JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX Director Reveals Why Arthur Fleck Will NEVER Be Gotham's "Clown Prince Of Crime"

Joker: Folie À Deux director Todd Phillips has confirmed that the upcoming sequel won't feature Arthur Fleck's transformation into a villain resembling his comic book counterpart. We also have a new still!

By JoshWilding - Jul 26, 2024 09:07 AM EST

Filed Under: Joker

We never expected Joker to get a sequel, but if you're heading into Joker: Folie À Deux expecting to see Arthur Fleck transform into Gotham City's Clown Prince of Crime, you may be disappointed.

The iconic Batman villain has been portrayed vastly differently on screen over the years, whether it was Heath Ledger's domestic terrorist or Jared Leto's...well, whatever that was.

Talking to Empire about Arthur's continued evolution - he is, after all, about to meet "Lee" Quinzel - filmmaker Todd Phillips said, "We would never [make him the Clown Prince of Crime]. Because Arthur clearly is not a criminal mastermind. He was never that."

"Arthur has become this symbol to people," he adds. "This unwilling, unwitting symbol now paying for the crimes of the first film, but at the same time finding the only thing he ever wanted, which was love. That’s always what he’s been about, even though he’s been pushed and pulled in all these directions. So we tried to just make the most pure version of that."

In the same interview, Joaquin Phoenix talked about bringing music into Joker's world and confirmed the sequel's show tunes aren't necessarily going to be perfect renditions.

"It was important to protect that with poor phrasing and occasional bum notes," the actor explains. "Arthur grew up hearing his mother play these songs on the radio. He’s not a singer, and he shouldn’t sound like a professional singer. He should sound like somebody that’s taking a shower and just bursts out into song."

"Gaga was always very encouraging of just, 'Go with what you feel, it’s fine,'" Phoenix notes. "For somebody who’s not a performer in that way, it can be...uncomfortable to do that, but also very exciting."

You can see a new still from Joker: Folie À Deux below.

EXCLUSIVE 🤡#Joker won’t be Gotham’s Clown Prince Of Crime in Folie À Deux.

"Arthur clearly is not a criminal mastermind," Todd Phillips tells Empire. "He was never that."

READ MORE: https://t.co/u2xu3A2oUE pic.twitter.com/F0ncn1Qhnm
— Empire Magazine (@empiremagazine) July 26, 2024

Joker: Folie À Deux finds Arthur Fleck institutionalized at Arkham awaiting trial for his crimes as Joker. While struggling with his dual identity, Arthur not only stumbles upon true love, but also finds the music that's always been inside him.

The sequel stars Joaquin Phoenix once again in his Oscar-winning dual role as Arthur Fleck/Joker, opposite Oscar-winner Lady Gaga (A Star Is Born). The movie also features Oscar nominees Brendan Gleeson (The Banshees of Inisherin) and Catherine Keener (Get Out), alongside Zazie Beetz, reprising her role from Joker.

Phillips, who was nominated for Oscars for directing, writing and producing Joker, directed Joker: Folie À Deux from a screenplay by fellow Oscar nominee Scott Silver & Phillips, based on characters from DC. This follow-up was produced by Phillips, Oscar nominee Emma Tillinger Koskoff and Joseph Garner. Lady Gaga served as music consultant.

Joker: Folie À Deux arrives in theaters on October 4.

New JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX Stills Released; Star Joaquin Phoenix Reveals Why He Agreed To Return For Sequel

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41 Comments

1 2

McMurdo - 7/26/2024, 9:44 AM

So he's too dumb is what he's saying essentially

DeadClunge - 7/26/2024, 9:48 AM

Aaaannnndddd you lost me.

That last trailer just looked more of the same. I'm not sure if this movie will live up to the first.

tBHzHomer - 7/26/2024, 9:49 AM

Good. He shouldn't be. Bruce is only about 12 at the tike of this movie. By time he is old enough to become Batman, Atlrthur will be geriatric.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 10:40 AM

@tBHzHomer - If he was 12 five years ago, he's 17 now. He could be Batman in three years, so if they make a Joker 3, Joaquin will be geriatric?

I think there will be many spin-offs and sequels that Todd Phillips is considering, so he probably will make a Batman film, but with a Joker who is just this easily defeatable mental patient rather than the criminal mastermind from... well from every other version of Batman.

But then maybe his Batman will be different too.

Maybe Todd Phillips will say
"We would never make him a vigilante with training. Because Bruce clearly is not a competent fighter or detective. He was never that."

tBHzHomer - 7/26/2024, 11:15 AM

@ObserverIO - wasn't he 10 in Joker? Also, the narration of the trailer said it's been 2 years, not 5.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 11:33 AM

@tBHzHomer - Oh sorry you said 12, but you meant he's 12 now. That's my reading comprehension, lol. Yeah, so Joaquin would be pushing 60 I guess, by the time Bruce is Batman.

Either way any real Batman wouldn't struggle to take this Joker down at 60, 50 or 40. He's not very formidable, physically or mentally.

The further they push this as a franchise the worse it's gonna get. And they are going to push it further if this second one makes money.

AleSir19 - 7/26/2024, 11:47 AM

@ObserverIO - The huge issue that people dont seen to understand, and it is okay to not understand it. Is this isnt a comercial blockbuster superhero film. This are just indie films using the scope of a comercial character.

What this means? That this film isnt building some kind of world, where Batman is going to fight Joaquin Phoenix in film 3 or 4 or whatever.

This is just a small indie story, with a clear vision who is using the scope. To retell the lore of Batman in a different way.

I dont really care about Batman in these films, because this are not stories about Batman, this is a story about Arthur Fleck and his Joker persona, if Batman some day is add to these films if they get to do a 3rd wich i doubt a little bit.

Then i guess, we would see a really dark, really mess up, really scary Batman, like a demon, chasing Arthur, but never being the lead of the film, instead being some one who is chasing him, because again, this are films about the antagonist, not the hero.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 12:01 PM

@AleSir19 - That's certainly how they were selling the first one, but that doesn't quite work when you now want us to buy a sequel and a musical one at that, just because the first movie made over a billion at the box office.

It is now a commercial blockbuster franchise. The more movies they make in this world, the clearer that will become unfortunately.

newhire13 - 7/26/2024, 12:07 PM

@ObserverIO - It’s an Elseworlds movie though so the logistics of Batman doesn’t matter because that’s not the story they’re telling

TheVisionary25 - 7/26/2024, 12:14 PM

@newhire13 - every comic book movie or show is a different universe and is Elseworlds tbh.

I just find it weird when people say that to either defend or disparage these films because it applies to pretty much every comic book piece of media out

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 12:18 PM

@newhire13 - yet.

AleSir19 - 7/26/2024, 12:24 PM

@ObserverIO - Again, yes you could say it is a blockbuster.

But was Oppenheimer a Blockbuster?

The thing we dont seen to understand, is the concept of Blockbuster is not attach to the money the movie made is attach to the concept of the film.

A Blockbuster is a spetacle film, a huge popcorn stuff. That idea that only a huge spectacle popcorn film can make money is a really stupid one, one created by people that dont seen to understand or know cinema history.

My point is this is films are made with a more small and clear concept, using a huge comercial character and his world, and this small film, in the third act goes to shit. But the fact the first movie made a lot, not was because of the spectacle, was because it was an intimate, small, indie story about a huge comercial character.

In this film it will happen the same, all over again, this will be a small indie film, with musical set pieces, and at the end everything goes to shit, Lee puts a bomb in the trial, in a climatic moment everything explodes and goes to shit, half of the face of Harvey Dent is burn and desfigurated.

And Arthur escapes.

Simple.

But i dont care, about Bruce or Batman, because this are not Batman films, never have been. Is like the stupid people that still believe Nolan Batman films, were DC Films, Nolan Batman films, were Nolan films, not DC Films. The same happens here.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 12:38 PM

@AleSir19 - Nolan films were Batman films and Nolan films. You could say that about a lot of auteurs. Blade II was a Marvel film and a Guillermo Del Toro film. Batman and Batman Returns were Tim Burton films and DC film. X-Men was Marvel film but it was also a Bryan Singer film. Guardians of the Galaxy was a Marvel film but it was also a James Gunn film, etc.

Joker is a DC film, but is it really a Todd Phillips film? His stuff is usually modestly funny titty comedies. Joker felt like a pretentious and disingenuous movie that was attempting to be in the style of a Martin Scorsese film.

YouFlopped - 7/26/2024, 9:49 AM

perfect character analysis and interpretation ✍🏾🔥

Reeds2Much - 7/26/2024, 9:52 AM

I always wanted to know what happens to Travis Bickle after his coma.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 10:43 AM

@Reeds2Much - I always wanted a musical sequel to Taxi Driver.

BlackStar25 - 7/26/2024, 9:54 AM

GREAT! He isn't supposed to be...We have already known this for years. If you thought otherwise...you were incredibly naive.

TheVisionary25 - 7/26/2024, 10:02 AM

It makes sense and I’m glad they realize it…

This version of “Joker” isn’t a criminal mastermind but just a sad disturbed , lonely little man looking for love so him becoming that doesn’t fit the story they are telling.

The comics according to Phillips have always been a loose basis for these films and moreso used to sell the film to a wider audience because if that wasn’t the case , the first film would have had a more niche appeal.

Anyway , the movie seems decent imo and better then the first one (which I didn’t care much for) so I’ll check it out but unsure if it will be in theaters or not yet.

supermanrex - 7/26/2024, 10:04 AM

this is another universe people. the whole point of another universe take is to be different than the original. in comics yeah that difference can be subtle and still people eat it up. but film you gotta go out of the box to justify its existence otherwise you just making the same shit as before. so i dont expect him to become OG joker nor do i expect batman to even factor in at all. if batman eventually exist in this world im sure it will be a completely new take than original.

EpicMan - 7/26/2024, 10:08 AM

I have been saying it since before the first one.... This shit is such a sham.... They made a movie about mental health and gun control/violence. They added a a little Joker/Gotham connection to tap into an existing Batman comic book fan base. Its so [frick]ing wrong, and disingenuous. This is just a movie about a man with mental health issues. That is all.

harryba11zack - 7/26/2024, 10:13 AM

HashTagSwagg - 7/26/2024, 10:16 AM

Not liking the idea having another love sick puppy joker.

bobevanz - 7/26/2024, 10:23 AM

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, yet people will find a way to complain

McMurdo - 7/26/2024, 10:23 AM

We really need Gunn to knock DCU Joker out of the park. Like peak, Mark Hamill esque Joker. A real evil conniving bastard. And ahead of the curve. Closer to Ledger Joker but with more theatrics. And madness.

UniqNo - 7/26/2024, 10:26 AM

So basically Joker but not Joker.

Drace24 - 7/26/2024, 10:32 AM

Then what's the [frick]ing point? If he is not the Joker, just make him not the Joker. Tell an original story not connected to pre-existing IP and create something new that was merely inspired by the Joker. I'm so tired of getting movie-catfished!

TCronson - 7/26/2024, 10:46 AM

@Drace24 - you won't pay to see anything without pre-existing IP, that's why they use them in the first place, general audience is dumb.

Drace24 - 7/26/2024, 11:00 AM

@TCronson - Yes, I will. I would have definitely liked Joker more if weren't supposed to be connected to the Batman mythology. I would also definitely be way more hyped for Disney's upcoming Moana remake, if it were a polynesian adventure inspired by Moana but not literally Moana again. Could list countless more examples. Of course IP sells, but to say that people won't be interested in anything but IP is a tired trueism that needs to die. General audience aren't dumb, they have just caught on that studios don't have faith in original works so why should they?

TCronson - 7/26/2024, 11:13 AM

@Drace24 - pure nonsense, you can't back it up with any real examples, people are not interested in paying for big budget non-IP stuff anymore unless it's made by Nolan. Hollywood still makes lower budget original movies, some of them succeed, but not nearly enough to justify greenlighting 100+ mln original work. General audience IS dumb, they always complain about IP, but that's the only thing they usually watch, corporate cameo fest like Deadpool & Wolverine, but when original movie with decent budget and good reviews comes out, it's suddenly "I'll wait for streaming".

Drace24 - 7/26/2024, 11:56 AM

@TCronson - First of all, I did just back it up with real examples of what I want to see and not. And you just said it yourself: "Hollywood still makes lower budget original movies" There you go. The overwhelming part of film studios resources wander into IP. And not just money but also talent. Why does Disney keep contracting Lin Manuel Miranda for their shitty live-action remakes and not their animated movies anymore that used to be their bread and butter. That's like letting Alan Menken make the music for their Disney Channel sitcoms.

Original works are often not even advertised anymore. "Norm of the North 3" got more advertising and a wider release than "When Marnie Was There", a [frick]ing Ghibli movie! How are audiences supposed to put it over the edge? Most people didn't even realize that Dreamworks has released an entire original animated movie named "Ruby Gillman, Teenage Kraken" because all the advertising money went into the deeply unneccesary "Kung Fu Panda 4" instead, while "Orion And The Dark" was thrown straight to Netflix and I swear, they didn't even bother writing a real end to that movie.

Like you said audiences often say "I'll wait for streaming", yeah but who trained them to do that? Maybe don't throw the movie onto streaming after just a couple of weeks if you want it to do well in theatres and expect the audience to have faith in the project in the first. Of course people will get used to that.
Hollywood lets original projects fail. The consumer behavior is just a logical reaction to what studios present them with. That people still flock to Nolan is not because large group of people is just so enchanted with Nolan's approach to filmmaking - they are absolutely not - but because studios trust in his films so they are given what they need to succeed.

ObserverIO - 7/26/2024, 10:49 AM

"[Love is] always what he’s been about, even though he’s been pushed and pulled in all these directions."

lol, sure Todd.

HermanM - 7/26/2024, 10:50 AM

Not the real Joker, not the real Batman and.....not even a real singer, apparently. Lol

Zero interest in this. Hope it bombs.

TCronson - 7/26/2024, 11:14 AM

@HermanM - hope it makes 2 bln.

BillyBatson1000 - 7/26/2024, 10:57 AM

There are multiple Joker fans running around in this ...

Is it too much to expect that ONE of them goes on to be THE Joker in the finalé?

Sequel: "Joker: Folly A Derp?"

FireandBlood - 7/26/2024, 10:57 AM

It’s almost as if they made it clear from the beginning that this isn’t the type of Joker that’s going to be fighting superheroes in tights.

LysergicMeinbal - 7/26/2024, 11:23 AM

Then why call him Joker? Why not call him Steve the clown or some other nonsense. If he's not the joker then who cares.

newhire13 - 7/26/2024, 12:19 PM

@LysergicMeinbal - I just don’t understand the animosity lol. They do “What If”stories in comics all the time. This is just a “What If “ story. Like you act like this will be the last movie to ever feature a version of The Joker ever lol. They aren’t trying to make this the face of DC movies or the backbone of a whole cinematic universe so it should be ok to experiment with these characters in side stories that, going by the first movie, clearly interest a lot of people. Hell, I don’t even think a sequel is necessary either but I’m not gonna lose sleep over it lol.

hainesy - 7/26/2024, 11:48 AM

I hope Gunn makes the DCU Joker much closer to Jack Nicholson, but with the personality of Hammil's BTAS version. Some unnamed guy who falls into a vat and has white skin and green hair as a result. We can all suspend disbelief in a universe with a flying alien in a red cape. He's a schemer, but can't help but make jokes and laugh. Ledger was amazing, but that version has been done. Arthur Fleck was relatable and had a great backstory. But we just need n established Joker (no origin story) who is a threat to Batman because he's so unpredictable.

Lucasberg - 7/26/2024, 1:32 PM

My biggest complaint about the first Joker was that he seems much more schizo than what a real life translation of a Joker type villain would need to be in our world. A manic joker is the right kind of Joker. A schizo Joker whose battling hallucinations, delusions etc. would never be the clown prince of crime because he'd be too busy trying not to have a nervous breakdown or dealing with a total detachment from the world lol.

A manic Joker on the other hand could effortlessly commit crime and mayhem and the underworld could easily follow his maniacal schemes. Nolan had the correct idea in The Dark Knight.

This vision of the Joker fundamentally does not work, regardless of how cool it is to see him dance down the stairs.

UltimaRex - 7/26/2024, 1:48 PM

I love how everyone ate up 10 years of smallvile and is complaining about this.

That's hoot no.1.

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JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX Director Reveals Why Arthur Fleck Will NEVER Be Gotham's "Clown Prince Of Crime"

Joker: Folie À Deux director Todd Phillips has confirmed that the upcoming sequel won't feature Arthur Fleck's transformation into a villain resembling his comic book counterpart. We also have a new still!

New JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX Stills Released; Star Joaquin Phoenix Reveals Why He Agreed To Return For Sequel

JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX Empire Covers Reveal A Twisted New Look At Arthur Fleck And Harley Quinn