Everyone Is Missing The Message Behind JOKER: FOLIE A DEUX

Everyone Is Missing The Message Behind JOKER: FOLIE A DEUX

Many reviewers and moviegoers have said Joker 2 has nothing to say, but the message behind the movie is hidden beneath lots of irony and singing.

Editorial Opinion
By ChandlerMcniel - Nov 20, 2024 11:11 AM EST
Filed Under: Joker

I’ve seen many reviews of Joker: Folie A Deux that say the same thing: it has nothing to say. Whatever your thoughts are on the movie, claiming that the movie has no message or is not making a statement is blatantly wrong. Maybe you just missed the message, and that’s fine as it was hidden behind layers of irony and musical numbers. 

***Spoilers for Joker: Folie A Deux below.***

Before we dive into the message of the movie, I want to state my thoughts on the movie as a whole. There were parts I thought really worked and parts I felt fell completely flat. The musical numbers felt strange and awkward even when the message of the movie is considered. The scene in which Arthur is dragged into the showers and raped by the guards was disturbing and unnecessary to the plot. I actually really liked the ending, but I know most people hated it. Overall, it’s hard for me to say I liked or disliked the movie. It’s a bit of both.

I think what makes me like the movie is actually the message behind it. Todd Phillips created what I consider to be a masterpiece with Joker, perfectly profiling the American mass shooter and criticizing the healthcare system at the same time lightly within a comic book setting. It’s one of my favorite movies of all time.

However, it apparently brought out the wrong response in some people. I have not personally ever encountered these people, even online, but I’ve read about men who identify with Arthur. I understand feeling sympathetic for Arthur as he starts as a very sympathetic character, but one should not identify with this person. I think that reaction to the first Joker movie is the entire reason why Joker: Folie A Deux was made. Todd Phillips had stated he intended Joker to be a solo movie before its release, but anything that makes money is bound to have a sequel with an overinflated budget. Phillips used that budget to respond to anyone who identified with Arthur Fleck, but expanded that even more. 

In the sequel, Phillips targeted anyone who identified with Arthur Fleck by creating an environment in which the character decides that he is a victim of terrible circumstances, yes, but ultimately is responsible for the horrible things he did in the first movie. Did Arthur need to be raped and witness a murder of a young man for no reason to make that decision? Definitely not, but that’s not the point of this article. Arthur came to terms with who he was through an existential crisis taking personal accountability, something the people who identify with Joker seemingly do not do, and declared he was not even Joker.

However, that’s not all. After Phillips came for the aforementioned niche group of people, he came for everyone else, and he did that through Lady Gaga’s character, Lee Quinzel.

Throughout the entire movie, Lee is trying to get Arthur to adopt the Joker persona. She somehow manages to pay her way into Arthur’s cell when he’s in solitary confinement and tells him to stop taking his medicine, she talks up Joker to reporters in the courthouse, and she tells him to be Joker when he defends himself. Then, when Arthur declares he actually isn’t Joker and is just Arthur, she leaves. 

Just like Lee, we all wanted to see The Joker. We wanted to see Arthur, a man who has been abused throughout his childhood, forgotten by the healthcare system, abandoned by any friends he makes, and mocked on national television, lose his mind entirely and go wild. That’s what we went to the theater for, right? We want some action! We want some blood! We want some terror! We want The Joker! When we don’t get that, we’re shocked, we’re angered. In fact, some of us even get up and leave the theater just like Lee leaves Arthur. Just like Lee, we don’t want Arthur, we want Joker.

Shame on us, Todd Phillips says. How terrible it is for us to want to see this poor man become even worse. Why would we want to see a human being broken down so much that he becomes a villain? Is our infatuation with villainy as an audience healthy, or is it a sign of a larger problem when people all get together and collectively pay a billion dollars to root for one of the most terrifying characters ever conceived? 

Essentially, the message is this: a big, huge, vertical middle finger to anyone who liked the first movie. 

To be clear, I’m not saying this message is good. I’m not saying it’s creative or well conveyed even. It certainly isn’t a moneymaker, but that’s also the point. I will say it takes guts to make a sequel in which the original movie is torn to shreds intentionally. I certainly find the message interesting and the symbolism of Lee Quinzel well crafted, but it is definitely easy to miss behind the layers of irony, upsetting plot points, and odd musical numbers.

What do you think of Joker 2 and its message? Let me know in the comments!

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Urubrodi
Urubrodi - 11/20/2024, 11:02 AM
Sending a msg should never come before entertainment and when your msg is meant to trigger the audience that supported the original movie, then they got what they deserved (pun intended).
Matchesz
Matchesz - 11/20/2024, 11:11 AM
@Urubrodi - Ever since the Harvey Weinstein scandal feminism and Gaga have been shoved down our throats like we were the ones that did it
TheLobster
TheLobster - 11/20/2024, 11:14 AM
@Matchesz - Lady Gaga is a great actor though. The issue is solely with the script.
Matchesz
Matchesz - 11/20/2024, 11:38 AM
@TheLobster - the role of Lee was written specifically with Lady Gaga in mind

“The role of Harleen Quinzel/Harley Quinn, played by Lady Gaga in Joker: Folie à Deux (Joker 2), was reportedly envisioned with her in mind from the start. Director Todd Phillips and the film’s creative team wanted Lady Gaga not only for her acting talents but also for her musical abilities, given the film’s part-musical format.”
Urubrodi
Urubrodi - 11/20/2024, 11:43 AM
@Matchesz - It might have been written with her in mind, but that doesn't mean that it was written well. Not even the best of actors would be able to turn a bad script good.
DocSpock
DocSpock - 11/20/2024, 11:44 AM
@Matchesz -

I heard you did it!
Matchesz
Matchesz - 11/20/2024, 11:58 AM
@DocSpock -
You’re next
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cubrn
cubrn - 11/20/2024, 12:30 PM
@Urubrodi - plenty of great movies made us feel rather than be entertained. Were you entertained by Schindler’s List?
FrankenDad
FrankenDad - 11/20/2024, 12:37 PM
@Matchesz - Gaga can shove herself down my throat any time.
Matchesz
Matchesz - 11/20/2024, 12:49 PM
@Urubrodi - I take it as if she said no to playing the part then the movie would have never even happened. Or the script would have turned out completely different with just Fleck.
DocSpock
DocSpock - 11/20/2024, 1:04 PM
@Matchesz -

Guess I walked right into that.

Urubrodi
Urubrodi - 11/20/2024, 1:25 PM
@cubrn - ok, maybe I should have used the word engaged instead of entertained but I think it was quite clear what I meant, if the sole purpose of a movie is to send a msg imo it failed from the start
DrDReturns
DrDReturns - 11/20/2024, 10:03 PM
@Matchesz - Spagett and the Quest for the Golden Treasure
LordGanja
LordGanja - 11/21/2024, 4:25 AM
@Urubrodi - I thought the original was way over praised, similiar to Black Panther. Decent movies which were suddenly masterpieces.
This one looks likea self-indulgent director who believed his own bullshit - Hollywood is littered with them.
Praising shite jizz-stain films => look I'm cleverer than you cos I get the secret hidden message.
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 11/20/2024, 11:13 AM
A well-written piece which raises some good points. I don't think the movie has nothing to say, I simply don't think it went about saying it in a compelling or interesting way. I'm not even sure Phillips has contempt for people who liked the first one, it felt more like a response to those who rallied against it for nonsensical reasons.

Either way, it just wasn't very good, imo.
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 11/20/2024, 11:37 AM
@MarkCassidy - yeah, it's nice to have more different writers on here. Chandler's on a roll as of late.

And yeah, it does feel like a response to those who rallied against it, but also to those rallying behind it imo.
ChandlerMcniel
ChandlerMcniel - 11/20/2024, 2:57 PM
@bkmeijer1 - Glad to hear it! I really enjoy writing editorials. Feel free to follow my instagram to know when a new editorial drops. I'll be writing for the sister site GameFragger as well.
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 11/20/2024, 4:26 PM
@ChandlerMcniel - just checked it. Cool to see you write other stuff like books too. You're a new addition to the Best Little Sister sites team, or just the occasional editorial writer like me?
ChandlerMcniel
ChandlerMcniel - 11/20/2024, 7:15 PM
@bkmeijer1 - I'm hoping to be part of the team eventually. I love to write and I love to be paid to write even more
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 11/21/2024, 2:34 AM
@ChandlerMcniel - I get that. Writing is fun, but unfortunately I only have so much time I can spend on it
TheLobster
TheLobster - 11/20/2024, 11:16 AM
If anything, I take solace in seeing Warner Bros. losing a shit ton of money since they blindly backed up the dump truck full of cash without even knowing what they were greenlighting since the first one made a billion.

They deserve this. [frick]ing idiots.
Retribution13
Retribution13 - 11/20/2024, 11:17 AM
Whoa.....this means nothing.
roboticJohnson
roboticJohnson - 11/20/2024, 11:22 AM
I don't think Lee represents every fan, I think she only represents the fans who identified with arthur in the first movie. She says that she was crazy and her childhood was like his, but in reality she grew up rich and got herself in arkham only to meet him, just like everyone who saw the first movie, ignored the message about mistreatment of mentally ill people and went "he's literally me" when in reality, no john, you have a normal life and are a bit of an a-hole sometimes, you're not like him. Even the "did you really watch my movie 20 times?" " more like 4 or 5" feels like a jab at them. She shows us that fans only cared about this story because it had Joker as the title, but we wouldn't have cared about it otherwise and only want to see him "suit up". Plus arthur fleck never had criminal connections, a knowledge of chemical weapons or even a batman to fight, how is it so many people were expecting him to become like the comics Joker? How would that have been possible?
ChandlerMcniel
ChandlerMcniel - 11/20/2024, 2:56 PM
@roboticJohnson - I think she represents that part of the fanbase and the people who wanted to see Arthur turn into the actual Joker, but not every single member of the audience.
HistoryofMatt
HistoryofMatt - 11/20/2024, 11:24 AM
No, I'm pretty sure we got it, dude. You expecting us to like a crap movie because the director was angry that "all the wrong people" liked his original film because you agree with his bizarre take is quite the look.
LogansRazor
LogansRazor - 11/20/2024, 1:25 PM
@HistoryofMatt - i didn't watch it, didn't catch my attention (loved first one), but it does seem any time it is brought up, everyone says it is a "middle finger to the fans." So agreed....it seems like the majority of the people understood this movie. Very well written article tho 👏.
ChandlerMcniel
ChandlerMcniel - 11/20/2024, 7:13 PM
@HistoryofMatt - You definitely don't have to like the movie. I don't think I can say I liked the movie either. I'm not even arguing the message is a good message. Just that people seem to miss it.
Tpo81
Tpo81 - 11/20/2024, 11:30 AM
It's not that deep. Why do we need to look for some message in a terrible sequel? He wanted to do a musical comic book movie like he was on broadway. And he thought that was a good idea, it clearly wasn't. The end
DarthAlgar
DarthAlgar - 11/20/2024, 11:30 AM
The movie was basically a subtle "fu** you" from Todd Phillips.
HistoryofMatt
HistoryofMatt - 11/20/2024, 12:48 PM
@DarthAlgar - Subtle???

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mountainman
mountainman - 11/20/2024, 11:31 AM
People understood that message, but that message was why so many people disliked it. Anyone who gives a middle finger to their customers will fail. This is just basic business.
CaptainTriip
CaptainTriip - 11/20/2024, 12:35 PM
@mountainman - OR, films are art and not everyone making a film is trying to please a customer. This being your understanding of things is probably why you’re so angry at film directors and such.
mountainman
mountainman - 11/20/2024, 12:40 PM
@CaptainTriip - Not angry at all. I skipped the movie, so they didn’t make any money from me. Like a whole lot of other people.

As a consumer, I vote with my wallet. When a company tells me they don’t want my business I don’t give it to them.

Not sure why freedom of choice bothers you so much.
ObserverIO
ObserverIO - 11/20/2024, 2:38 PM
@CaptainTriip - Studio produced movies are a commercial enterprise.

They are both art and commerce.

But in arguing the virtues of cinema as art, I wouldn't cite Joker 2 as an example, lol. That's just empty commerce all the way. Had it been more artistic it might have made more money, ironically, since that is how they were selling this franchise as some kind 'manufactured art for the tasteless masses'.
McMurdo
McMurdo - 11/20/2024, 5:24 PM
@CaptainTriip - you lost me at Joker 2 as art
TheJok3r
TheJok3r - 11/20/2024, 11:32 AM
No we're not, the movie is just shit.
GiverOfInfo
GiverOfInfo - 11/20/2024, 11:32 AM
The message behind it was "eff you audience," which I believe everyone got loud and clear. This movie was an utter dumpster fire.
CaptainTriip
CaptainTriip - 11/20/2024, 12:34 PM
@GiverOfInfo - are you always triggered by the intentions of people who direct movies? This may be a sign of a bigger issue.
HistoryofMatt
HistoryofMatt - 11/20/2024, 1:03 PM
@CaptainTriip - Why is freedom of choice so triggering to you?
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 11/20/2024, 11:35 AM
"a big, huge, vertical middle finger to anyone who liked the first movie"

That seems appropriate. Tarantino said it right that this is directed by the Joker and is one big fuсk you to Hollywood and to the audience.

But really, everyone missed it because nobody watched it right?
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