EDITORIAL: Nightwing Can Work

EDITORIAL: Nightwing Can Work

A rebuttal to John Campea of AMC Movie talk and all the Nightwing naysayers. The most important aspect of this issue is an understanding of what makes the Dick Grayson character so special and enduring.

Editorial Opinion
By seeether23 - Nov 17, 2013 05:11 PM EST
Filed Under: Batman vs. Superman

For the first time since I started watching AMC Movie talk, I found myself put off by John Campea. Like many others, it was due to his firm opinions regarding the rumored inclusion of Nightwing in the Batman VS Superman movie. John’s assertion that this inclusion equals no possible positive outcome on the movie is one that I take issue with. John Campea’s youtube show is AWESOME, and rightfully has a huge following. He’s usually bang on, but on this subject, he’s being closed-minded and inconsistent with his own movie philosophies. My fear is that since he has such a huge following, he could be spreading this close-mindedness to the detriment of movie fans who might just be taking this opinion as more sound than it is. So here’s a counter view.

John’s argument essentially breaks down as follows. The essence of the Dick Grayson character is sacrificed if Dick isn’t established as fighting crime as a 14-year-old Robin, which would make Batman a “super-douche”. It then becomes a false dilemma in which Batman is either a “super-douche” or Dick Grayson isn’t really Dick Grayson.

The most important aspect of this issue is an understanding of what makes the Dick Grayson character so special and enduring. John’s reasoning suggests that Dick’s age, 14 or younger specifically, is as important as any other quality. He sees no genuine interpretation in raising Dick’s initial crime fighting age to allow for a more realistic version. To John, he’s either a child crime fighter in a universe where that doesn’t make sense, or a full-grown man who isn’t a true interpretation. To John, there’s no middle ground.

Is there really no middle ground though? What really is the essence of who Dick Grayson is? He lost his parents in a similar fashion as Bruce. Bruce sees part of himself in Dick and takes him in to be his apprentice. Dick is extraordinarily physically gifted, well trained and determined, even before he meets Bruce. Dick is young and impressionable at the time he meets Bruce. I’m sure I’m missing a thing or two, but if they included only those qualities, they’d have a pretty accurate interpretation of Dick Grayson.

Notice that I didn’t put a specific age on Dick. That’s because it really doesn’t need to be that specific to be a true interpretation. He just needs to be young and impressionable. Comics visually overemphasize qualities in characters to make the story more visceral. Their movie adaptations routinely reduce these qualities to ad an element of believability and realism that’s more natural to the medium. In the comics, Robin is an early teen, who’s made to look more like a 7 yr old to hit the point home that he’s young. That doesn’t mean he needs to be a little kid in the movie. Why not just no older than 20?

The movie medium requires far less reliance on the visual qualities of the character to convey who that character is. Consequently, Dick can be 16-20 yrs old, while still being a genuine interpretation. It’s far more important how Dick acts, and how he relates to Bruce, than what his specific age is. More precisely, Dick’s maturity is what truly matters, not his age.

I suppose some, including John, might say that taking a 20 year old out crime fighting is still a terrible thing to do. As John would say, it’s certainly illegal and therefore not something Batman would do. Since when does Batman care about what’s legal? Crime fighting at any age is illegal! Part of the core of Batman is that he works outside of the system and cares for his interpretation of morality over societies’ legality. To Batman, there’s nothing wrong with taking a well-prepared youth out crime fighting. Batman’s supposed to be a little crazy…

Some might say that 20 is still clearly too immoral... How? Doesn’t America have a long lasting tradition of allowing less prepared 17 year olds fight in wars!? Why can’t a 17 year old who’s supposed to be extraordinarily gifted, well-trained and technologically enhanced fight street crime?

I suppose it could be argued that a 17 year old kid couldn’t possibly have the physical tools capable of fighting most full grown men. That argument is ridiculous. 18 year olds routinely compete at the highest athletic levels and thrive. Why can’t we push that to 16 or 17 for a comic book movie? We don’t seem to have a problem with Anne Hatheway right crossing trained terrorists the f%#$ out?

I’m definitely not trying to come off as genderist, but let’s call a spade a spade. 17 year old males possess the same physical fighting abilities as fully matured females. Now before you start spouting off about Ronda Rousey, ask yourself if you truly think that a 17-year-old Jon Jones couldn’t have handled himself against Ronda. That’s probably true of the 17 yr old versions of most of the top 5 fighters in any weight class.

In summary, I think it’s important that audiences are open to the possibility of a genuine interpretation of the Dick Grayson character. He’s a great character, and more importantly a meaningful one for exploring the Batman mythos (arguably 2nd to the Joker). Personally I like the possibility of exploring the entire Bat-Family at some point. I don’t think it should happen now, but I want each Batman story to be as different as possible from the last. So, let’s be open to possibility at least…

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Genaro
Genaro - 11/17/2013, 5:39 PM
Oh yeah very nice.
Bearjew
Bearjew - 11/17/2013, 5:48 PM
Editorials beo
chubbybubby
chubbybubby - 11/17/2013, 5:56 PM
John Campea is great, and like you, seeether, I was a little surprised by his opinion on the matter. But they are just that. Opinions. The movie is 1 1/2 years away, however to his credit, John did say the film could sway his opinion. For the time being though, he's not as enthused as he once was.
TheRealDorkKnight
TheRealDorkKnight - 11/17/2013, 5:57 PM
i completely agree great read mate
chubbybubby
chubbybubby - 11/17/2013, 6:04 PM
Also I remember John answering a question on the topic regarding possibly aging Dick up, to which he conceded that it could work, and the way the story is presented might sway him, but by creating an older Robin, the essence of the character would be destroyed or something to that effect. He also did acknowledge that his extremely biased in the matter, as he love Dick Grayson too much to see him on the big screen. He does contradict himself a bit, but as he always points out: film is subjective. If people are swayed by his negativity and end up not seeing the film, oh well, too bad for them I guess. We will all wait and see. I know I'll be there opening day.
crimsoncrusader
crimsoncrusader - 11/17/2013, 6:07 PM
I agree. Great article. Now just imagine if John Campea reads this!
ToxicCap
ToxicCap - 11/17/2013, 6:10 PM
He doesn't hate Nightwing, he even said that himself. He just doesn't feel he should be in the movies which I don't agree with.
seeether23
seeether23 - 11/17/2013, 6:29 PM
Hey all, glad you liked the article! To be extra clear, I think John is great and his show is great. I just think he let his emotions get the better of him on this subject, because he's freaked out of seeing a silly little kid Robin (understandably). I agree with him that movies are 100% subjective, but he was presenting reasons why the Nightwing inclusion was a bad idea as though it was objective, which was the main purpose of the article. Ultimately I just felt compelled to put it out there.
feedonatreefrog
feedonatreefrog - 11/17/2013, 7:01 PM
John Campea is a child.

It's really bizarre why he wouldn't assume that they would alter Dick Grayson's backstory slightly considering that almost every single comic book movie ever has altered things...

And literally the only thing you have to change is have it so he started Robin at 19, not 13 or whatever.

Baffling.
Ignition
Ignition - 11/17/2013, 7:01 PM
Nice article. Personally, I'd like to see Dick Grayson having joined Batman as a 17-20 year-old. Yeah it's different from the source, but I think it could work on screen. I am puzzled by John finding it perfectly acceptable and cool in the comics, but unacceptable and wrong in live-action. Neither is reality.
Indy
Indy - 11/17/2013, 7:02 PM
John Campea is awesome like he always says film is subjective I don't agree with him about the Spider-man films that find with me. I don't really want to see robin I like batman by himself. If zack going use him I be ok with it because Man of steel was awesome. After I saw batman begin I let Nolan do what ever he wanted because I trust him and he cast Heath as joker I didn't care same goes with Ben as batman I don't care. If they want put Robin/Nightwing in the film I cool with it.
bazinga85
bazinga85 - 11/17/2013, 7:09 PM
Great job, man! I totally agree with you, Snyder/Goyer can definitely make it work. You should e-mail them this editorial and see if John responds to it on Mailbag. Not likely, but still...
BenjiWest
BenjiWest - 11/17/2013, 7:12 PM
Campea is so contradictory, he's fine with similar changes with Bucky in CA:TFA, I mean they truly changed him, made him a big brother-like figure to Cap. That's ok, but it wouldn't work for Nightwing, some changes for the film interpretation of the character, it happens all the time. I don't know how he claimed the film would be "dead to him" wow, they're still just rumors.
batcheeks8
batcheeks8 - 11/17/2013, 7:15 PM
I agree, well done.
EdgyOutsider
EdgyOutsider - 11/17/2013, 7:16 PM
If Nightwing is in the film, it'll be a mistake. Snyder and Goyer struggled with Man of Steel. It just wasn't a good movie. The possibility of Wonder Woman appearing as Diana is pushing it unless they do a mid credit scene. Barry Allen makes sense given the right circumstance. It doesn't even feel like a Superman sequel anymore. The idea of Batman vs. Superman was intriguing at first but now it's like they are doing a smaller Justice League film before Justice League even happens.... this movie is [frick]ed until the final product changes my mind. The best thing about this movie so far is Ben Affleck.
feedonatreefrog
feedonatreefrog - 11/17/2013, 7:17 PM
It's weird that he maintains that he's 'not excited for the film anymore' and that the film is now 'dead to him', as if he can't comprehend that they could change things slightly...

Bizarre.

I wonder if the first Captain America movie was dead to him once he learned that Bucky would be in the film.

Did he freak out thinking that Cap would have a kid sidekick?
WruceBayne
WruceBayne - 11/17/2013, 7:17 PM
Why can't Dick Grayson have the same comicbook background? He could've joined Batman when he was 14 in 2001 and now its 2013 and he's 26. What's wrong with that?
batcheeks8
batcheeks8 - 11/17/2013, 7:18 PM
Dick was in his mid teens when he became Robin in the New 52, I've seen so much griping about that and the (in my opinion awesome) costume. But in my opinion it makes sense and I think the movies should follow.
DVonShakari
DVonShakari - 11/17/2013, 7:18 PM
You wrote all of this just because you got bent outta shape over someone's opinion??? Gotta learn to control those emotions....
Rescue08
Rescue08 - 11/17/2013, 7:26 PM
But if this isn't a batman origin story, which is the impression that I have been getting, then Dick Grayson's age is irrelevant... you have a couple Robin flashbacks to set it up for the 1 possible viewer who might not know the story and just use Nightwing... No biggie
LewisAGarcia
LewisAGarcia - 11/17/2013, 7:26 PM
This site is getting way too many editorials. They should be sectioned off and not in the main news feed. Don't get me wrong, I like other's opinions but seeing it too often on one page is just tedious.
seeether23
seeether23 - 11/17/2013, 7:41 PM
@FNSpidy. I really don't mind that John has a different opinion than me. I'm just pointing out that his own opinion is flawed and inconsistent. His own premises don't reach the conclusions he's presenting. He's wasn't making subjective arguments. He was saying if Nightwing doesn't start off as a little kid crime fighter than it absolutely loses the soul of the character. He's also not ok with a 16 yr old fighting crime. I just don't think it's as immoral as he states it objectively is in the case of Robin (reasons in the article).
seeether23
seeether23 - 11/17/2013, 7:43 PM
This really isn't an issue I'm bent out of shape about lol. I just felt compelled to point out a few things I hadn't heard anywhere else. It's just a conversation...
DVonShakari
DVonShakari - 11/17/2013, 7:43 PM
Be nice guys....its Sunday and that equals a slow news day....so usually anything will make it on the main page.....even a crazy explanation and justification for someone to have an opinion, like this page. Sunday = "do-what-you-can-day"
feedonatreefrog
feedonatreefrog - 11/17/2013, 7:48 PM
@FNSpidey

People aren't complaining because he has a different opinion.

They're complaining because they think it's bizarre that he would form that opinion.

He says the movie is dead to him because kid-sidekicks don't work in live action.

Why on Earth would he assume that the movie wouldn't change things..considering that all comic book movies change outlandish things to make them work.

Most of his viewers could see how they could easily make it work (just make him slightly older), but Jon jumped to "this movie is dead to me".

He later tries to backtrack saying that changing the character is also bad, using the extreme example of Bucky Barnes's treatment, saying that 'everything would have to be different', his entire origin story, etc, and that he wouldn't even be the same character, which is equally ridiculous.

All that has to change is how old he was when he started. He could still come from the circus, etc.

And even if he was completely different, he's embraced change before in the past.

When he saw how the Mandarin was different, Bane, Superman, Joker, Zod, etc, etc, he never said "this movie is dead to me!".

He's clearly just venting his self-repressed discontent on the movie/franchise in general and using this one piece of news as an outlet. Either that, or he has no sense of logic whatsoever.
GranGoose
GranGoose - 11/17/2013, 7:53 PM
We are talking about Nightwing right? The guy is not a teen and Batman is a "seasoned" Batman; now I think that being Grayson in B/S is gonna be like a way to probe the moviegoers with the interaction among three major characters for a upcoming JLA.
seeether23
seeether23 - 11/17/2013, 8:05 PM
@feedonatreefrog Totally! lol I don't want to harp on John too bad. His show is ambitious and really cool. He clearly has a sense of logic, which is why his presentation of his opinion is so baffling. And for everyone who thinks that I'm whining, I'm really not. I actually am impartial to Nightwing being included. I'd like an incarnation of Nightwing at some point, but I don't think this is the right movie for it. That being said I think the MOS team knows what they're doing. Maybe Nightwing will be like what Green Arrow was in the Dark Knight Returns. I dunno, the point is that it could be cool and interesting!
seeether23
seeether23 - 11/17/2013, 8:08 PM
@GranGoose You're right, they probably won't even get into how old Dick was when he started crime fighting. They don't really have to. They just have to point out that he used to work as Batman's sidekick. We can make up our own mind weather or not he was a 14, 15,16, 17, or 8 yr old Robin when he started. Point is that it shouldn't be such a big deal...
airbeyonder18
airbeyonder18 - 11/17/2013, 8:12 PM
You're article's good man but I still side with Campea.
Not just because. I didn't like the idea BEFORE he gave his thoughts on the matter a few days after the news was released.

Don't have to worry bout it anyways since the rumor has been shot down.
airbeyonder18
airbeyonder18 - 11/17/2013, 8:12 PM
But other than all that I still think you make good points.

Great article.
LittleDanglyThing
LittleDanglyThing - 11/17/2013, 8:28 PM
Tldr but Nightwing CAN work.
I also love Dick.
BOOZER111
BOOZER111 - 11/17/2013, 8:28 PM
Really great article. I feel you make complete sense on how Nightwing could work and I would love to see the kind of take on the character as you mentioned. Great job man.
RancidBane
RancidBane - 11/17/2013, 8:35 PM
This article is brilliant someone should email it to campea I think it would at least provide him with a different point of view and this is the kind of article he will read since it is very respectful and doesnt throw jabs at him
DVonShakari
DVonShakari - 11/17/2013, 8:36 PM
This is a Batman movie with Nightwing, a possible Wonder Woman cameo and Superman is supposed to be in it somewhere...
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