The Problem With Marvel Movies

The Problem With Marvel Movies

Are you tired of Marvel movies? Well, I'm not, but I am getting pissed off, so let me tell you what is wrong with Marvel movies.

Editorial Opinion
By YafiszKhan - Nov 09, 2015 02:11 PM EST
Filed Under: Marvel Comics
How many Marvel movies were released before The Avengers? Well, we had Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man II, Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger. Those are four movies for those of you who cannot count and the Avengers who did not get their own movie got introduced in other films.

How many DC movies will have been released before The Justice League? Let's see, there will be Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. Those will introduce the three core members of the Justice League and the other three will get their introductions via cameo roles in the films leading up to that one.

Wait, so, are you telling me, that because Marvel has released one more movie than DC their universe had a better setup than DC's? Shocking, I tell you shocking. The funny part is, by the time The Justice League comes out, they'll pretty much have had the same amount of movies leading up. Why? First of all, The Incredible Hulk doesn't count. Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner does not play like Edward Norton's and William Hurt's Thunderbolt in Captain America: Civil War will not play like his character in that film either. How much has that film been referenced? One offhand comment in The Avengers. Essentially, we were introduced to the Marvel Hulk in The Avengers. Okay, so by that standard, we have essentially had the same amount of films before the big "teamup film". Then there are those of you telling me that the DC universe is doomed to fail because Man of Steel was crap? Well I liked that movie, but think Iron Man II is as bad as Shaquille's Steel so I can understand where you are coming from so you should also understand that no, it does not mean the DCEU is doomed. However, that segways perfectly into my first point!
  • Which Movies Even Matter?

"That's right. I said it. I said it Johannesburg!" - Chris Rock
 
See, my first point is quite plain and simple? Which Marvel films even matter? Clearly Iron Man matters because it set everything up, Thor matters because it introduced us to Thor, same with The First Avenger. Does The Incredible Hulk matter? Does it really matter when it feels more like a sequel to Ang Lee's Hulk rather than a prequel to The Avengers? Does it matter when Edward Norton was replaced and William Hurt has gone on to say he does not think his second portrayl of Thunderbolt is a reprise?

"I don’t think it’s a reprise, I think it’s a new iteration completely." - William Hurt

No, that movie does not matter in the grand scheme of things at all. Sure it helped set up the MCU, but in retrospect, the MCU did not need it at all.

The problem was not that big in Phase One. One movie that does not matter. What about Phase Two, though? The problem here is huge! Do you want to know why? We got a whole Phase devoted to setting up a Phase! While Phase One's movies were devoted to setting up The Avengers, Phase Two's movies were devoted to setting up Phase Three! That's right, watch six movies so you can watch six more!

I liked Iron Man III. I thought Shane Black did a tremendous job. However, did it matter? Sure Tony Stark retired at the end, but we had him back in Avengers: Age of Ultron doing his thing with no explanation.

I liked Thor: The Dark World. I thought it was a visually stunning movie. Did it matter though? Oh you'll say, we were introduced to an Infinity Stone! No, we were not! We were introduced to a plot device which is going to matter in the NEXT PHASE, which so happened to be revealed by Kevin Feige as an Infinity Stone.

I liked Captain America: The Winter Soldier and out of all the movies in Phase Two, it mattered the most, but even then... Tell me, SHIELD collapsed but was still functioning at some capacity in Avengers: Age of Ultron? Just like Iron Man's retirment. More like Age of Retcon.

I liked Guardians of the Galaxy, but did it matter? I eman, sure, Marvel finally made a movie where the humor didn't rely on cheap audience pops, but why? You'll punch me in the face for this one, but I'm going to ask, how did it affect the next Avengers film? You'll tell me, "It's not supposed to! It's supposed to affect the one after that!" So, Phase Three then? Honestly, in terms of mattering, this film will be like Suicide Squad. I'm sure that film will be great too but hell no will it really matter either beyond being a great movie.

I liked Avengers: Age of Ultron but hell no did this movie matter. You got the same tease at the end of this movie as you did the last one. This movie didn't care at all what happened in Iron Man III or The Winter Soldier. You got that stupid Scarlet Witch sequence. Oh, and then right there "This is the best I can do" - and we know it it isn't good enough. There was no threat, we know that there are two Avengers movies coming after this and you're just building to set up the situation for PHASE THREE. Oh, you got Vision, big whoop, his brain/soul/gem/stone is only to set up Phase Three. Oh, and did anyone really even want this movie? Would you rather not have just gotten the films based off the Infinity Gauntlet comic arc instead?

I thought Ant-Man was the best effort Marvel made in a long time. Better than the other Phase Two movies. Yes, this film mattered. It was the only movie in Phase Two without a guarantee of a sequel. Without any need to connect to the next Avengers movie. They did make it connect, but it did not need to. This movie mattered. Why? For the first time in a long time Marvel made a movie that was standalone. So why does this movie matter and why does Guardians of the Galaxy not matter. It all goes down to what the films are trying to achieve. This movie is trying to make an intimate story about a father trying to do better. Guardians, no matter how great it is, doesn't have that. Star-Lord is an asshole in the beginning, he's an asshole at the end, Groot is a tree in the beginning and he's a tree at the end, Drax is an asshole in the beginning and he's an asshole at the end, Gamorra is obsessed with freedom at the beginning and well actually she had some development, and Rocket is an asshole all throughout. That movie taught us the value of friendship? Hooray. It was a good movie, but it doesn't matter as much as this one does.
 
  • The Avengers Paradox!

"I don't get high, but sometimes I wish I did. That way, when I messed up in life I would have an excuse. But right now there's no rehab for stupidity." - Chris Rock
 
Now, one of the biggest detractions against the DCEU is that they aren't taking time to set up their heroes so that The Justice League does not feel rushed, or that it is cramming too much into the movie. Essentially, they are saying that DC is doing the wrong thing by doing the opposite of Marvel (which they really aren't, but I've already told you why). However, tell me this, if Marvel did not make any of the movies they had made before The Avengers and then in 2012 released that film, would you like it? That's what I'm asking. If THAT film, was released without any of the lead in films, would you like it? Would you feel it was too rushed or crammed in way too much?

So here is the paradox:

Is The Avengers standalone? If you answer yes, well then none of Phase One really mattered at all. If you answer no, then The Avengers isn't a very good film unless you consider all those other Phase One movies.

Personally I think Phase One (most of it) matters, but no, without them you would have treated The Avengers just like you did Spider-Man 3 or Man of Steel.
  • Marvel Has Boxed Themselves In

"Tupac might be a political leader if he was alive, but then again, Tupac might be in a Tyler Perry movie right now, so you don’t know. He might be – Tupac might be the bad, dark-skinned boyfriend and the Tyler Perry movie … I would hope he’s a senator, but he might be kicking Jill Scott down a flight of stairs." - Chris Rock

Ah the Fox-Men! Tell me, how many of you want to see the MCU take on the X-Men? I don't. First of all, every single Marvel movie had been more comedic than X-Men should be. Hopefully the next Captain America rectifies that. It probably won't and will be using cheap theatre props. X-Men deals with serious issues and the jokes we get are at the behest of Wolverine, and those jokes are only to make him look like an asshole. Do you think Marvel is going to let Wolverine tell Tony Stark to go [frick] himself? I don't. Then there's continuity. How are X-Men going to even fit? You're telling me after they learn not to persecute Inhumans they're going to make the same mistake? Hell, where are the mutants? Why didn't Xavier just mindwipe all the Chitauri or Loki?

Now who wants to see an MCU take on Fantastic Four? We all do.

However. How will it work? Marvel has seriously messed up continuity problems. Why doesn't Coulson get an arm like the Winter Soldier? Why didn't the world start using Hydra's energy weapons from World War Two? They've boxed themselves in guys.

Next I have the villain problem, however, that's an issue for another article. So, quick, tell me kids, what did you learn?

Let me put it in bullet form for all of you:
  • The Incredible Hulk doesn't matter so DC will have released as many movies as Marvel before Marvel made The Avengers.
  • None of Phase Two matters at all. You could have literally just skipped to Phase Three.
  • The Avengers: Age of Ultron did not even need to happen.
  • Ant-Man works without the rest of the MCU.
  • The Avengers cannot hold up without Phase One.
  • Marvel has already convoluted their continuity.
  • Shoutout to my boys Gusto, Nomis and Yossarian.
That's all folks!

No, wait.

I challenge you all to answer the paradox.

Can't wait to read about how you all hate my guts in the comments.
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Antley
Antley - 11/9/2015, 3:32 PM
Holy [frick]! [frick] this guy!
SuperiorMrGod
SuperiorMrGod - 11/9/2015, 3:54 PM
I think the thing to keep in mind here is children and people with autism are allowed to frequent this website as well.
ThunderKat
ThunderKat - 11/9/2015, 3:57 PM
So, you didn't enjoy the movies?

Much as the comic books go, so do the movies. They have structured them in a shared universe wherein some repercussions are felt and other things are referenced. You don't have to see every single film to know what's going on. It's just more enjoyable if you do.

It's a similar argument to movie versus source material. Did most of it work? Was it still enjoyable?

That's what matters.
Danbito
Danbito - 11/9/2015, 4:03 PM
Well I agree on the X-Men part. I don't want them in the MCU. If this was earlier in the game, sure I'd give it a shot. But at this point it's too much effort to try and retcon them into it. Do they even have a place in it? Marvel overall seems set to have Inhumans overall be the new "mutants" in how they're outcastes by society and struggle to have a place in it. Despite people's problems with how Fox's adaptations of the X-Men franchise, they're trying to step up their game. I'd rather have a universe that focuses on the X-Men brand than have them in the MCU on a supporting basis, as ultimately everyone falls second to the Avengers: the MCU's golden stars. For instance, we can have all arguments on how ridiculous X-Men: Apocalypse is, but in the MCU, can we justify how a world threat like Apocalypse, an X-Men villain, can be handled by X-Men without anything from The Avengers
Darkknight2149
Darkknight2149 - 11/9/2015, 4:13 PM
Who cares it's from Marvel, DC, Fox, or Sony! A good film is a good film. All of this studio bias is ridiculous.
Darkknight2149
Darkknight2149 - 11/9/2015, 4:15 PM
Also,

JamesMann
JamesMann - 11/9/2015, 4:18 PM
"How many Marvel movies were released before The Avengers? Well, we had Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man II, Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger. Those are four movies for those of you who cannot count"

... that's five movies.
Kyos
Kyos - 11/9/2015, 4:20 PM
Yes, this film mattered. It was the only movie in Phase Two without a guarantee of a sequel. Without any need to connect to the next Avengers movie. They did make it connect, but it did not need to. This movie mattered. Why? For the first time in a long time Marvel made a movie that was standalone.

You say GOTG doesn't matter because it doesn't directly affect the next Avengers movie, and then praise Ant-Man for doing the same thing and say it does matter because of it?
pintoman
pintoman - 11/9/2015, 4:23 PM
The author of this article is over thinking it. None of the films "really matter". Only family matters. Right? They're all movies. I like most of the Marvel films. Each has had great moments. Iron Man 1 and Guardians are the most complete. They did entertain. I think you forget the "challenge" each movie took on moving the industry from "realistic" non-super power action heroes (Batman begins) to something that was expanded. Marvel has created this modern space for super-powered movies.

DC and Marvel are not connected. There are no strings. They will be different.
Ironbot
Ironbot - 11/9/2015, 4:27 PM
You know, Phase 2 might not have been perfect, and maybe some mistakes were made along the way. But calling it pointless and all that is a really lazy excuse. Sure, Thor 2 and Avengers 2 weren't exactly Marvels finest movies (maybe because due to all the constant revisions done by Ike Perlmutter and The Creative Committee) but outside of those, Phase 2 actually did have a point. And whatever mistakes made in this phase, surely will be fixed upon in Phase 3 I can tell ya that.
MCUsDarkKnight
MCUsDarkKnight - 11/9/2015, 4:28 PM
this is the risk you take with a user generated site you get shitty things like this
DeusExSponge
DeusExSponge - 11/9/2015, 4:37 PM
DrChimRichards - I agree, it's good in moderation but Marvel up the ante too much in Age of Ultron.
PsychoticSpaceRaccoon
PsychoticSpaceRaccoon - 11/9/2015, 4:37 PM
I know you probably spent a lot of time on this, but...

I didn't learn anything.

It's a garbage rant with no analytical or writing skill to back it up.
m0th3r
m0th3r - 11/9/2015, 5:14 PM
interesting editorial...As a mcu fanboy, i want FF home..but Xmen are fine at fox and as stand alone franchise. I would like to see everyone play nice...and would like to see more depth in the MCU..

Keep in mind Feige just ousted Perlmutter so we may be getting positive changes
EricBorder
EricBorder - 11/9/2015, 5:49 PM
Interesting stuff, and you actually make some good points in here

I think with anything, it's easy to look back in retrospect and see the flaws.

The main draw to the Avengers was that we never saw a Cinematic Universe come together in that way and on that scale, it was the first time seeing everyone together.

Just seeing promo picks of everyone together was exciting, but that has started to fade for me, especially after Ant-Man and AOU, and I really don't like a lot of the changes that they've made with the characters

I wish they didn't connect Ultron and Vision to the Infinity Stones so much, and I wish Hank Pym and Janet were Ant-Man and Wasp. I wanted to see Hank and Janet, not Lang and Hope, so it takes me out of things.... Pym is such an interesting character with so much history and so is Janet

I like X-Men at Fox too, I'd like to see what Marvel would do with them especially as far as costumes and action, but First Class and DOFP are great movies, really looking forward to Apocalypse

Civil War is really going to determine how I feel moving forward, I think
Batnut92
Batnut92 - 11/9/2015, 6:10 PM
I just....I can't thumb this. This is nothing more than an ill-constructed rant with little to no analytical thinking put behind it and serious misgivings at a few points, like for example...Iron Man NEVER retired in Iron man 3, The movie literally ended with him stating, I am Iron Man. Not to mention its not even in the right section. Not gonna waste another second beyond this post.
TheSoulEater
TheSoulEater - 11/9/2015, 6:25 PM
Just move your article to the other section.

Other than that, most of this is spot on
DerekLake
DerekLake - 11/9/2015, 8:41 PM
Well the films don't have to "matter". But things like this do raise the question of whether the MCU is, in fact, "all connected."

I think the bigger question is whether the TV shows matter, and that is doubtful. Consider that the films have contained no clear, definitive reference to the events of the TV shows. AOS's after-the-fact connection to AOU and the latter's vague, unconsequential allusion aside, there is practically a gigantic gulf between the TV shows and the films. The Netflix shows are even more estranged, embodying very different approaches (and not just tones and stories) than the films.

Some of this is simply a reflection of the vast differences in audience size, but another part of this is an executive decision NOT to connect the two more closely. Consider that first, the TV shows have always been outside of Feige's control. I recall him saying at one point that he hadn't even seen Daredevil. Second, there have been clear differences of opinion between TV execs and film execs, with the latter (Whedon and Feige, I think) essentially denying that Coulson (and by extension SHIELD) were even alive; let's not forget Feige's "there will be no dark turns" (Daredevil and Jessica Jones??).

So I think that while the TV shows are nominally connected -- the ABC shows more than the Netflix shows -- they aren't really connected, not in a way that actually constrains or enriches the films.
ThunderKat
ThunderKat - 11/9/2015, 9:33 PM
@YafiszKhan

This is the nature of serial material. "Star Trek" is the biggest perpetrator or offender. If you watch any of the shows, you know the main crew has to begin and end the show the same.

If you were dissatisfied, you didn't enjoy them. Try to have some fun with them. They're connected. It's not a commandment that you see each and every one.

If you want a film that matters, watch documentaries.

I'm not arguing with you. I just think you're not letting go enough to enjoy.
Lhornbk
Lhornbk - 11/9/2015, 9:55 PM
*sigh* I can't tell if you're just a DC fan who is trying to trash Marvel without being too obvious, or if you actually believe this nonsense.

TIH was not even close to being a sequel to that piece of garbage that Ang Lee made, and it did help set up Hulk in the Avengers, if only to show why Shield would keep an eye on him and build a special cage for him. Yes, all the Phase 2 movies did matter (even if TDW was mediocre at best), and no they don't have too much humor (that argument is getting tired, btw.) Stark did NOT retire at the end of IM 3, he clearly states at the end that he will always be Iron Man. He just goes back to only having one suit instead of over 30.

Yes, AoU was needed, and imo is slightly superior to the first, just because it didn't have to waste time introducing the heroes to each other. Plus, it moved the character arcs along for everyone, but especially Cap and Stark. Yes, it sets up Phase 3, but it still stands just fine on its own, and that's just part of having a connected universe.

X-Men, well frankly I just don't care that much about them. The movies are good, but I'm just not that big a fan of the characters, so I don't really care what happens with them. Frankly, I would rather they stay at Fox just because I don't want Marvel getting distracted from the characters they are using now. And Fantastic 4, at most I might want to see Johnny and Sue join the MCU. Thing is just a less powerful version of Hulk, and Reed Richards really isn't needed, either for his intellect or his abilities (which are stupid.)

As for DC, I loved Man of Steel, and overall I am fine with how they are building their universe. So no, I am not someone who goes for all this DC vs. Marvel nonsense. I like both.
tonytony
tonytony - 11/9/2015, 10:47 PM
good editorial but you are going to catch some heat for this as this is a marvel site props for having the guts to say it as it is.
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