More Green?: Thoughts on the MCU Thor, Ragnarok, and the Hulk

More Green?: Thoughts on the MCU Thor, Ragnarok, and the Hulk

Some musings on the success of the MCU and my concerns about the next Thor film.

Editorial Opinion
By Simonsonrules - Oct 17, 2015 08:10 AM EST
Filed Under: Thor: Ragnarok

The recent announcement that “Thor: Ragnarok” will include the Hulk (presumably still portrayed by the excellent Mark Ruffalo) came as a pleasant surprise to most. This longtime fan of the titular hero is still mulling it over.

At this point, the world of Marvel Studio’s Cinematic Universe is a sprawling one. It is rightly criticized as formulaic, but its success is largely a matter of reproducing formula, in keeping with the comics source material at its core. “Phase 1” was a success on account of the general fidelity to the origin stories that are its core: the beginnings of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America as presented in the MCU were close enough to their 1960s print counterparts to excite and satisfy generations of nerds. To my mind, “Phase 2” was also largely judged in terms of fidelity to source material. Hence the failure of “Iron Man 3.” This film had a fine political argument—and Ben Kingsley was hilarious—but my inner nerd remains disappointed in the now infamous twist. No amount of one-shot backpedalling is going to repair the damage anytime soon. If the studio could not devise an inoffensive way of dealing with a racial caricature (i.e. “the Mandarin”), they should have picked another villain and held off on Iron Man’s top foe until a better solution emerged.

Fidelity to the source material will, usually, win over the fans. I had long given up buying / reading Captain America comics when the “Winter Soldier” story was published (I still can’t believe the cardinal “resurrection” rule of Marvel Comics is no more) but the source material was innovative—not a stunt—and thus translated well to the screen. The film is the best of “Phase 2,” and while fidelity to the source is the major factor for its success, it was also brilliantly written and directed.

This is where I’ll confess some confusion with the criticisms levelled at the Thor movies on this site. If fidelity to the source material was what made “Phase 1” a success, Branagh’s Thor did rather well. One might criticize the omission of the alter-ego Donald Blake—a major component of the origin story—but this diehard fan thought the decision to dump the old Clark Kent idea played well here. There are some other arguments that I’ve read on this site concerning what we might call the Asgardians’ “theological” character in the comics as opposed to their “alien” character on the screen. According to a recent story, for instance, Thor can hear the prayers of beings on other worlds. The concept of the reality of an actual Norse deity defending the earth from supervillains has always been a tricky one for Marvel. Roy Thomas wrestled with it in the 1970s to some extent, and the “God Butcher” story returns to it, if obliquely. Surely Marvel / Disney were concerned that some members of the public would find the notion of actual Gods problematic. Hence, the “give or take 5,000 years” line from Thor: The Dark World and other such allusions to the Asgardians’ status as long-lived aliens. On this issue, therefore, I’m also ready to compromise. Especially since the theological character of the Asgardians’ divinity is not necessarily the defining feature of the Thor canon.  

What is that feature? It was the vision of Stan and Jack in the 1960s. Stan—bless his soul—read some Norse mythology. Sprinkle in some Superman and (this is important) some Kirby magic, and you get the bizarre mixture of Shakespearean English, Hollywood drama, Kirby bombast, and 1960s Jewish comedic sensibility that was the Lee / Kirby Thor. Both Thor films delivered this to us, in my humble opinion. Thor: The Dark World has taken some fair criticism on account of its editing (it was too short) and the poor development of the Malekith figure. But visually, for an old school Thor fan, it was a feast. I mean, there were flying Viking warships with lasers. Ridiculous, no? About as ridiculous as the notion that a Norse God would come to earth and fight supervillains. Lee and Kirby’s work was tongue-in-cheek. Even Simonson’s was at certain points. The knee-jerk condemnations of “The Dark World” on account of the comic relief have less to do with the Thor character and its source material and more to do with the contemporary preference for dark, brooding, anti-heroes. Comics have not always been so stilted in favor of the latter. I think that this is largely a matter of genre, which is why Thor has traditionally occupied such an unusual place in the Marvel Universe.

Here’s my major concern, and it’s piddling. The diehard Thor fan in me does not want the Hulk in a film about Ragnarok. My investment in the MCU is largely Thor-centric, and up until this point, I’ve been satisfied with the treatment of the character because it has focused squarely on Thor. My childhood hero. The Ragnarok source material—and by this I mean Lee / Kirby, the super Simonson run, and the loving homage to the Thor universe that was Oeming’s “Avengers: Disassembled” run—did not need the Hulk. I’m concerned about the next Captain America film for similar reasons. Once the big three—or four—begin to appear in each other’s films, you may as well just title every other MCU installment “The Avengers : etc.”  My fear now is that the third Thor film will be a live action of the recent “Thor versus Hulk” cartoon that, while well made, is not the Simonson Ragnarok of which “Thor: The Dark World” was supposedly the harbinger. Those among us who are welcoming the addition of the Hulk to this film are not diehard Thor fans. I get it. But what I’m seeing now is less of a concern with source material—the true bread and butter behind the success of the MCU—and more of a capitulation to the Disney CEOs who want to cash in on their investment. This MCU Thor fan has been happy with the product so far, but now I want Thor, Loki, Odin, and an enormous Surtur fighting it out amid the smoldering ruins of Asgard. I want to stick with the formula, even if more green means more green. 

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kinghulk
kinghulk - 10/17/2015, 10:02 AM
i dont want hulk in ragnarok
TheLokey1
TheLokey1 - 10/17/2015, 10:58 AM
Like it or not, phase 3 seems to be the team up phase. Iron man and cap, Thor and hulk, ant man and wasp. While I'm sure some of those pairings will work better than others, it's still exciting.

I think Thor will pull Banner into Asgard as he will realize that what he is up against may be too great for him to handle alone and he trusts the Hulk after fighting by his side for a while on earth. Personally, I would rather see Balder the Brave and Sif be the ones to assist Thor but Hulk needs to get some play somewhere in phase 3 and this seems like a simple solution. Besides it seems like marvel has forsaken the Balder character in favor of the Warriors 3.
MileHighRonin
MileHighRonin - 10/17/2015, 2:03 PM
Still thinking we are going to get a Red Hulk in Ragnarok.
sikwon
sikwon - 10/17/2015, 7:07 PM
Hulk is in Ragnarok because Thor solo movies haven't made the kind of money they need to. It's really that simple. Personally I liked both movies but Marvel movies have absolutely set a standard for the kind of money they need to make. Hulk almost guarantees that Thor makes in the neighborhood hood of 750 - 800 million. For a 3rd movie in a blockbuster trilogy it has to make big money.
Lhornbk
Lhornbk - 10/18/2015, 6:17 PM
*sigh* more whining about source material. *sigh*

Ok, first of all, the whole "send Hulk into space so we can have Planet Hulk" idea is just stupid. Planet Hulk would just be dumb for a movie. I mean seriously, a whole movie that is basically just Hulk fighting, and with little or no Banner.

Contrary to what most of you fanboys believe, you do NOT have to always follow source material exactly. Look at both Avengers movie. Neither storyline really came from a comic, except the general idea that Loki wanted to rule Earth and Thanos wanting the Infinity stone, and Ultron being a genocidal robot that wants to destroy humanity. They changed Ultron's origin so that Stark built him instead of Pym and he didn't have Pym's brain patterns, but it still worked very well (despite lots of whining from Hank Pym fanboys.)

So it is perfectly ok for them to not follow the Ragnorak stories from the comics that closely and to put Hulk into it, as long as they come up with a good story (which they did NOT do for TDW.) Civil War will be unable to follow the comic closely due to rights' issues and the lack of secret identities, but I have little doubt that they came up with a great story and that it will be successful (although I do hope they limit Spiderman's presence. That is the one thing I could see mucking it up.) If they come up with a plausible reason for Hulk to be there and use him in an interesting way, it will be fine.
sKeemAn
sKeemAn - 10/19/2015, 4:01 PM
I agree with you. I'm a huge Thor fan and thought the 2 films were great despite its flaws. However I have to agree with @sikwon. If this is Thor's last film (he shouldnt be limited to a trilogy), they need to go all out and get that BO up on Thor films. Adding the Hulk will do just that.
I'm very concerned that we will get the Thor vs Hulk as well. Its very possible that we not get Surtur destroying Asgard, and it will be the Hulk doing the damage. I'm praying to god that doesn't happen. Nice read
mook
mook - 10/20/2015, 8:25 AM
It depends how he is used. The big questions are;

How does Hulk get from Earth to Space? Is he under someone's control? Where does he end up afterwards, before Infinity War?
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