JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX To Lose #1 Spot This Weekend; Todd Phillips Claims Sequel Doesn't Call Out Toxic Fans

JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX To Lose #1 Spot This Weekend; Todd Phillips Claims Sequel Doesn't Call Out Toxic Fans

Joker: Folie à Deux's tragic box office run looks set to get even worse this weekend as Terrifier 3 looks set to steal the #1 spot. Todd Phillips, meanwhile, has denied he set out to tackle toxic fans.

By JoshWilding - Oct 09, 2024 01:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Joker

Deadline brings word that Joker: Folie à Deux looks set to lose the #1 spot at the North American box office this weekend to Terrifier 3

Following the Joker sequel's disastrous $37.6 million opening and hauls of $1.8 million on Monday and $2.6 million on Tuesday (tickets are offered at a discounted rate that day), it's likely the second weekend will face a -70% decline. 

That's around the $11.2 million mark, and with Terrifier 3 currently eyeing an $11 million debut, that makes it sound like Joker: Folie à Deux will just manage to remain on top. However, the trade believes the movie is following a similar path to The Marvels and its dip will be closer to -80%, meaning a second weekend of $8 million or less. 

One of the main reasons Joker: Folie à Deux has been rejected by fans is because it feels like filmmaker Todd Phillips set out to attack fans who idolised Arthur Fleck after watching Joker

Asked about that by IGN before the sequel's release, he denied tackling toxic fans was ever the goal with Joker: Folie à Deux.

"[One] of the things that we always thought about the first movie or one of the things I definitely said enough in defending the first movie when it needed to be defended because people said it's irresponsible, its use of violence. And I always saw it quite literally the opposite. I thought it was responsible because it was showing the actual real-world effects of violence. It wasn't glamorizing gun use in my mind. It was actually showing, 'Oh my God, this is brutal.' And I think the reality of it maybe is what turned people off, the people that were turned off."

"[It] was never about addressing toxic fandom, but it was about addressing this idea of what happens if this thing gets put upon you, like we were saying, just five minutes ago, but it's not actually what you are. And then, what happens in the worst case scenario, if you finally find love in your life or you think you do, but that person is in love with the character that you represent, not the person that you are."

Whatever the case may be, a big issue with the movie is that its message feels muddled and contradictory to what happened in Joker. Regardless of whether Phillips did want to hit back at fans or critics or truly felt this was the natural next step for Fleck, it didn't work. 

In our review of the movie, we concluded by saying, "Lady Gaga shines and Joaquin Phoenix brings more of the same to Joker: Folie à Deux, a wholly unnecessary sequel with no new ideas and nothing to say. It doesn’t work as a movie or a musical. What a waste of $200 million."

Joker: Folie À Deux is now playing in theaters. 

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TheLobster
TheLobster - 10/9/2024, 1:07 PM
Hahahaha
harryba11zack
harryba11zack - 10/9/2024, 1:07 PM
Justice and dessert

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HammerLegFoot
HammerLegFoot - 10/9/2024, 1:17 PM
@harryba11zack - I like how there's always a Penguin in these
DrDReturns
DrDReturns - 10/10/2024, 12:48 AM
@harryba11zack - Keep these coming!
FireandBlood
FireandBlood - 10/9/2024, 1:10 PM
Haha, the studio called him and threatened his entire livelihood, so now he’s on damage control.
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 1:32 PM
@FireandBlood - he made these comments before the movie released, but also in the same article, which for whatever reason was cherry picked, he agreed that narrative is there and then immediately tries to say it isn't. Dude doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

"IGN: I'm just thinking: the idea of, look, the fans want Joker. They can't necessarily deal with Arthur. And I'm wondering, he's got fans that show up cosplaying as him, and they're basically like, "Give us Joker, give us the Clown Prince of Crime."

Phillips: That's right.

IGN: It reminds me of the fans. Like, "Give us Batman, give us the Clown Prince," all that sort of thing.

Phillips: I guess you're right.

IGN: And you guys are pushing back like, "No, no, I'm just Arthur."

Phillips: That's right. That is in the movie. But it was never about addressing toxic fandom, but it was about addressing this idea of what happens if this thing gets put upon you, like we were saying, just five minutes ago, but it's not actually what you are. And then, what happens in the worst case scenario, if you finally find love in your life or you think you do, but that person is in love with the character that you represent, not the person that you are."
Humperdink
Humperdink - 10/9/2024, 1:55 PM
@SATW42 -

The movie should have just been call "Arthur" or something else from the start, then.

You can't use an iconic DC character, dress him up like that character, title the film after then say actually it's not about that character then play semantics as the second film burns.

It seems disingenuous and manipulative. Using comic fandom as a superficial shell.

SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 2:05 PM
@Humperdink - I honestly don't mind that its considered this take on the Joker that's ultimately about the birth of the idea of the Joker as opposed to actually being the Joker.

Phillips just did it sloppily
HammerLegFoot
HammerLegFoot - 10/9/2024, 1:15 PM
Aaron Pierce is official our John Stewart!
FireandBlood
FireandBlood - 10/9/2024, 1:18 PM
@HammerLegFoot - The right choice 👏
HammerLegFoot
HammerLegFoot - 10/9/2024, 1:19 PM
@HammerLegFoot - Aaron Pierre you dummy!
HammerLegFoot
HammerLegFoot - 10/9/2024, 1:19 PM
@FireandBlood - Hell freak yea, bro's got the look and sound. Cant wait to see his evolution from rookie to vet!
harryba11zack
harryba11zack - 10/9/2024, 1:24 PM
@HammerLegFoot - .....Aaron Pierce?
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I beieve u
MCUKnight11
MCUKnight11 - 10/9/2024, 1:19 PM
Why do these companies hire people who don't even like the material they are adapting? I thought the lesson was learned with Bryan singer years ago.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/9/2024, 1:46 PM
@MCUKnight11 - in this case…

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Phillips himself has admitted pretty much that he wanted to make a Taxi Driver/King of Comedy-esque film with the first one but it wouldn’t sell to a mass audience in this day & age if it wasn’t an established IP hence him deciding to use the DC & Joker brand name so that isn’t news.

Ultimately Phillips with the first one got to more or less make the movie he wanted to make while WB/DC thought it was an easy way to make money


DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/9/2024, 1:19 PM
"[It] was never about addressing toxic fandom, but [...]"

Any and all respect he may have earned, boom. Crumbled, ruins, shambles.

Ashes to asses.
Dust to f#ck.
Thought you an artist
Turns out you're a cuck.
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 1:34 PM
@DrReedRichards - read the whole article. Or what I said to fire and blood above. The reporter walks him into that it's exactly what the movie is tackling and he essentially says "I guess, but..."

Not disagreeing with you, just saying he's seemingly saying in this article that the commentary people are reading is there, he just didn't do it on purpose, apparently.

It's crazy.
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2024, 1:34 PM
@DrReedRichards - I don't think he was ever writing about "toxic fans", he's writing about people who are fans of something that is toxic.

I don't like defending this movie a lot because it's poorly executed. This film is basically the first in thematic reverse. First was about a man in a cold world who wanted to feel any warmth, to get attention. This one is about the man whose felt that warm and attention but still feels the world is cold by the end.
DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/9/2024, 1:39 PM
@SATW42 -


I agree with that last assessment of yours, that he presents it as somehow accidental, or involuntary of you will, but that still comes across as a form of half-assed backtracking, as if he's afraid or at the very least reluctant to own up to this message.
DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/9/2024, 1:44 PM
@EgoEgor -

That thematic interpretation, while not wrong, is putting it very politely. Too politely perhaps. Certainly more politely than the aforementioned target audience warrants.

My own interpretation remains that of blatant audience disowning. Not only in regards to the first movie's self proclaimed anarchists but Al's (and I'm not seeing tho discussed nearly enough) the depiction of my Harley Quinn herself but rather a Quinn-wannabe who is actually way more privileged than her forced and fake lunacy would ever allow her to admit.

Hell, this site alone has suffered one particular user who fits this deliberate caricature, I'm legit shocked noone else has made he connection between Lee and Ruthless, or whatever her latest username is.
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 1:46 PM
@DrReedRichards - I don't know, I think he's just kind of an idiot who makes movies based on style over substance and then accidentally makes shit and isn't responsible enough to tackle the things he wants to tackle.

I've been saying this since "The Joker" when the movie went from gritty character piece to "heeeere' joker!" and he uses a god damned gary glitter song. He has ZERO cultural awareness and therefore is an irresponsible film maker when it comes to serious topics.
RolandD
RolandD - 10/9/2024, 2:08 PM
@DrReedRichards - Ruthless. Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time. Is she still around?
DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/9/2024, 2:15 PM
@RolandD -

I'm assuming so, though I've no idea if she still goes by @Quinn, which I remember to be her latest moniker.
TCronson
TCronson - 10/9/2024, 2:53 PM
@SATW42 - there's no way to make a "responsible" Joker movie people would enjoy. He just made one and they absolutely hated it. He's obviously lying when he pretends the movie is not massive middle finger to toxic fandoms. But there's no way to make a Joker movie that won't be misread the wrong way because it's what the character is or any other movie about serial killer with dangerous ideology as the protagonist.
ObserverIO
ObserverIO - 10/9/2024, 3:31 PM
@TCronson - You could... oh I don't know.... make them the villain.
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 4:30 PM
@TCronson - You don't see the difference in Heath Ledgers joker being emphatically proven wrong and stopped by Batman, and Arthur Fleck successfully killing a man on live tv, becoming a symbol, causing riots and being praised in the streets?
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2024, 5:12 PM
@DrReedRichards - I get that interpretation, and there is some of that there, but I think Todd was exploring society being into toxic things rather than people who behave topically. More in line with women who fall for serial killers but are attracted to the toxic idea of the person(be it power, or what not) rather than the person themselves. Even media takes part in it, which is really what that movie represents, hell we got a show about Dahmer that felt like it glorified it.

I think in our circles, the parallels between toxic Fandom are there but I don't think it's something in Todd's world, i dont think thats what he set out to critque... though, ironically it might be now.

Toxic Fandom and fans of toxicity have a venn diagram commonality, toxicity itself. Which is the core of this film, particularly with Joker and how Joker is used as martyr for toxic causes by toxic people.
TCronson
TCronson - 10/9/2024, 6:10 PM
@SATW42 - no because Heath Ledger's Joker was still fetishized to death and adored by incelish crowd because he was shown as someone really cool and powerful. Arthur became a symbol and praised in the streets, but he was still caught and sent to prison, it's not like he got away with it.
TCronson
TCronson - 10/9/2024, 6:14 PM
@ObserverIO - it doesn't matter, if villain is shown as someone powerful, smart and visually cool looking wrong people will still see him the wrong way. That's why Ledger was still adored by that crowd despite losing at the end.
DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/10/2024, 6:58 AM
@EgoEgor -

I strongly agree with your last point, about toxic fans and fans of toxicity being different while sharing a common point, but I don't think our circles are as out of reach for Todd Philips as your second paragraph makes it sound. Had we been talking about one of the more geriatric figures, like Scorcese or Coppola, I could very much see that being the case. But for Philips, I believe he does pay attention to what the latest talk is in mainstream "lower" circles like ours, not just listening to his elite colleagues.
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/10/2024, 12:25 PM
@DrReedRichards - to me, it's kind of irrelevant what the artist intended to do, if that's something that's there, and it's your interpretation, then who cares what Phillips intended. Sometimes art is accidental and unintended, and having multiple interpretations is more than valid, even if unintended.
Quinn
Quinn - 10/14/2024, 3:57 AM
Rent free

DC is still better than Marvel Studios. Cope.
DrReedRichards
DrReedRichards - 10/14/2024, 9:20 PM
@Quinn -

Remind me what the highest grossing franchise of all time is?
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2024, 1:28 PM
I guess I'm in a minority who doesn't think this movie was calling out fans of the first film. The character is idolized for or against a cause he doesn't have, agree with or want.

I think we're so used to meta commentary in films today that we put it in even when it's not there.
ThorArms
ThorArms - 10/9/2024, 1:30 PM
Terrifier 3 beating it would be an absolute disaster for WB (not that it isn't a pretty big one already)
ObserverIO
ObserverIO - 10/9/2024, 1:32 PM
It had the whole weekend to itself, got the number one spot and still couldn't perform. That's what I call a flop.
TheNewYorker
TheNewYorker - 10/9/2024, 1:33 PM
I hope Todd never works in this town again! LOL
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 1:38 PM
In the same article Phoenix also admits that it is of course there, it just wasn't the intent.

"Phoenix: I don't know about that. I really think there's probably several themes. I think each person can derive a different kind of meaning from them, and I think that's the value of it. I don't like it when people, the filmmakers, or the actors really primarily, are like, "This is the point we're trying to make. Pay attention. We're talking about you." That's not how I approached it, but I certainly think that's part of it. I don't know how you examine celebrity without thinking about that."

It just reinforces what I was always concerned with the first one, Phillips was more worried about "cool" than about the fact that he was turning a killer into icon and then trying to say "no I wasn't" He doesn't have the capacity to realize how his work can be perceived.

Phoenix is just as delusional, but at least isn't ignorant (or purposefully trying to gaslight) and tells you that reading is actually there
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/9/2024, 1:53 PM
@SATW42 - I personally do think the violence in the first one wasn’t glorified when it happened but meant to be shocking and disturbing

However , it can also get a bit muddy when you also have your lead being presented like this…

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I can see how a certain section might think that’s cool.
SATW42
SATW42 - 10/9/2024, 2:02 PM
@TheVisionary25 - "I personally do think the violence in the first one wasn’t glorified when it happened but meant to be shocking and disturbing"

His entire final speech on the Arthur Murray show is an anti-establishment message that literally ends with the idea that Murray and the city were getting what they deserved with the riots and being murdered.

At no point during his interview, even with Murray's interjections, does it seem like Phillips thinks Arthur is wrong.
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