The Marvel Way?

The Marvel Way?

The great humor debate, plot twists, source butchery, and other Marvel gripes.

Editorial Opinion
By sikwon - Feb 02, 2014 10:02 PM EST
Filed Under: Other

No real introduction, i'm just going to jump right in with addressing a few complaints about Marvel movies even though I know it will have zero impact on my fellow fanboys. So......

1. Marvel has too much humor.
Spider-man, the Thing, the Human Torch, Dead Pool, Ice Man, Iron Man, Star Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Hawkeye.... these characters are all funny in the comics. Read any story arc in Marvel and there is always humor. With Spider-man its constant. With Wolverine its the occasional gallos humor type of joke. It doesn't matter who the character is. Tony Stark is a snide prick but hes funny. Even Thor is unintentionally funny. My point is that if you have ever read any amount of Marvel comics you know that its loaded with humor. Im going to give you the heads up now and save you all the trouble of wasting you're time and money... Guardians of the Galaxy is GOING TO BE FUNNY. How do I know this? Because I have read the comics, to include Annihilation and Thanos Rising and all of those. Star Lord is funny. So is Rocket. Hell Drax, Gamora and Groot all crack the occasional joke. Quill jokes with Ronan, Adam Warlock and even Thanos. Personally I would have liked less humor in IM3. Not because it took away from the experience, I just didn't like that stupid kid.

2. Marvel movies don't have serious themes and content.
Hmmm.... A. Incredible Hulk, a young woman is about to be gang raped in a factory when Bruce steps in to save her.
B. Iron Man arrives to stop an ethnic cleansing as parents are being separated from their children and the attackers use them as human shields. One of those is a woman holding her baby and a man has a machine gun to her head. Yup, child's play.
C. In Thor a son plots to kill his brother and his father.
D. Bruce Banner describes being so low and giving up on life to the point that he committed suicide. He didn't attempt it, he did it. The fact that he didnt die because the Hulk is indestructible in no way changes that he put a gun in his mouth and pulled the damned trigger.
E. Nazis. When are Nazis anything but adult oriented?

That's 5 adult situations from 5 different Marvel movies. If you look into each movie a bit deeper and don't get fooled by the brite pretty colors and flashing lights you see there's much more going on under the surface of the movies and the characters. Because the colors aren't toned down and muted and the director isn't telling us that its supposed to be dark and brooding doesn't mean that there isn't much more going on with these stories.

3. Agents of Shield sucks.
Ya well, its much better then it was when it started, its EXACTLY what they told us it would be and they are tying the whole 1st season together nicely. The characters and plots are maturing nicely and the show is moving in a good direction. Simply sit back, be patient and trust that they have a much bigger plan for this show and these characters.

4. The Mandarin twist.
Seriously, the Mandarin is a weak ass character. The fact that they managed to get people to care in the 1st place was damned impressive. I don't care if they bring him back in some form. Just like I didn't care if Killian or Trevor was the Mandarin, I enjoyed the twist and will probably enjoy what ever comes next. What I cared about was getting a decent bad guy and a good story. I hated Extremis Pepper.

5. Character bastardization.
Ok, I give Marvel all kinds of leeway here because if they want to change a character in the comics to fit what they are doing in the movies... they can! More then that though... Marvel may change some things but the spirit of the character is usually dead on, and that's what matters. Compare Cyclops in the X-movies to his comic counter part. Is there any resemblance at all? I mean hell WOLVERINE IS TALLER THEN HE IS! That seems like a small thing but its not. Being short is part of Logan's character just like always having to look UP to Cyclops when they speak plays a role in their relationship dynamic. Point being the Cyclops that Fox gave us doesn't resemble him physically but more then that, he doesn't resemble him in the spirit of the character. Marvel may change somethings but the essence of the characters make them recognizable to the comic versions. That's really whats its all about. Giving us a version of these characters that does their comic counterparts justice.

Look at what Marvel is doing as a whole.. cinema, tv, Netflix, all one universe (I know that's not confirmed with Netflix but its a safe bet) all coexisting. If you're biggest complaint is "they are too funny" or "they aren't adult oriented" then you haven't read a lot of the source comics and you really aren't paying attention to the content of the movies.

As a side bar my favorite CBM's are the Dark Knight, Spider-man 2, the Avengers, Conan the Barbarian (with Arnold), Sin City and Iron Man 1. Man of Steel and Batman Begins are right there though.

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Altair
Altair - 2/2/2014, 10:31 PM
Shit, this is a nice editorial. I really like seeing someone say everything objectively and defending any movie without just condemning the other company. Keep up the good work man.
gamecreatorjj
gamecreatorjj - 2/2/2014, 10:40 PM
Nazis weren't in captain america, thats one of my main gripes with the film, the fact that we don't see Red Skull with a red swastika on his arm is historically retarded. When people say serious themes and content, they mean over arching, not just saving a woman about to be raped, they mean things racial discrimination (X-Men), dangers of WMDs (Ironman), Urban Terrorism, Nhilism, the nature of man (The Dark Knight), destiny vs choice, acceptance and fear of oustiders (Man of Steel), child and spousal abuse (HULK).

Telling someone to be patient for a show to get good, isn't an excuse for it being bad. AoS failed to captivate audiences when it should have (at the beginning). If Walking Dead had started with the farm, people would be calling shit too.

IronMan has 1 good villain, they had been promising and teasing him since IronMan 1, they failed to deliver. They also butchered Killian and extremis. If they had stuck with the idea of 1 extremis soldier and left mandarin out of it, and given War Machine something to do, then I wouldn't hate it so much.

RDJ looks like Tony Stark but acted quite differently, not the spirit of the character. Mandarin wasn't the mandarin. Loki wasn't Mr. Suave in the comics. Black Widow was not a shield agent. Killian was not an evil mastermind. Leader is not Bruce Banner's partner friend. Malekith wasn't a two-dimensional no personality bad guy. Red Skull wasn't whatever that was supposed to be. Stane was not Tony's business partner. None of these characters fit the bill to the comics.

As for humor, out of literally every single character you named, literally 1 has featured in a Marvel Studios movie, and in the comics, he was never all the fut funny, pretty serious actually.

All of this being said, I like the Marvel Studios movies, they have their problems, I like em. They aren't the best Comic book movies, most of them lack real substance, which they make of for with their shared universe and accuracy. But for me, I think the first thing to look at about a CBM is if was good movie, and then you can start picking apart the accuracy and continuity and costumes and which character got how much screen time.
LastAvenger99
LastAvenger99 - 2/2/2014, 10:47 PM
@gamecreatorjj

I agree! Great comment. I like Marvel as well but idk apart from the Avengers and Iron man 1 I have yet to see something that just blows me away
gamecreatorjj
gamecreatorjj - 2/2/2014, 10:53 PM
@blacksuperhero That's exactly how I feel. They are mostly fun romps to see in the theaters, and have a good time, but nothing... game changing. I haven't seem them do a straight up period piece, or take a hero from kid friendly movies and put him in something with a bit more gore. I want to see that Marvel movie that really shows us what they can do, I'm hoping TWS will be that movie, though I thought the same thing about IM3.
Firgosaurus
Firgosaurus - 2/2/2014, 11:46 PM
At some point they are gonna bore everyone to death with their tried formula. Sometimes you have to do something unique creatively to get people interested to some degree.
Bekss
Bekss - 2/3/2014, 7:49 AM
The DC way?
Let's make 1 movie, let's see how it ends and then make 1 more, but with Batman, and see how it goes.

At least we have the Marvel way
Klone
Klone - 2/3/2014, 8:02 AM
Nazis in anything kid related? Bedknobs and Broomsticks lol.
fortycals
fortycals - 2/3/2014, 8:07 AM
Ha ha funny. Talks about the spirit of characters then jumps right to wolverines height. Smh.
cipher
cipher - 2/3/2014, 9:30 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again- there is nothing inherently wrong with humour. Nothing whatsoever.

Same goes for a darker tone.

I mean, more often than not, what happens a lot around here is just people arguing extremes, y'know? Everything's just GOTTA be aaaaaaaall the way on one side of the scale, or the other. It's always either "not serious enough/too funny/ What?? THERE'S A F*CKING JOKE IN THIS MOVIE?? GET IT AWAY!!, or "emo/ sooooooooooo f*cking depressing I just may slit my wrists/ this movie gave me PTSD". I think what deth said is true, sometimes these things could just be expressed better, or some guys just don't know how to break things down critically, and when that happens.. you get those extremes. So, yeah.. like I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with either tone.

It's just a matter of opinion and taste, that's all. Some don't like the humour.. that's cool. I don't mind the humour at all, though.
sikwon
sikwon - 2/3/2014, 9:30 AM
Thanks for the good and the bad. My reasons for listing the characters I did was to specifically show that humor runs through all marvel titles. And im pretty sure I covered the "britr shiny lights to distract" from any seriousness. They have a great balance between fun and serious. Why dont I write a DC/WB thing? Because I only read Batman. I love DC movies and annimation but I don't read the comics. And in wolverines height. Its an integral part of his character, the whole idea is hes forced to look uo to lesser men. That whole little guy syndrome.
cipher
cipher - 2/3/2014, 9:31 AM
Oh, and..



Trevor is my god.
Pedrito
Pedrito - 2/3/2014, 9:37 AM
The loudest arguments people have against Marvel are the humor and the supposed lack of adult themes.

Regarding the humor, that's just part of their formula for bringing families to the movies. Maybe the Netflix shows will deviate, since they cater to an older audience.

Regarding the lack of adult themes or "substance", I think people are confused by Marvel's approach of making movies that can be enjoyed by people of all ages. Even with a simple premise that kids can follow, if it's execute well, adults can enjoy it too.

The funny thing is that when people point to movies with substance, they're often just glorifying very simple ideas, just because of the way they are presented. A nihilistic/terrorist villain (TDK/TDKR) at the core is no different from the typical villain in kids cartoons. The difference is presentation, which does not constitute "substance".

I liked TDKR, but I didn't see very complex themes in it. And let's not even get into MOS. Sure there are themes, but calling them "adult" is a stretch.

In any case, don't spit in the sky, because MOS2/BvS might turn out to be very comedic and kid-friendly after all, like the recent JL cartoon movie.
Wallymelon
Wallymelon - 2/3/2014, 10:32 AM
You beat me. I wanted to write this article. I agree.
fortycals
fortycals - 2/3/2014, 10:33 AM
@sikwon
I actually agree that it's part of his character, what's debatable is the integral part. How many arc have ever dealt with wolvies height/personality relationship in any meaningful way. Most times it boils down to a insult or a nickname. By comparison how many countless arcs have been dedicated to let's say, his mysterious past, giving in to his animal instincts, or losing everybody he has ever loved. His height might be important to you personally, but it is trivial compared to what makes the character who he is. Its a visual complaint that can be a valid argument, but it gets blown out of proportion around here.

Then again this is what I always say about this debate. Once you get away from a100% panel for panel adaptation (which is impossible) who is really to say what's important to the character or not. Everybody has their own opinions and interpretation of what we like about these characters, so who's are worth more. Of course the creator comes first, but should not the owner have some input. Frankly us fans are always going to be on the bottom of that list, but as fans our place is to decide whether we like what the artist puts out there. I just choose to not to decide on a preconceived notion that anything different is bad, and that everything that came from a comic is perfect.
fortycals
fortycals - 2/3/2014, 10:52 AM
@cipher
right on man. Humor and comics go way back. Just the stereotypical make up of any team book, speaks to this. You got your brains, brawn, rebel, heart, and you guessed it comic relief. Now balance is always important, but that comes down to a matter of taste. As serious as the Batman character can be, they have to balance that out with criminals like the Joker, and the riddler.
cipher
cipher - 2/3/2014, 11:25 AM
forty- Yeah, man.. exactly.

Oh, and good post up there, by the way.

I agree about interpretation. Y'know, it's funny.. I remember reading something a while back where Claremont was talking about when he first got the Wolverine gig with Frank Miller, and Claremont had said that when he first approached Frank with the idea, Frank told him that he wasn't interested. I don't remember the exact words, but Miller said he wasn't too thrilled by the idea of working on such a one-note character, somethin' along those lines. Claremont told him that he wasn't interested in writing a one-note character at all, but that's why he wanted him.. because he planned to do something different with the character, something new. He said he saw him as more of a "samurai without a master", and, of course.. we all know what came of that.

That's how I've always viewed Wolvie- as a samurai without a master. That's what appeals to me about him more than anything else, that's what I feel is really important.. THAT'S the heart of the character to me. If Claremont hadn't had his own idea in mind, his own interpretation of that character, well..

It'd be a very different story. I mean, that's what keeps these things alive, y'know? The things WE take away from them. Interpretation.
fortycals
fortycals - 2/3/2014, 12:30 PM
@cipher
exactly.
Lhornbk
Lhornbk - 2/3/2014, 3:29 PM
Overall the article is decent, and many of the comments are typical fanboy whining. However, I am sick of hearing about how Wolverine should be short. Jackman is brilliant as Wolverine, it doesn't matter what height he is. And, quite frankly, having him be short in the comics is just stupid.
GuardianDevil
GuardianDevil - 2/3/2014, 4:10 PM
The thing about humor is not that we don't like humor in CBMs, it's that Marvel continuously does the same thing over and over. Since Iron Man 2 it's just been one fluffy comedy action film after another...Cap 2 seems to be the one to change things, but then again we all said the same stuff about Thor 2 and Iron Man 3. Marvel just needs to diversify...sooner or later the constant action comedies will get old.

My other problem is the villains, sure Loki is good, Stane and Abomination were OK. But the rest.....I don't know how to put it better than they just flat out suck. All of them (including Blonsky n Stane) are severely underdeveloped and with the exception of Loki, are uninteresting. Honestly to me it feels like Marvel has potential for great villains they just don't use it.

As for the adult themes, I'd say three of them bring up semi-adult and semi-interesting themes.

The Incredible Hulk (Jekyll/Hyde)
Iron Man (terrorism along with responsibility)
Iron Man 3 (media, and public opinion)



gamecreatorjj
gamecreatorjj - 2/3/2014, 5:05 PM
Like only 2 of these movies really deviate from the action comedy formula, Iron Man, although it's action comedy it started being a unique kind of superhero film. And The Incredible Hulk, in my opinion the only one that can rival ironman.

Iron Man's success is the worst thing that happened to marvel.
LastAvenger99
LastAvenger99 - 2/4/2014, 12:35 PM
All imma say is it seems whenever Marvel studios changes the source material or do something different its

yippie

Its it's any other studio its

Angry Amy
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