Batman Beyond Nolan

Some of my thoughts on TDKR, with spoilers, by the way, and a few ideas on what ought to happen next.

Editorial Opinion
By Highways - Jul 29, 2012 12:07 AM EST
Filed Under: Fan Fic

First, I am a big fan of Batman Begins in it's entirety, and every single Joker scene in The Dark Knight. TDK, in my opinion suffered more and more each minute Heath Ledger was not on screen, and was nearly ruined by Two-Face. I suspect I am in the minority on that but that is how I feel.
Tonight I saw TDKR and perhaps I will be in the minority again when I say Chris Nolan stayed one movie too long. It isn't that I think it is a bad movie. I wouldn't go that far. It is a sloppy film that not only tries to do too much it also showed me Nolan's lack of thought in to Batman himself. Here is what I mean;
Bruce Wayne has trained his entire life to be a master hand-to-hand combatant, and a master strategist, (I intentionally leave out master detective because Nolan never showed any signs of hinting at that aspect of Batman), yet charges in to a fight against the much bigger, stronger, and healthier Bane having done no research on him other than asking Alfred who Bane was. Then he stands and exchanges blows with Bane like two brawlers in a tough man contest. Absolutely no League of Shadows technique or signs of any agility against an opponent that didn't feel pain. Heck, a master strategist having done a little digging would have brought some Narcan filled darts to cancel or lessen the benefits of Banes morphine/venom. I simply was not impressed with either fight between Batman and Bane.
I greatly feared Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle but she did okay with the material she had to work with. I don't think she will be remembered as a great Catwoman though, and shoudn't be. Her unnatural relationship with Bruce Wayne did indeed feel forced and the idea of the two running off together only feeds into Nolan's portrayal of a Bruce Wayne with absolutely horrible judgement. ESPECIALLY since Wayne's poor judgement in whom he could trust resulted in Gotham City being nearly destroyed and the country, and world living for several months under the threat of a rogue terrorist armed with a nuclear device. Naturally Nolan felt it made perfect sense to have Bruce Wayne apparently "fake" his death and run off with Selina right when Gotham City was faced with major rebuilding, it's police force in shambles, and thousands of violent criminals still roaming the streets.
The one thing that spoke loudest to me about Nolan's weaknesses as a Director was his approval of Talia's death which was as campy as any I have ever seen, even on old west cowboy shows. Those last few words, then the sudden head drop screamed BONANZA! to me. Not to mention the hypocrisy of Batman using missiles to basically kill her but refusing to fire a gun.
I liked Bane and thought his voice was great and easy to understand.
I decided while watching the movie by the end that it really is time for a new director to approach Batman. I don't know when that will happen or whom it will be but I hope he or she continues to build on what Nolan did right. Mainly the character of John Blake was great. He is the Detective Bruce Wayne is supposed to be, has an interesting relationship with Jim Gordon that can be explored further, has a genuine affinity for disadvantaged youth, and now that the Cave is located under an orphanage it is the perfect set-up for Blake as the new Batman mentoring a young sidekick.
I wholeheartedly support Jason Gordon Levitt as John Blake wearing the bat suit and I hope to see this explored in the next Batman movie by a director that can slow down just enough to explore the consequences of a characters actions. Meanwhile I plan on taking a break from Nolan.Tonight I saw his weaknesses and I have had enough for awhile.

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ollyollyolly
ollyollyolly - 7/29/2012, 2:31 AM
I think your unappreciative of the effort and time Nolan and his crew have spent building up this Batman mythos. Sure its not the exact interpretation from its source and takes many liberties with its characters motivations and decisions. At the end of the day however, can any one of use had said that we would have a Batman trilogy that is as damn good as any other well known (franchise)film.


The future of the Batman is completely open, but, if WB are smart about it and maintain the style of the Nolanverse then it could be expanded to include your orphan theory, penguin, riddler etc.

I think the man who leads the next adaption is highly important. I can only think of one who deserves it enough, Wally Pfister.
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 7:01 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with you - that is, until you got to John Blake being a good setup for another Batman.

Like BattlinMurdock said: it's closed. I'm almost ALMOST certain the character won't see another movie, and if he did, Joseph Gordon Levitt would probably add the stipulation that Christopher Nolan direct. It's a lose-lose scenario.

I think John Blake is going to sell all the stuff from the Batcave on ebay.

ollyollyolly,
After Batman Begins, Nolan's Batman became less a costumed superhero (or anti-hero), and more of crime-drama star. If you took away Bruce's billions, removed the semi-Bat-themed gadgetry and suits - you would see that his Batman could be ANYONE. He could be Daredevil, he could be the Punisher... he is just a vigilante who operates outside of the law.
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 8:33 AM
Going to add that a Gotham that is so clean it doesn't need even a vigilante resembling Batman to keep it safe.... is NOT Gotham City. Gotham is voted THE WORST URBAN CITY in comic books, as in people have to be INSANE to want to live there.
Jaywing
Jaywing - 7/29/2012, 9:45 AM
Don't know who Jason Gordon levitt is... Your editorial title is misleading... It should be titled, "me bitching about what Nolan did wrong (in my opinion)" you barely said anything about where you want Batman to go "beyond Nolan" and nothing of any substance.
gknox77
gknox77 - 7/29/2012, 10:27 AM
Didn't Bruce discover the Jewel thief to be Selina Kyle and tracked her down, with ease. That's called Detective work. Bruce planned to use the Bat all alone to carry the weapon out if the city, so he could move on with his life, and establish Batman as a Legend. That's called Strategy. He didn't bother to study Bane, because as Bane simply put Victory had Defeated Bruce. Lastly, Batman used a gun to kill Darksied, before he killed him. It's almost the identical scenario with Talia demise. It was an extreme situation in which both Batman dies. Nolan hits the character on the mark
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 11:44 AM
@gknox77
Batman trusted Selina after she stole from him and was handed over to Bane. That's called NAIVETY. Batman returns and somehow still trusts Selina to help him save Gotham. That's called BLIND FAITH.

Batman shot the truck carrying Talia with a rocket - that's called LETHAL FORCE. The resulting car crash killed Talia (and for all we know, Damien - neither confirmed or denied - and it doesn't help matters any that Marion Cotillard was pregnant during filming). That's called IRONY.

The Nolans and Goyer wrote the situation in there. Talia is NOT Darkseid in ANY capacity.

Bruce fakes his death and runs off with a career criminal to "move on with his life", leaving Gotham's streets flooded with all the criminals Bane broke out of prison, and a rookie cop/DT to take over. That's called LAZINESS.
gknox77
gknox77 - 7/29/2012, 12:10 PM
@Tainted... You don't read the Batman comics anymore do you? Bruces ultimately loves Selina. No matter her pass. And Trust Selina with his secrets. Their is a natural bond between them... Read the series where Hush cuts out Selina's heart. After the bomb explodes.. the U.S. Military moves in that was waiting on the bridges... Geesh... Aiding the police around up the reminding criminals... In addition to Gothams own Citizens. Again Batman uses lethal force to kill Darksied in Final Crisis... As for Damian, we all no about the Lazarus Pit... Right... Who says she just didn't fake her death at the end....
gknox77
gknox77 - 7/29/2012, 12:35 PM
The Batman story has been rebooted several times... However, once Bane gives away his Identity... Show remorse in her face her actions... And she seen saving and child's life... Bruce doesn't trust her to come back for him... He trust her to try escape the city using the batpod that will allow an exit for Gotham's citizens. When she blows the tunnels... But once she does come back... Blast Bane off the Map... Tries to stop the city from being Nuked... Hmmm why would you not trust her.... What movie were you guys watching....
Highways
Highways - 7/29/2012, 1:07 PM
"Who says she just didn't fake her death at the end...."

We, that would explain the terrible acting for that scene then,lol

I really don't consider dusting for fingerprints to be the best example of great detective work for a character as iconic as a detective as Batman but I will accept that as a correction to my statement Nolan did next to nothing regarding the detective side of Batman. Let's say that dusting for fingerprints was Nolan's nod to Batman being the world's greatest detective. It is really obvious that Nolan had no interest in that aspect of the character though. THAT is part of the Batman mythos I hope to see better explored beyond Nolan.
Some have said I offered nothing about moving beyond Nolan. Perhaps I could have gone further but the very directions I want to see explored I did mention. I like JGL as the new Batman, operating under the Wayne orphanage, where a particularly clever orphan discovers the Cave, perhaps steals some gear and begins to operate independently to try and solve, let us say, his own parents murders. JGL tries to steer the boy wonder away from crime fighting but ends up mentoring the kid, recognizing there is indeed a riddle worth solving in the deaths of the kids parents, and that the kid needs a true mentor, something John Blake already does to every kid he encounters anyways. Without the Wayne fortune, this Batman and Robin would have to rely far more on their investigative skills than high tech gadgets. The Riddler Conspiracy would strike deep into Gothams upper society, or whatever segment the director decided the Riddler obsessed over the most.
Meanwhile,the director would make sure to develop relationships, and explore consequences. Things Nolan failed to do. And, let us all hope the next director is a world class editor, another Nolan shortcoming, (one he hid well in Inception but shines through in TDKR).
I hope that clears up any confusion of what I think should happen next.
Highways
Highways - 7/29/2012, 1:20 PM
Also, I would like to see the relationship between Comm. Gordon and Blake explored. We saw in TDKR Gordon bristle at Blakes idealism-driven judgement of Gordon and Batman's cover-up and lies about Harvey Dent. That experienced, pragmatic, but jaded worldview versus Blakes unbending idealism with a young sidekick trying to find his own way between such views would make for compelling stories imo.
BTW, Jason Gordon Levitt is Jason Todd trying to take over Johnathon Gordon Levitts name on my keyboard, lol.
Highways
Highways - 7/29/2012, 1:21 PM
lol Battlin Murdoch. thats a funny script you inked btw
Highways
Highways - 7/29/2012, 1:31 PM
Crap...Joesph . What an unusual and rare name. No wonder I keep getting it wrong.
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 1:45 PM
@gknox77
To be honest, I stopped reading on a positive note, right AFTER Heart of Hush. It wasn't until Hush that Bruce even revealed his identity to Selina, and that was after knowing every aspect of her life, including her past. Even then, he didn't trust her completely. Hush is 2002, Selina has been in comics since 1940. You are making excuses. Really, Bruce had been in seclusion for 8 years (COMPLETELY UNCHARACTERISTIC OF BATMAN) and pretty much the first woman he's seen in years is Selina. I guess she went right to his pants.

@gasmasquerade
Actually, Bruce himself wasn't dusting for prints - Alfred asked him why he was doing that, and Bruce tells him that Selina was doing it.

It is how Selina gets Bruce's fingerprints. Bruce doesn't even dust for prints.
gknox77
gknox77 - 7/29/2012, 2:40 PM
Really @ Tainted...The Dark Knight returns... Bruce disappears for 10 years... Wow...
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 2:49 PM
Not in main continuity
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 7/29/2012, 2:52 PM
And there's a Kryptonian in his way, then.
gknox77
gknox77 - 7/29/2012, 2:57 PM
Right hint the Title The Dark Knight and not Batman... Gives the director freedoms to create his storyline and stlll include main characters of Batman's Gallery.
BatGirlzBoyToy
BatGirlzBoyToy - 7/29/2012, 8:11 PM
I loved batman from awaaaay back in the day and had 50/50 split exposure to him in comics and animated. These usually crappy superfriends (I'm 39) but watching him come to life with movement and voice more than made up for it.

I loved the first two films here, and thought they were distinct and different from each other and was duly impressed that someone had finally gone to these lengths for a superhero movie. This is not only rare but difficult for all sequels, trilogies, prequals et al.

Straight up, Ledger's joker is my favourite villain of all time, The artistry here is, like, 57 levels deep, and as you can tell by my age (above) I was the perfect age to worship Vader and Boba Fett when they were born. That I did so, with gusto, says a lot about Ledger. My God.... that tongue...

However I thought the latest, and last Nolan B.man movie was a failure. Frankly, it feels as though he had become bored of the main character...... by the end of Batman Begins. As the article above mentions we are given a shallow character short on growth and development. A new suit at the beginning of the middle film really doesn't count for much character dev., counts at all only because for super heros they are meant to be portrayals of their inner hero, worn on the sleeve.

TDK did suffer whenever Joker was not in a scene primarily because it left Bale to carry it. But he didn't, he never carried a singe scene, dramatically I mean, in all three films. Batman and Fox: We're watching Fox wondering what his life is like, what sacrfices he's made in his lifetime to be where hhe is. Batman and Alfred> We're looking at Alfred, thinking: what a class act. Here's a character who has been a servant perhaps his entire adult life and can project the bravery of a soldier, the wisdom of a counsellor and tell's Bruce he's been stupid enough to, if not start a bloody war himself, he sure played a rile in its spreading. Gordon and Batman, yer saying to yourself that this is an awesomely human chracterization of a potentially 2D character. He can keep a secret better than anybody in the city yet seems to inspire a greater effort than anyone else by Batman in protecting his secret ID. Why? Bale growls even more deeply around him, plays hide and... well, hide most often with Gordon, yet we are to believe that he has the Batman's respect and trust second only to Alfred? Mmmmm don'think so. Harvey Dent: maybe Dent is supposed to outshine him in most Bruce Wayne scenes anyway because he is the projected moral ideal until.... until batman really screws up by rolling the poor bastard into burning gasoline in a little move the League of Shadows likes to call, "stop, drop, and burn into freakish disfigurement hoping to trigger an inner clash that will erupt in murderous outrage and complete rejection of rule of law." Hell, batman's car, motorbike and his freakin' plane have tons more charisma and expose him as a dramatic fraud scene after scene. Katie Holmes and Bale: I know, right?! 'Nuff said.
Highways
Highways - 7/29/2012, 11:55 PM
Tonight I watched the Amazing Spider-Man. It is so superior to TDKR; words fail me. Thank you Mark Webb.
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