AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR Directors Explain Why Thanos Obtains SPOILER Off-Screen

@Vigor - thief* also

@Mercwitham0uth - Don't know if the MCU will want to have a character named Dick Rider as a headlining super hero though. I bet we get Sam Alexander but with the personality of Rich.

Sam wasn't that bad. It was a vocal minority of nut jobs that hate him. I personally liked Rich dying a heroes death and was fine with a new, inexperienced Nova like Rich was when he started. It would be good to get a Latino hero in the MCU also.

@DENNISsystem - done with Living Lightning has been awesome.

@Magus - I agree, smear campaigns based on race by d-bags and manchildren is one of the worst things plaguing the industry. However this “passing the mantle just to add to diversity” is the very definition of a rut. It’s become a comic cliché and the epitome of lazy writing. Every comic book publisher is guilty of it, but marvel has been the worst in recent years. I mean, look at what DC has been doing with Sideways and the Immortal Men. THAT is the way to do it! It’s a hell of a gamble to be sure, the characters could just be a straight flop. There are always exceptions, of course, it boils down to the writing. Jason Aaron’s Thor and Ms. Marvel, along with Miles Morales and Moon girl and Devil dinosaur. If you’re going to pursue a cliché, at LEAST make it a well written cliché. But for every great attempt like those above, you have your Totally Awesome Hulk, Ironheart and Sam Alexander Nova. So in readers minds (well, the non racist ones anyways) he’s guilty of two offenses: being a cliché and being boring.

@DENNISsystem - Mantles being passed just makes sense. The fact that they are being passed to minorities and women make sense when we are coming from an industry that only served fat 40 year old white men with white male characters.

Do you not want mantles passed down and to just read books about heroes who never age, change, or die?

Do mantles need to be passed down to people of the same sex and race as the original? Because if so, what is the point? What is different if a new rich white guy becomes Iron Man, or another buff blonde guy becomes Thor?

Im sorry, but this isn't a problem for anyone aside from those who want to keep their heroes white males.

Also, the argument for "Why don't they just make new characters for women and minorities?" is also stupid because they do all the time, but people don't buy them because comics are about brands and brand recognition.

@Magus - and THATS the problem right there! You just admitted that the story doesn’t matter as long as minorities are represented! That’s such bull! Because having a great story is how you CONNECT with characters! It’s how you get people to LOVE characters. A great story is how you make characters like Isaiah Bradley more than “the black captain America”. You just said that “if it’s another white guy as iron man, what’s the point.” And THAT is damn racist. Look at Black Panther, and Cyborg, and Apollo and Midnighter! Characters that, because of being well written, have become characters that everyone can love regardless if they’re black, straight or gay. And by being defined by their story and not by their race and sexual orientation, they become paragons, ambassadors to those very things. They subvert stereotypes and become things that can change outlooks and perspectives of prejudice. Sorry man, but while you’re heart may be in the right place for diversity, your message and methods are hurting the cause.

@DENNISsystem - When did I say anything like that?

I was saying Rich had a good story and all good stories have an end. Now that that end is bungled Rich is all out of good stories to tell. Have you seen what he is up to lately?

Iron Man stories have been told for 60 years as a rich white guy. My point is if you are passing the mantle why give it to someone who is the same as the last guy? The whole point of passing a mantle is for new story opportunities. There are no new story opportunities of all the white males are replaced with white males.

Obviously, telling great stories is implied.

I really disagree with your argument, as it is the same old argument everyone on your side has. I will just never understand being offended by a super hero passing a mantle to someone of another ethnicity or sex. What is the point? Why choose to be so against something so harmless?

Sure, it doesn't always work, like with Iron Heart, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing. I think it would be a bad thing if we just kept repeating the same old stories with the same or white guys over and over again with out any death or change. That is what destroyed the comic industry several times in the past. That is what is actually hurting the industry. The 40 year old white guys who are offended by change.

@DENNISsystem - I won’t deny that choices have been made in the past for the sake of diversity. Just for the record, Amadeus Cho did not just become the Hulk for the sake of diversity. He was his own character for most of Paks legendary Hulk/Herc run and fully earned the mantle over a decade of storytelling.

An easy way to look at both of our arguments and determine some validity is to look at potential. I would argue that by not writing off all ethnic/female characters who take up an established hero’s mantle opens up more opportunities to grow a franchises legacy by telling fresh, new, quality stories for new generations, not just the same middle aged white males that the industry is dependant on to a fault. New characters can still be made as minorities and females, but in the comic industry new characters don’t stick and chances are they will fail.

Your argument seems to be that it is cliche to replace long standing white heroes as minorities or females because it is cliche and you believe they should be happy with Black Panther and Luke Cage and have to make only new characters in a climate where new characters have little chance of succeeding. Things should just stay the same even if it prevents market growth and representation for children that aren’t white males.

I would say your argument is rather reductionist and inherently flawed. As you said, good stories are what count, and good stories can be made about a new generation taking up a mantle no matter what race or sex they are. You just have a personal bias against them.

@Magus - @Magus - some good arguments, but your arguments are based on a world where these characters age in real time. They don’t. Peter Parker is barely building a career, and the dude has been around since the ‘60s. Saying that characters should evolve and grow is fine, but there is validity for keeping them around. Half of the greatest stories from each Hero don’t happen within the same couple of years, and change doesn’t necessarily mean that a character had to go completely. Look at James Bond, look at Batman. And in terms of leagacy, you can be inspired by something and not take their place! Superman and Batman inspired Apollo and Midnighter, Deathsroke inspired Deadpool, Marvel 616 inspired the Ultimate universe. That’s the cool thing about these fictional characters, they can stay the same while growing. As I was saying, elseworlds, adaptations, light novels, media, manga. The same character can go through so much, be something different, and can STILL be the same. For example I love Dr. Pepper, sometimes I like Cherry Dr. pepper or Cherry Vanilla Dr. pepper, but at the end of the day I can STILL GO BACK to Dr. Pepper. You say my views are reductionist, I say that your views are too rigid and not big ENOUGH. It IS possible to have a new cap and an old Cap without getting rid of the old Cap. But at the end, my main focus is quality. Because if Dr. Pepper tasted like tar, I would stop drinking it. And it would fade away and people would hate it.! There ARE people who like the taste of tar (Sam Alexander). But there aren’t many. Mountain Dew is another example. I HATE regular Mountain Dew, but I love the spinoffs (especially Baja Blast). And I appreciate there are other flavors out there. But there is a difference to flavors you personally don’t like and then there’s drinks that are just awful. And just like those awful drinks, bad stories leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. These characters have lasted for years, had many stories but the reason they endure is that they’ve had mores GOOD than BAD. The mantle passing is an acceptable trope but a trope nonetheless. Let’s go back to my Soda metaphor. If 8 different soda brands released the same flavor, but 7 of them tasted like tar, it’s gonna sour some people even to the one that tasted good. Also, if they replaced your favorite soda that you’ve been drinking for years, even if the new flavor is awesome, you’re gonna miss it.