Ridley Scott Didn't Like The Way JOKER "Celebrated Violence" But Was Blown Away By Joaquin Phoenix

Ridley Scott Didn't Like The Way JOKER "Celebrated Violence" But Was Blown Away By Joaquin Phoenix

Napoleon director has spoken about casting Joaquin Phoenix in the title role, praising the actor's performance in Joker. However, he also criticized how the movie "celebrated violence."

By MarkCassidy - Oct 08, 2023 09:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Joker

Despite high praise for Hildur Guðnadóttir's haunting score and Joaquin Phoenix's Academy Award-winning lead performance as Arthur Fleck, Todd Phillips' Joker was far from universally loved (it sits at 69% on Rotten Tomatoes), and a lot of the criticism stemmed from a perception that the movie somehow glorified Fleck's violent actions.

This is obviously up for debate (many would argue that it does the exact opposite), but this was Ridley Scott's issue with the film, which he explained while speaking about casting Phoenix as Napoleon in his upcoming biopic while on stage at Deadline’s Contenders London event over the weekend.

Despite his aversion to Joker's supposed "celebration" of violence, Phoenix's stunning work as the iconic Batman villain convinced Scott to cast him in Napoleon.

“I was blown away by his outrageous film Joker. I didn’t like the way it celebrated violence, but Joaquin was remarkable. I thought he’d be an amazing asset to Napoleon, [not only creatively] also in a commercial sense. There were only two actors I had in mind for the role. I won’t mention the other one.”

Again, some would take a very different view of Joker and its admittedly shocking depictions of violence.

Scott went on to reveal that he filmed Napoleon in just 62 days.

“Normally a film like this would be shot in around 110. I discovered years ago that eight cameras are eight times faster. Every department has to be able to keep up with my speed. Actors don’t want to hear the story of life before each take. I discovered that early on. A well-known Welsh actor once told me, ‘I love what you do because you move so quickly.’ You’ve got to know the geometry of the scene. If you don’t, it’ll be 3 p.m. before your first shot gets rolling.”

What do you make of Scott's comments? Would you agree that Joker celebrated violence? Be sure to share your thoughts in the usual place.

Forever alone in a crowd, failed comedian Arthur Fleck seeks connection as he walks the streets of Gotham City. Arthur wears two masks -- the one he paints for his day job as a clown, and the guise he projects in a futile attempt to feel like he's part of the world around him. Isolated, bullied and disregarded by society, Fleck begins a slow descent into madness as he transforms into the criminal mastermind known as the Joker.

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bobevanz
bobevanz - 10/8/2023, 9:41 PM
It doesn't celebrate violence, dude missed the whole point. Anyway I'm sure Napoleon won't celebrate violence lmao
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/8/2023, 9:44 PM
Who the hell celebrated the violence in that film???
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/8/2023, 11:45 PM
@MahN166A - Technically the character of Joker did.
MosquitoFarmer
MosquitoFarmer - 10/9/2023, 1:06 AM
@MahN166A - Did you see the riots throughout the movie, especially at the end?
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 1:21 AM
@MosquitoFarmer - That’s one of my issues with the movie. It gestures at having an “eat the rich” message, which, okay fine. But if this revolt against rich people was spearheaded by an incel who actually just wanted to hurt people then what does that say about the classist themes the movie claims it wants to explore?
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2023, 6:42 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - he is not an incel. He is mentally ill. But since incels are the buzz word of our day it's pegged into the film. If Arthur had still received his meds he wouldn't have done the things he did. It's a movie about classism and the dangers of corrupt and neglect policies rather than anger virgins on the internet.
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 6:50 AM
@dagenspear -

Talking about outside the realm of the movie. Under the context of the interview, I feel like that is who he is referring to
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 6:51 AM
@MosquitoFarmer -
I don’t think he is referring to characters in the movie. I feel like he is talking about actual people who watched the film.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 8:40 AM
@EgoEgor - There are other people that the system failed, they didn’t kill people on live TV. You’re doing that thing the media likes to do after a school shooting “Aw, if only people had been nicer to him”. It’s dangerous and kinda insulting to everyone else with mental problems that don’t become murderers.
EgoEgor
EgoEgor - 10/9/2023, 9:04 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - i am not saying that. Neither is the film, I think. It's important to have nuanced opinions on such topics.

People don't live in a vacuum. I'm generally of the opinion that most monsters are created and not born. And if that's the case, how do we as a society bare some of that blame, and what are things we can do, especially in policy, to remedy such things. It's nature vs nurture. I lean on the later.

Imo, the biggest issue tackled in the film is how policies neglected someone like Arthur, who had he been still receiving the care he needed, he wouldn't have done the things he did. The film isn't saying people who are mentally ill are violent. It's just pushing things to the nth degree to make their point. Which is imo more about classism, neglectful and corrupt policy can do harm.

I'm not saying that people who are mentally ill are automatically murders and the film isn't saying that either. Neglectful policies cause harm, and it's harmful even more to keep ignoring that.
santoanderson
santoanderson - 10/8/2023, 9:45 PM
Joker is a movie I saw once, and mostly enjoyed, but I’m in no hurry to see it again. It’s just a dark, joyless, depressing movie. It’s the opposite of escapist entertainment. If I’m depressed, I’ll put on Star Wars, and it’ll make me forget my worries and lift my spirits. Joker actively bummed me out, and made me more anxious than I was before I saw it.
TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/8/2023, 10:10 PM
Yup, there was no "celebration" of violence in one of his best movies.

TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/8/2023, 10:13 PM
@TheOtherOn - Forgot to add that movie, ironically, also stared Joaquin Phoenix being a violence loving A'hole of a villain.

mastakilla39
mastakilla39 - 10/9/2023, 12:28 AM
@TheOtherOn - is it really a celebration of violence if Maximus was forced to fight in gladiator games vs arthur fleck who danced happily after murdering a show host? not sure if i agree with your statement.

Gladiator ends leaning towards peace while joker ends with arthur fleck still being a nutjob and apparently murdering his psychiatrist....I say Ridley Scott is right on this one.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 1:22 AM
@TheOtherOn - This scene was literally Maximus being disgusted at the acts of violence he was being forced into partaking in.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 4:50 AM
@mastakilla39 - I think you know that a movie that isn't about peace doesn't mean it's celebrating violence. Oppenheimer doesn't end with the nuclear bomb being erased from history, but that doesn't mean it's celebrating nuclear bombs. Alien ends with all Ripley's crewmates dead, but I'd bet you wouldn't argue that movie is celebrating their deaths by it not ending with them alive again.

Like I said before, I think Scott struggles here to see the difference between the actions and feelings of characters and the depiction of their actions the movie gives, which I'd say is disturbing.

Not having peace doesn't equal the movie celebrating violence.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 4:52 AM
@OmegaBlack13 - Ah, yes, we need a character we like to be disgusted at the bad acts. We can't see that the movie itself is depicting those acts as disturbing./sarcasm

Like I said before, I think Scott confused the character focus for the moral alignment.
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 10/9/2023, 8:33 AM
@dagenspear - A character being disgusted is one of the ways a movie is depicting something, yeah. The culmination of Arthur Fleck’s journey is him embracing violence because he thinks it’s funny. It’s not There Will Be Blood man.
MahN166A
MahN166A - 10/9/2023, 8:38 AM
@mastakilla39 -

Violence is still Violence. Regardless of the context in how it’s being presented.
dagenspear
dagenspear - 10/9/2023, 2:42 PM
@OmegaBlack13 - It doesn't have to be. And I think the music, the cinematography and the visual itself are a way a film can portray how disturbing it is. The main character is supposed to be being a villain, he can't be disgusted at it because that's not what his character is about.

TheOtherOn
TheOtherOn - 10/9/2023, 6:54 PM
@mastakilla39 - Maximus was forced but almost EVERYONE else, the "slavemaster" and the audience in the arena, were all rather enjoying and celebrating. Of course there's a "message" in there for viewers (us) but it's the same for Joker movie too.

You can't say, oh but in Gladiator the violence was meant to be a bad thing because Hero didn't like it. But violence in Joker is "portrayed" as good because the supposed "Hero" (and there's a message in that too if people really think Joker was a Hero) liked doing it.

The reality is, a LOT of people didn't really get the message in Joker.
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