@dagenspear -

Talking about outside the realm of the movie. Under the context of the interview, I feel like that is who he is referring to
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 6:51 AM
@MosquitoFarmer -
I don’t think he is referring to characters in the movie. I feel like he is talking about actual people who watched the film.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 8:40 AM
@EgoEgor - There are other people that the system failed, they didn’t kill people on live TV. You’re doing that thing the media likes to do after a school shooting “Aw, if only people had been nicer to him”. It’s dangerous and kinda insulting to everyone else with mental problems that don’t become murderers.
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2023, 9:04 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - i am not saying that. Neither is the film, I think. It's important to have nuanced opinions on such topics.

People don't live in a vacuum. I'm generally of the opinion that most monsters are created and not born. And if that's the case, how do we as a society bare some of that blame, and what are things we can do, especially in policy, to remedy such things. It's nature vs nurture. I lean on the later.

Imo, the biggest issue tackled in the film is how policies neglected someone like Arthur, who had he been still receiving the care he needed, he wouldn't have done the things he did. The film isn't saying people who are mentally ill are violent. It's just pushing things to the nth degree to make their point. Which is imo more about classism, neglectful and corrupt policy can do harm.

I'm not saying that people who are mentally ill are automatically murders and the film isn't saying that either. Neglectful policies cause harm, and it's harmful even more to keep ignoring that.
santoanderson
santoanderson - 10/8/2023, 9:45 PM
Joker is a movie I saw once, and mostly enjoyed, but I’m in no hurry to see it again. It’s just a dark, joyless, depressing movie. It’s the opposite of escapist entertainment. If I’m depressed, I’ll put on Star Wars, and it’ll make me forget my worries and lift my spirits. Joker actively bummed me out, and made me more anxious than I was before I saw it.
TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/8/2023, 10:10 PM
Yup, there was no "celebration" of violence in one of his best movies.
TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/8/2023, 10:13 PM
@TheOtherOn - Forgot to add that movie, ironically, also stared Joaquin Phoenix being a violence loving A'hole of a villain.
mastakilla39
mastakilla39 - 10/9/2023, 12:28 AM
@TheOtherOn - is it really a celebration of violence if Maximus was forced to fight in gladiator games vs arthur fleck who danced happily after murdering a show host? not sure if i agree with your statement.

Gladiator ends leaning towards peace while joker ends with arthur fleck still being a nutjob and apparently murdering his psychiatrist....I say Ridley Scott is right on this one.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 1:22 AM
@TheOtherOn - This scene was literally Maximus being disgusted at the acts of violence he was being forced into partaking in.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 4:50 AM
@mastakilla39 - I think you know that a movie that isn't about peace doesn't mean it's celebrating violence. Oppenheimer doesn't end with the nuclear bomb being erased from history, but that doesn't mean it's celebrating nuclear bombs. Alien ends with all Ripley's crewmates dead, but I'd bet you wouldn't argue that movie is celebrating their deaths by it not ending with them alive again.

Like I said before, I think Scott struggles here to see the difference between the actions and feelings of characters and the depiction of their actions the movie gives, which I'd say is disturbing.

Not having peace doesn't equal the movie celebrating violence.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 4:52 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - Ah, yes, we need a character we like to be disgusted at the bad acts. We can't see that the movie itself is depicting those acts as disturbing./sarcasm

Like I said before, I think Scott confused the character focus for the moral alignment.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 8:33 AM
@dagenspear - A character being disgusted is one of the ways a movie is depicting something, yeah. The culmination of Arthur Fleck’s journey is him embracing violence because he thinks it’s funny. It’s not There Will Be Blood man.
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 8:38 AM
@mastakilla39 -

Violence is still Violence. Regardless of the context in how it’s being presented.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 2:42 PM
@OmegaBlack13 - It doesn't have to be. And I think the music, the cinematography and the visual itself are a way a film can portray how disturbing it is. The main character is supposed to be being a villain, he can't be disgusted at it because that's not what his character is about.
TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/9/2023, 6:54 PM
@mastakilla39 - Maximus was forced but almost EVERYONE else, the "slavemaster" and the audience in the arena, were all rather enjoying and celebrating. Of course there's a "message" in there for viewers (us) but it's the same for Joker movie too.

You can't say, oh but in Gladiator the violence was meant to be a bad thing because Hero didn't like it. But violence in Joker is "portrayed" as good because the supposed "Hero" (and there's a message in that too if people really think Joker was a Hero) liked doing it.

The reality is, a LOT of people didn't really get the message in Joker.
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