AVENGERS: ENDGAME Co-Director Joe Russo Expresses Concerns With Oversaturation Of Multiverse Storytelling

AVENGERS: ENDGAME Co-Director Joe Russo Expresses Concerns With Oversaturation Of Multiverse Storytelling

Avengers: Endgame co-director Joe Russo has shared his thoughts on Hollywood's habit of doubling down on a popular idea, expressing concerns that the Multiverse could soon be played out.

News
By JoshWilding - Feb 24, 2022 03:02 PM EST
Filed Under: Avengers: Endgame
Source: IGN

After the success of Spider-Man: No Way Home, it appears we'll be seeing a lot of the Multiverse from Marvel Studios moving forward. The Sony PIctures movie just made over $1.8 billion by teaming up the three live-action Spider-Men, while 2018's Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse won an Oscar for its beautifully animated trip through multiple realities. 

This May, the MCU looks set to take "Variants" to a whole new level in the aptly titled Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, while Warner Bros. is also getting in on the act with The Flash. 

Recently, Avengers: Endgame co-director Joe Russo appeared at DICE 2022 and spoke with IGN about how this Multiverse concept runs the risk of outstaying its welcome as Hollywood looks to capitalise on a successful new trend. "The corporate agenda is: Do you like chocolate ice cream? Well here chocolate ice cream with sprinkles, here's chocolate ice cream with fudge. It's their job to turn the money printer on. It's the creative's job to say, 'Well shit, I don't know if I want to watch that.'"

"So yeah, too much of one thing is a bad thing, but I think there are enough creators and innovators in the space where you can expect to be surprised. Just don't expect corporations to surprise you."

This isn't necessarily a case of Russo turning on his former corporate overlords to make a point about companies like Marvel Studios and Warner Bros., and is more an observation of the problems faced by filmmakers in the modern studio system (which is a big part of why he and Anthony have launched AGBO, their own independent movie studio). 

Asked, for example, how he would go about making a movie in the Star Wars Universe, Russo explained that "there's always a creative engine behind [franchises like Star Wars] that's passionate about the material, that lives for the material, that bleeds for the material," noting that it's important for him and his brother to make sure they partner with similarly creative individuals.

Do you think Hollywood runs the risk of becoming oversaturated with Multiverse movies?

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MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/24/2022, 3:06 PM
I'm thankful for No Way Home but the multiverse is a pretty bad idea.
Unites
Unites - 2/24/2022, 3:08 PM
@MadThanos - Nah. I think it's cool as long as they don't overuse it and move on after Doctor Strange 2. It's a fun way to use actors from non-MCU comic book franchises and acknowledge them without impacting the actual MCU events. Cool for the fans, great for Marvel's pockets.
MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/24/2022, 3:12 PM
@Unites - one of the key elements the MCU works with general audiences is because they found the perfect balance between science and fiction.

The multiverse is just an awful idea and a concept that removes the urgency because nothing is at stakes anymore.
Drace24
Drace24 - 2/24/2022, 3:20 PM
@MadThanos - I agree, as long as it's just that.

I mean, some logic would be nice tho. Like explaining why variants, who are supposed to be the same person, can still look so different. I can accept that Maguire-Peter simply comes from a timeline where... a different sperm won... but then what about Aunt May? MCU May is quite a lot younger than Maguire's May. So was she born in a different decade but is still the same person?

And how exactly are Loki and Sylvie the same person when they don't have the same name, sex (and therefor genes), life and powers? And how is that other Loki black? Did he have different parents - are there frost giants of color? And if so... how are they both the same person?

And even if you can explain that... explain the ALLIGATOR!!!
Drace24
Drace24 - 2/24/2022, 3:24 PM
@MadThanos - Good point...
counter point: Rick and Morty. That show is all about the multiverse and the nihilism it invokes. It constantly acknowledges that nothing really matters if you have access to other timelines and it freely kills of characters... even main characters... and replaces them with variants.

And yet it still works. People are still involved. I don't get it either, but it seems to work out well enough.
SonOfAGif
SonOfAGif - 2/24/2022, 3:26 PM
@MadThanos - The problem with the Multiverse concept and it seems to be bleeding into the MCU is that each creative team have a different concept and theory for how the multiverse works. So each team does little tweaks and concepts and it ends up retconning something that came before or is in the midst of coming out. No Way Home flirted with the idea of non Marvel Studios properties existing as variants. But now this causes problems with what Loki established with the TVA and how his series ended with a Kang controlled TVA. How do these stories have ramifications for all MCU projects remains to be seen. Somehow everyone forgot about Arishem overlooking Earth which is arguably more biblical then what we are seeing with the multiverse (THUS FAR)
OmegaBlack13
OmegaBlack13 - 2/24/2022, 3:35 PM
@MadThanos - I’ve never understood this argument. Sure there are other versions of Strange out there, but we have been following a single guy. Him dying or getting hurt would still matter. Even if another Strange replaced him it’s not gonna be the same guy so the stakes remain the same.
TheHumanSpider2
TheHumanSpider2 - 2/24/2022, 3:35 PM
@MadThanos - We are at a point where movies are taking some of the WORST aspects of comic books.
dragon316
dragon316 - 2/24/2022, 3:50 PM
@Unites - that be great but marvel has overused things in past movies comedy is one of them sex jokes is another
dragon316
dragon316 - 2/24/2022, 3:52 PM
@Waddles - mock guy if people want if not for rob we would not have got cable and Deadpool characters in marvel comics
Igorina
Igorina - 2/24/2022, 5:08 PM
@Drace24 - One of my many reasons to dislike the Loki show (it's going to be my gimmick for tonight, apparently--sorry about that, folks), or indeed most of 'What If?', is that their makers seemed to have included multiversal stuff mostly because they thought it'd be cool, rather than crafting in priority something that would make sense following the franchise's own logic.

Of course there's no reason for Loki to be an alligator in a horned helmet in some other dimension. Of course it is illogical that Sylvie be the only female Loki (or that Loki acts nothing like in his previous appearances in the MCU) and that the TVA would still allow her to grow past the age of three minutes. To me, most of Disney+ Marvel felt like it was written by people who haven't seen much if any of the previous MCU, or didn't care for what they saw. I fear that kind of 'corruption' (egad, that sounds so dramatic) of a once fairly coherent universe might devolve the franchise a bit.
Model101
Model101 - 2/24/2022, 5:24 PM
@OmegaBlack13 - You made my point for me. When I was a kid reading the comics and watching the animated shows For example , with Spider-Man, Ben Reilly or Miguel O'Hara etc could die but as long as Pete was ok /survived that's all that mattered.

Marvel Comics killed off Peter at one point but I had already stopped reading comics before then.
MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/24/2022, 6:06 PM
@Drace24 - well clearly all those questions, they won't bother to explain.

This is the sad part because it means it's downhill quality wise from now on.

People went to see Maguire and Garfield, not because a multiverse story like Multiverse of Madness is relying on.
MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/24/2022, 6:13 PM
@SonOfAGif - you mentioned Arishem, I have some questions: does the Celestials know about the multiverse?

Counting all variants, do they share the same soul? When one variant dies, what happens to that soul?!

When Dormammu struck a deal with Doctor Strange, this only applies to the prime timeline, right? Because there's no time in the Dark Dimension, so only one Dormammu will ever exist.

So, why didn't Dormammu go for the Earth on those dimensions?

Like you said, they didn't stop to think about the consequences of making the multiverse a thing in the MCU and now each writer and each project brings new concepts.
MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/24/2022, 6:18 PM
@TheHumanSpider2 - sadly this is very true.
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/24/2022, 6:41 PM
@SonOfAGif @MadThanos - Dormammu could have attacked Earth at any time after the Time Stone was destroyed and Strange was dusted. The 10 Rings in Iron Man 1 seemed to have no ties or motive as the 10 Rings in Shang Chi.
Thor destroying Bifrost in Thor 1 seemed to bring consequence to his return to Earth and yet he got back in Avengers and that was never explained further.
Stark destroys the hall of armors at the end of Iron Man 3 as a grand gesture that he's done, until the next movie.
Ego's attack on Earth was never mentioned.

They didn't stop thinking of the consequences way before they introduced the Multiverse.
Spike101
Spike101 - 2/24/2022, 7:04 PM
@MadThanos - yep agreed. For me it’s just lazy writing and it allows options to cover up massive plot holes and reboots.
MadThanos
MadThanos - 2/25/2022, 2:10 AM
@Darth258 - the Bifrost was explained.

Odin had to use a huge amount of Dark Energy for Thor. They got the Tesseract back, rebuilding the Bifrost.
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/25/2022, 10:56 AM
@MadThanos - That's one out of several.. even if it feels like a cop out considering the stakes at the end of Thor. Honestly i completely forgot about that..

Was the "Dark Energy" ever used again in the MCU?
dracula
dracula - 2/24/2022, 3:06 PM
Has a point

We are getting multiverse professor x before mcu professor x

Really whats the point of a variant of a character we dont have yet
JDL
JDL - 2/24/2022, 4:07 PM
@dracula - "Really what's the point of a variant of a character we don't have yet ?"

They get to use the existing actors/portrayals to establish establish things.
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/24/2022, 4:08 PM
@dracula - Considering they pushed themselves in a corner at the start with the whole Fox rights problem how do you think they could introduce mutants without a multiverse?

They sure didn't exist as of now. They could appear after the couple snaps, considering a shift in energy on Earth was already mentioned, but how could you have a Magneto, that was "born" in WW2, appearing now and suddently having powers at over 90 years of age? Because, atleast for him, i can't imagine Eric having a different background without messing up the character. Even the concept of Mutants as outcasts is weird now that everything must scream inclusion, they will change that somehow if they're introduced in the MCU.
dracula
dracula - 2/24/2022, 4:16 PM
@Darth258 - id say have mutants be an extremely rare thing, just a few like Magneto, Professor X, wolverine and Apocalypse. like a 1 in a billion chance of happening

one of the infinity stones gave quicksilver and scarlet witch their powers so go that route, maybe 10% of people brought back from the snap were brought back with their x gene activated and are slowly becoming aware of their abilities.
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/24/2022, 4:25 PM
@dracula - That is one of the theories i listed, and it would make sense for most mutants. Besides being basically the same way Inhumans appeared on Agents of Shield with the fish oil pills.

But Magneto needs to be a survivor of the concentration camps (can't think of something similar in recent history that might give him the same drive) and i doubt we'll get a senior citizen playing the role, Wolverine will lose his whole background being "ageless" and even older than Mags, Apocalypse couldn't be old as the pyramids unless a mummy suddently got powers.
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/24/2022, 4:29 PM
Even the "they were there all along" would be a dumb introduction considering it was used for the Eternals already.
dracula
dracula - 2/24/2022, 4:43 PM
@Darth258 - For Wolverine and Apocalypse, like I said they could be the one in a billions.

Don't know how they will change Magneto, Charles can just be born later, but Magneto needs to be tied to some great tragedy. It would be changing his race but they could tie him into the Rwandan genocide. Would be sacrificing his potential connection to wanda though.

If they hadnt done it with Zemo, could have made him sarkovian
Darth258
Darth258 - 2/24/2022, 5:09 PM
@dracula - Ah, you meant those from the multiverse. Apoligies.

I've to say the controversies for changing a character with Jewish origins into something else will be interesting if that happens. It would be less troublesome for them to skip Magneto entirely and just focus on the rest of the mutants.

Or just do a Secret Wars event, introduce the whole new team from another universe (brand new, not fox) into Battleworld and then at the end merge those earths in an Earth 2.0 like DC/CW did at the end of Crisis.

They could even do their standalone movies to introduce the characters before the event.
Igorina
Igorina - 2/24/2022, 5:20 PM
@dracula - You mean Sokovian, right? I've already seen people venture that theory of a Tutsi Magneto, but I don't think Marvel would touch that with a ten-foot pole: that genocide was perpetrated by Rwandans against Rwandans. The Holocaust has this 'advantage' of having a clear, Nazi enemy slaughtering a religious minority. It'd make more sense, for instance, to make Erik a Bosnian Muslim. Still... It's all so tasteless it's a little heartbreaking. Neither of those massacres involved fictitious people, and the wounds are still open even for the oldest ones. It may be a better idea to simply invent a country, its ethnicities and their eventual persecution.
dracula
dracula - 2/24/2022, 5:26 PM
@Igorina - guess you can have him be from the same country as doctor doom
Model101
Model101 - 2/24/2022, 5:31 PM
@dracula - Magento watching his mutant wife/family member being killed by the government or shield could be the tragedy, no need to race swap all the time. Mutants are their own race if you really think about it!! And reduce the mutant population to a million or a few hundred thousand or a thousand, like Scarlett Witch did in the comics.

The mutant's should have a global community and not just a handful of them.
narrow290
narrow290 - 2/24/2022, 3:08 PM
I'll be happy when all the multiverse stuff is finished
Drace24
Drace24 - 2/24/2022, 3:11 PM
So far I'm okay with what they are doing. I want them to explore the multiverse. But I draw the line at using multiverse mumbo jumbo to retcon shit or for copout explanations for things like Mutants or whatever. I'm really afraid that one day they go too wild and ruin the carefully crafted continuity that they have build up over more than a decade.

But so far they haven't, even though they would have had the opportunity several times.
WeaponXCII
WeaponXCII - 2/24/2022, 3:17 PM
He's got a point. The reason that we didn't get "Avengers fatigue", I think, is because they focused on telling the individual stories first. If they can keep that going with the multiverse, I have no worries really.
SonOfAGif
SonOfAGif - 2/24/2022, 3:27 PM
@WeaponXCII - We didn't get Avengers fatigue due to Covid. Endgame came and we all experienced it and boom the pandemic came right after.
DalekCraigWasson
DalekCraigWasson - 2/24/2022, 4:30 PM
@SonOfAGif - I am very, very curious what would have happened if Black Widow and Eternals had been released in 2020 in the multiverse where Covid never happened. I feel like it would have been a bloodbath, especially for Eternals (which I liked personally mind you).

I forget: were the shows always 2021 or would they too have come out in 2020? And wasn't Falcon and the Winter Soldier gonna be first? WandaVision at the start of 2020 and NWH at the end basically assured Marvel dominance, but in the world where BW, Eternals, and FatWS were released immediately post Endgame...
WeaponXCII
WeaponXCII - 2/24/2022, 5:07 PM
@SonOfAGif - I was thinking more of the beginnings of the MCU- way before Endgame was even made. There was a buildup to the first Avengers. It was an event. In fairness, we have known about the multiverse since at least Doctor Strange, I think, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but maybe that's where the concerns are coming from.
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