Changes in the source material regarding the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Good and Bad.

Changes in the source material regarding the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Good and Bad.

A lot of hard hits recently on how Marvel hasn't followed the comics well in their Avengers movies. Specifically with the Mandarin and the no Hank Pym announcement in The Avengers: Age of Ultron.

Editorial Opinion
By GinjaNinja - Jul 24, 2013 08:07 AM EST
Filed Under: Avengers

With every movie based off of anything, there is going to be change. Change can be for the better or for the worse Sometimes something is just too hard to put on the big screen, sometimes it just isn’t practical. But sometimes, change is unneeded. There are a lot of changes from the Marvel Comic Universe (or Earth – 616) to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. These are what I believe have been some of the more talked about, and more important changes in their storyline.

Nick Fury.


Now most of you are probably thinking I’m going to say “Oh he’s black!” Not the case. Nick Fury is originally white I know, but in the ultimate universe he is African-American. Not only has that but Samuel L Jackson played him well enough that it was a good change. The changes I’m referring too are in accord with his abilities. In the comics Nick Fury is along the lines of the super soldier that Captain America is. He also has long life and was in the Howling Commandoes that we see Captain America lead in his solo movie. Now are the changes necessary? And are these changes good or bad? Well both are a matter of opinion, but here is mine. Are they Necessary? In a way I say no, in Captain America they could have easily had the character played by Derek Luke just be young Nick, he then have a small explanation and leave it there. But that would have hurt them in the later years because Cap wouldn’t have the same need to follow Nick Fury’s commands in the Avengers. Any other changes could have really changed the movie and been a little too much for one little addition. Personally I am indifferent as to if it is a bad change or not. He isn’t really needed as the super soldier but it would have been nice to just see his full character even if not really used for his skills.

Jarvis
In the comics Edwin Jarvis is Tony’s butler. He actually plays a pretty cool role in the avengers and so on. In the movies as you know he is just an AI for Tony’s house and suits. Now do they really need Edwin in the movies? Not really, it’s not that big of a deal. However it could have been very easy to make him exist just not be alive. In the first Iron Man when pepper tells the reporter “That’s Jarvis he runs the house” She simply could have said “Tony named him after his childhood butler”. There you go, Tony needs an AI, why not name him after his butler? Obviously it isn’t very needed, if they don’t want Edwin in the movies you don’t really need to reference him.

The death of Bucky
In the comics Baron Zemo kills Bucky (Spoiler Alert: Before he’s revived), in the movies it’s done by a Hydra Agent. Now I think this is a necessary change unless they made Baron Zemo the Villain in the movie. To cram in another very important villain (who I think deserves a movie against cap like the skull) along with the red skull, and an origins story. It added an emotional sense in the movie and it doesn’t really matter that much how he dies, especially if he (Spoiler Alert) becomes the Winter Soldier.

Thor and Hawkeye Costumes

Thor didn’t drift far from his costume. He had the helmet in his movie, he just didn’t use it. He has the red cape; he just doesn’t have that much Gold or Blue on his suit. There are a lot of points in the comics where his uniform does look more like it do in the movies, and I think it was a good change. Was it necessary? Not really, but it wasn’t a painful change and it looks pretty cool now. Hawkeye had a MASSIVE change. He lost 90% of the purple, and the purple he did have was closer to maroon. It dulled him down a little but now he looks like an agent. Think about it, what the heck kind of an agent (He is a SHIELD agent and there’s not a lot of other ways to make him work in the movies) wears a Purple suit? It wouldn’t be practical. Now maybe they could have given him a little bit more of purple. Maybe his gloves, or some purple shades, but I think this change was almost necessary. It’s not normal for an agent to wear a very showy costume that will be pointless in a battle (in fact horrible for a stealth scene). Do I like the Hawkeye Costume? Yeah but it’s a tad crazy. Captain America didn’t change his, but he asked for his, Hawkeye doesn’t ask for stuff like that.

Now to the big one. The Mandarin and Cold blood.

Cold Blood in the comics is just an assassin. The change they make is that he’s an Extremes… Thing… To me he’s a small enough character that they can do whatever they want with him. If you don’t like the storyline they made then that’s the change you need to talk about. Now I won’t tell the Mandarin or the Adrian Killian spoilers. If you’ve seen the movie then you’ll know what I’m talking about. Now the Mandarin was seen as racist by Marvel. I disagree but I’m not a producer, they also did show a version of him at the end, he had the tats and such but not the rings. Now I don’t think it was necessary what they did, nor do I think it was good. It’s more now to look at if the damage hurts the big picture. If you accept the movie for what it is, it’s a good movie. It has a good plot and has good action. Having no Mandarin in my opinion doesn’t hurt anything. Iron Man is done with solo’s they say, and let’s be honest we are ready for Dr. Strange or Black Panther movies. The Mandarin vs. Iron Man is useless without his solo movies. So in the big scheme of things, it doesn’t really hurt if they ruin 1 villain. He was for 1 movie, and he didn’t look good. Oh well, there are thousands of other stories we can do and this one change doesn’t hurt us much other than we don’t get to see him the way we like him.

Iron Patriot

In the comic Norman Osborn is the Iron Patriot. Seeing as though Marvel doesn’t own him, and the story line would probably never be made anyway, it’s not that big of a deal to just give him a paint job.

Radioactive Man

They had Chen Lu in the movie but not as radioactive man. No comment because we never know if he will turn into radioactive man later in movies.

Ultron Origins.

We don’t know what’s going to happen in this origins but it never says that Hank won’t make Ultron. Maybe he has the AI and Avenger: AoU only shows Tony building the actual robot? Maybe Tony does build the whole thing which I don’t like. But it’s the origins, Ant Man can be successful in a solo movie against egg head, and since Tony has been in 4 movies now it would be a little more sad if he screwed something up then a guy who is only been in the movie universe for a half hour. Speculation and such, we don’t know what will happen. But I’m trusting that Joss can make it good any way.

How do we know none of these changes have ruined the universe? Maybe because two of the films are in the top 5 highest grossing films of all time, and maybe because just giving the name “Age of Ultron” to a film has caused more talk than DC announcing they are making a Man of Steel and Dark knight movie! That movie sounds AMAZING but we are getting more talk on a title of a movie that has 3 more movies before it. The show will go on and I have faith Marvel will stay close enough to the comics to continue to stay successful. Thanks for reading the long story, I hope new people have learned some of the changes, and those familiar with them have found a new perspective to look at.
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Orphix
Orphix - 7/24/2013, 8:57 AM
I have always maintained that I am a film fan first and a comic book fan second. As a result I want - need even - filmakers to take risks. To take chances and get creative. Expand on what we think we already know about the world they have created.

Source material is SOURCE and should be treated as such. CBM's are so pervasive in film culture now that they constitute their own genre and like other film genres they need to express and grow and be relevant by examining what is going on in our world today. That can only happen with change. The whole reason many of these characters we love are so timeless is exactly because they change and evolve.

Getting offended by the fact that Hank Pym doesn't create Ultron, or that the Mandarin is a genius businessman is a luxury only comic book fans who know their comic book lore can afford. The rest of the audience want to be entertained and lose themselves in the story, to watch a great film.

When it comes to the MCU and Marvel Studios the only source material they should remain faithful to is the one it has created in the MCU.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 7/24/2013, 9:22 AM
Hawkeye's costume in the movie is from the Ultimates...before he started wearing that crazy full face mask and using guns.

If its acceptable to use Ultimate Nick Fury then it should be acceptable to use Ultimate Hawkeye.

sikwon
sikwon - 7/24/2013, 9:26 AM
I have yet to have any real problem with MCU changes, most of yhem fit. Whats important is the movie continuity. They are starting to tie the movies and comics together a bit and thats awesome. What really matters is that they maintain the cinematic continuity they have created, keep building that universe, those storys and those characters. For me the Mandarin is a perfect example, i could care less about the character. Or hank pym for that matter but the role pym will eventualy play in the cinematic universe, i do care about.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 9:51 AM
Orphix. I agree with you, I am a HUGE movie fan, I enjoy them more than the comics themselves. I don't like changes though. I don't know why, I guess I just want to see the comics literally played in front of me. And in all honesty, the MCU has actually stuck to the comics more than any other movies i've seen. Iron Man 3 is really the only one where they made changes to multiple characters. Mandarin/Adrain/Coldblood/firepower. I ddin't like it but in all honesty a great movie.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 9:51 AM
Agreed @Corndog
fortycals
fortycals - 7/24/2013, 10:52 AM
My problem with marvel isn't sticking to the source, because I want them to be different.from the books. My problem is marvel changing the source to fit the movies. Or people who think marvel sticks to the source any more than any other studio. People love to bring up the ultimate/616 mix all of the time, but forget that the ultimate uni was supposed to be updated and more modern version. Then turn around and bash other studios for trying to do the same thing.

I would like to hear you thoughts on some of the other source material "rape" as some would call it. How do you feel about the donald blake/thor thing, or the founding avengers roster, or fury putting together the avengers, or the hulk origin differences, or the bucky changes.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 12:20 PM

@fortycals

Personally I think they have stuck to the source pretty well. Donald blake Isn't a needed story for the movies if that's what your referring to. In fact it would be very very hard to do with little pay off. The had the ester egg and I think that's about all they need. The way I look at the avengers roster is that it has changed so many times I don't really think it matters who starts it. I would have liked the original, but to try and kick it off with the more... unknown super heroes I guess you could call them would be hard. The general public doesn't know Ant Man or Wasp, but just about everyone knows Thor, Hulk, Captain, and Iron man. What do you mean by the origin differences? Just specifically? When talking about Bucky, are you referring to his arm? Almost forgot, Fury putting together the Avengers. Again I think it would have been hard not to have an agency put them together. It would have almost seemed stupid if nobody brought them together in some way, and Fury was a perfect way to tie them in. If I could come up with a way to have them join that would make more sense then I would, but the original ways just don't seem legitimate enough.
AverageDrafter
AverageDrafter - 7/24/2013, 12:56 PM
It seems to me most they are basing most of MCU on the Ultimate universe, not 616.

In this light, the lack of Pym seems significantly less important, and the idea of Stark creating an army of Ultrons so he doesn't have to suit up seems in keeping with the end of IM3.

Ok, so lets say Tony uses his brain patterns for the Ultrons' AI. Being an ego-maniacs, these guys aren't going to like that there are an army of them around, and one rogue Ultron is going to kill off or subjugate the rest.

Being that it has the brain pattern of "The Mechanic", its a natural step to see it improve its capabilities beyond its original design - much like Tony constantly improves his suits.

Then it goes after the only other entity with its brain pattern and therefore its nearest equal and main threat to existence - Tony Stark.

The combination of Tony's genius inside of a computer brain means his capabilities will outstrip Tony's very quickly - hence the need for the team up.

No Pym, in keeping with the current continuity, and related to the Ultimate origins of Ultron.

No troubles bubbles.
RobGrizzly
RobGrizzly - 7/24/2013, 1:03 PM
@Orphix:
Amazingly said. On principle i agree completely. But I do believe in honoring the source material. Not slavishly or anything, but when it comes to fundamental, basic stuff. If they can stay true to ideas, thematic elements, that love is what makes things endure. Not just change.

As for the article, not bad. None of these changes bothered me, but I must acknowledge the egregious unecessarity of whatever they tried to pull with Mandarin. The Bin Laden-esque change was fine enough, and actually kind of cool. Then they made it a joke and blew it. When a hero's #1 villain is turned into a punchline, as filmmakers, you're not honoring anything.
Creativity is great, but not at the expense of insulting the fanbase.
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 7/24/2013, 1:04 PM
Chen Lu wasn't in Iron man 3. He was rumored to be, but its not him. If they had Jarvis as an actual person, it would of been compared to Bruce Waynes Alfred too much, so I was ok with that one. I do agree with you that they could of at least referenced a real Jarvis from Tonys past. I'm ok with some changes, as long as they don't go to far. I was angry about the Mandarin at first, but I loved what they did with the movie. I read the spoiler before I watched the movie, so I was prepared. I do feel bad for the fans that weren't expecting that. I can only imagine how shocked I would of been if I didn't know.
tonytony
tonytony - 7/24/2013, 1:34 PM
In the real world. Ie superman batman team up is actually making headlines in normal newspapers around the world. So to say avengers 2 has caused more discussion is inaccurate and a pipe dream from a marvel fan boy. In the real world the superman batman team up is the single biggest news from a comic book stand point ever.

Secondly the reason marvel gets away with changes like in iron man 2 villain and iron man3 mandarin is because nobody really knows the characters so they can deviate from source material without being pulled up. The problem will come when they try and reboot the characters and those same people who havent read the comics but reckon they are experts on the characters courtesy of a few movies start kicking up a stink as in mos.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 1:39 PM
No, Chen Lu was at the start when they were looking back to the past, just an introduction and nothing more. Exactly, i don't think Jarvis would have worked well. Yeah i was very suprised. I have gotten over it an like the movie. My hope would be that Hank makes the AI, but SHIELD asks Tony to make the robot. They could easily just say "We have an AI, you know how to make the robot" and flashback it in the Ant Man Movie or something. Then it would be personal to both of them, and their would also be a future connection between the 2.
CapitanAmerika2
CapitanAmerika2 - 7/24/2013, 1:50 PM
@dougieisrollingthejays: What do you think about the changes made in the first Captain America movie: Red Skull being a HYDRA agent instead of just a simple Nazi, the main enemy being HYDRA in World War II instead of the Nazis, and no Invaders.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 2:03 PM
@tony. The reason they got away with IM2 is he wasn't a big villain. Unless you mean HAMMER, and even then their wasn't much of a change, just his age. And yes, you look around there have been WAY more talk about the "Age of Ultron" then the MoS Dark knight. I'm not saying anything about the movies being better at all. At all, i'm simply saying the Aou has caused more talk. Also the dark knight trilogy got away with way more changes than MCU has, Granted they wanted to make it realistic more than follow the comics. And believe me I loved it, i am far from a marvel fanboy. I hope to find enough interesting info to be able to talk about the new DC movie(s).

@rob totally agree, I don't think it hurts to much but they did ruin the mandarin.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 2:22 PM
I liked it. Here's the thing, we wanted HYDRA, we wanted the Red Skull. The RS is often in HYDRA, not quite the leader though. I do wish they would have had Strucker in there. It made me sad not to see him. But the Nazi's are done all the time. Not in comic movies, but you see so many Nazi movies, it wouldn't have been original enough in my opinion. That's why I liked HYDRA instead. Red Skull was a Nazi but pretty much cut himself off from them. In my opinion I just want to see them shown as the version they are usually in at least to start, then they can change what they want. Almost like Take the comics, and then after you've shown the original stuff, then change it up. Who knows, maybe Strucker will show up later though. Also the Invaders would have take to much to do. They would have needed more heroes like Namor in order to make it happen. So it was pretty much do that story line or do a straight Captain America Storyline. It seems like a lot of changes have been made, but most if them seem to be purely changes in the storyline, not changes in the character. Like maybe a different adaption in a character (Nick Fury not super soldier) but a change in a story is not fighting Nazi's. I tend to like changes in a story line... Its a movie you almost have to do so. But I don't like most changes in a character. At least Major like the Mandarin. however Nick Fury i did like (He is an ultimate though, I wish they would at least just have him be a super soldier for the heck of it).
tonytony
tonytony - 7/24/2013, 2:42 PM
@dougierooliethejay you are living in marvel fan boy land. I have been to non comic book websites and seen headlines on batman superman team up nothing on avengers tge truth is batman and superman are the two biggest superheroes on the planet and their union is news to even non comic book fand. Im sure within marvel geek-land avengers is discussed but the mainstream headline is batman superman. Also not surprised that people google ultron because nobody knows who the marvel characters are hence why they get away with so many creative liberties. They will propably have ultron created by iron man in movie but nobody within general audience will know and you will get marvel fanboys claiming once again that marvel stay true to source material.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 2:46 PM
@beto I suppose that's true. But even then, a lot of discussion on Ultron. A lot of that does have to do with Hank Pym though.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 2:51 PM
Ok maybe that is true that I havn't checked the "Main stream news" Or whatever. Maybe its just my luck that I have heard just as much. very debatable that they are the top 2 but its true that at least 1 of them are the highest one. funny you say that, because outside of super man and batman and maybe a few of the other JL guys, nobody seems to know anyone from DC. Don't turn this into a Marvel VS DC convo. I was simply saying there is a ton of talk from AoE.
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 7/24/2013, 3:07 PM
Ok I'm sorry, but he's credited as Dr Wu. Not Chen Lu. The guy at the beginning is the same guy that operates on Tonys heart at the end. I just want to help you understand that so it doesn't bother you any more. Chen Lu was a nuclear physicist in the comics. Doesnt mean anything in the films, hopefully we can still get the actual Radioactive Man!
marvel72
marvel72 - 7/24/2013, 3:38 PM
mandarin twist is the only thing that pissed me off.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 6:25 PM
Iron man is pretty darn close to being with superman batman and spiderman. I'd at least put him in the 2 area. He's HUGE now thanks to the movies being a lot about him. I think I agree with most of the rest, I'd have Charles X in there as well. And what about martian manhunter?
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/24/2013, 6:29 PM
I see, thanks for the correction. All this time I thought it was Lu not Wu. Thats actually good news now. Marvel, I agree. Most of them are pretty much minor changes. Kind of to just the story, not real big. I think the biggest was the mandarin and I didn't really like it but I can see why they did it I guess. Nick Fury isn't really needed to be a super soldier, just a change in the story. At least they are doing him. Coldblood isn't very popular anyway. Jarvis would have been nice for just a reference but oh well. Other than all those their havn't been really any major changes to anyone in the universe.
fatcobra
fatcobra - 7/24/2013, 6:53 PM
Actually, Marvel released a tie-in comic called Prelude to the Avengers that was supposed to fill in some of the gaps in the movies (like whatever happened to the Leader), and in one of those they had a flashback to a young Howard Stark when Tony was a boy that showed that Jarvis was indeed his childhood butler. Actually knowing this makes it a bit more heartwarming that he named his A.I. after him, as he was probably more of a father figure to Tony than Howard ever was.
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 7/24/2013, 6:57 PM
And thank you for taking that info, and not getting crazy like other people can get when their criticised. INTERNET HIGH FIVE!!!
Superheromoviefan
Superheromoviefan - 7/25/2013, 2:32 AM
The Mandarin sucks. I can accept the rest.
NBAfanaddict
NBAfanaddict - 7/25/2013, 5:15 AM
If Iron Man 3 had been just another movie with the same plot, but instead of a superhero film it was a spy film, it would get lauded for it creativity in surprising the audience by having the big supposed villain turn out to be a bait and switch. That's always the rub with CBMs: Accuracy for accuracy sake, or tweak it (well some would say demolish) for storytelling purposes.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/25/2013, 5:22 AM
@NBA Exactly. It was actually very well done twist. Only thing is it ruined the Mandarin...
fortycals
fortycals - 7/25/2013, 7:02 AM
@ dougie
Don't get me wrong those changes I mentioned don't really bother me except the swapping pym&janet for Natasha&clint, and that's only a little. I just don't think most people realize how much ms changed from the source, when they bash other companies for doing the same thing. Then they throw up the ultimate/616 mix, when the ultimate line was trying to do the same thing these studios do which is update the characters. I just wanted to hear your veiws on the subjects.

The difference in hulk's origin is in the glossed over movie version it was just your typical mad scientist type accident. In the books hulk was made by bruce saving rick jones life during the gamma test. Its a small difference on the outside but a big difference on the inside. In the comic version he became the hulk by being a hero saving a kids life, the movie version it was potrayed as science experiment gone wrong. This is all about a minute explaination in the movie so no big deal, it just changing the core reason the accident happened.

The buckey differences are many, from age and build to how they met.e They revamped the whole character for stories sake and realism. Imo it was a good move, and it worked.

The reason the founding avengers changes bothered me was primarily pym. I understand all the reasons why, but I'm a Pym fan and a little biased. Even after seeing the movie, I couldn't help imagining pym wrangling leviathans. Its someone that's been rumored to be making his way to the big screen for a while now, and personally can't wait.
GinjaNinja
GinjaNinja - 7/25/2013, 9:41 AM
@forty I think they tried to go more along the origins story that they had for the old TV Show. They had the same chair thing they had in the show. Buckey I think was a good change around. The story wouldn't have really fit with his original story. Lastly, I to wish they would have had Ant Man. But let's be honest he deserves his own movie, and throwing him in as a side character would have been lame (and wasp also). And trying to get his own movie probably would have failed. Not because he's not good but because it would have been hard to get him out there. Thor, cap and the Hulk all Barely made it and people already knew about them. Ant man is even less known then them. So it would have been hard to do. I do agree I wish he could have been in it with wasp. They should have done a movie for him in phase 2 so he could join in AoU. But oh well he will be great in the 3rd one at least.

@Beto I agree, the mandarin was supid of them. But the way I look at it is they showed him horribly, but the movie was still a good movie if you get past that. And the Mandarin would probably have only been in 1 movie anyway. So I think I'm ok with it.
Blastaar
Blastaar - 7/26/2013, 7:52 AM
Like most have said, I'd rather Hank Pym and Tony have a hand in Ultron's creation. I just would like for Ultron to consider Hank his father because maybe Hank was the first human that Ultron sees when he is created. When the changes are unnecessary, they just need to stay true to the source comics as close "as possible" because the general audience won't know the difference anyway but the fans would. There IS a way to please fans AND the general audience.
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