COMICS: First Look At FANTASTIC FOUR #609 And THE INCREDIBLE HULK #12

Hulk was sick as [frick], until Silvestri left, which was issue #2...

I believe he lost it from a nuclear explosion (seriously). These fights are totally senseless since we know the outcome.

Hulk looks better with hair!

"Looks like a chemo patient" really a F**king chemo patient, the things people say I will never understand but if you've seen a chemo patient you wouldn't be saying such a f**king thing.

Hulk is bald? Galactus is dead? black panther is a popular character? Spiderman and the spider totem? and the X-Men i...i dont even know where to begin. so much has changed a lot in comics since i stopped reading...i am so glad i did.
i understand with "new blood comes new ideas" but that dosent mean they are good ideas. change isn't always good.

I DO NOT LIKE KOJACK HULK.

@blackflash chill

Time Travel...never a good idea.

on the BALD Hulk..i gotta agree. give his HAIR back!!! for me, it's just not the same. a bald look only makes him look like an ULTIMATE version of him or somethin'.

I have been a chemo patient, and I take no offense to the "Hulk looks like a Chemo patient" jokes.
What DOES offend me is Pacheco's art.
Yes he can draw better than I can, but that is why I'm not an artist.
Pacheco's Hulk looks like a coloring book. Flat. Boring. No emotion. No flare. No style.
Please, Marvel...PLEASE...just give the Hulk a decent story line, and more importantly, a decent artist.

im sorry hulk looks dreadful without hair

That Hulk cover is freakin amazing!

So, when is the Hulk doing his entrance into Avengers vs X-Men ? The real Hulk.

@cgrass5150 - You and I my friend could easily sit down with a beer and detail all the ways we've seen Marvel dismantle the once, great Thing! I have been complaining about it for a long time. When you really look back and read older stories you see that so many MU characters have been buffed, bolstered, re-tooled, and over powered! This left Thing in the lurch.

For a very long time the Thing has been used (since he was once very popular) as a whipping boy to introduce new characters and re-vitalize old ones. As in "If (insert character name) can defeat the powerful Thing..." You get it, show someone beating Thing to a craggy pulp and that character gets instant credibility and increased sales.

The backlash is that now Thing is a joke. He's the lampoon and yuks to all Marvel battles. A now, mid-powered, former champ, who has been relegated to the B-team so Marvel can sell a few more copies of The Mort Of The Month. (Old Wizard Magazine Reference).

You are right on target to understand that Marvel must bring Thing's abilities up to speed with the other characters they've systematically over powered. This guy was/is a bad ass, as testament I offer you many examples from the pre-computer generated art days. It's a shame to see him in a white, honey comb, unitard, cracking one liners before his inevitable and all too predictable ass kicking. This is no way to treat an icon who helped make Marvel a household name.

mugwamp@ isn't thing far more powerful than he use to be, he has become 100 tonner, and i hold high respect for the Thing but he is not as strong as juggernaut or the HUlk

@Mugwamp and the rest of us beaten-n-bruised Ben Grimm fans:

Hmmm...frosty cold ones and a heart-to-heart about how the Marvel bullpen needs to revamp Aunt Petunia's favorite nephew sounds like a plan my man. Look me up next time you're in the Bug...oops...I mean Big Apple. Visions of MTIO #86 dance in my head.

Seriously, I'm glad some fans responded to my post. Hopefully more will voice their discontent to the point where somebody with sway at Marvel finally takes notice and makes several overdue "Thing" (and "FF") upgrades.

I've been a "Thing" and "FF" comic collector since 1975 (beginning at the ripe age of 8). Although this doesn't qualify me as an expert, I think it does give me the bona fide credibility to say that Marvel "jumped the shark" with both linchpins ages ago and still hasn't recovered.

Fans of "The Thing" and "FF" are familiar with the never-ending problems regarding contemporary handling of these once great characters. For the benefit of the uninitiated, I'll reiterate some of the more prominent ones:

Problem 1: Ben Grimm is/was an ex American footballer & WW II hero/vet. I read long ago that experiences in both developed him into a skilled fighter. So..."Thing's" supposed to have fighting moves right? Wrong...from day one Marvel seldom, if ever, depicted this skill in a fight and has portrayed him as basically a barroom, back-alley brawler.

Problem 2: Whatever happened to those claims (in print Marvelites!) that the more time Ben spends as "Thing" the stronger he gets. In short, the older Ben gets and longer the exposure to cosmic rays, the stronger he becomes. According to my real-time, fuzzy math, Ben's been "The Thing" for almost 50 years. Shouldn't he be well over a Class 100 powerhouse in all categories by now and able to singularly beat loads of A-listers like Hulk?

Problem 3: King Kirby modeled "Thing's" personality and back story loosely after himself. He also gave him 4 fingers and sense of humor to lighten up the atmosphere of those classic Lee/Kirby collaborations. A great idea that worked from the 60's until the early 80's. However, considering all the domestic and international political, socio-economic, environmental, racial, religious, and terrorist disasters we've endured since, Ben's "goofball persona" needs to change with the times.

Problem 4: OK...we get it...Popularity + Sales = Money. That's why Marvel fans are constantly deluged by a gazillion Wolverine, X-Men, Avengers, Spidey titles and tie-ins. So...how did the aforementioned get so popular? Marvel frequently updates them by making them edgy, gritty, introspective, conflicted, butt-kickers. Remember the halcyon days of the 80's and 90's when Hulk and Thor fell to B-listers and Iron Man was boot-jetting rapidly to C-lister? What saved these characters (and others) from oblivion is that they were changed to reflect modern times and deal with realistic problems. This was something Marvel did regularly with their mainstay titles from the 60's through the mid 80's (with skill and success). For whatever reasons, since the late 80's, Marvel has forgotten to apply this blueprint to "The Thing" and "FF" thereby negating their "cool-factor" and leaving them out of gas and stranded in the Marvel U.

Problem 5: Any self-respecting "Thing" and "FF" fan has read "FF" #51 "This Man...This Monster!" If you haven't, do so without further delay. Marvel needs to revisit this issue to recall how much depth this character has. "Thing" IS NOT a joke...he's a walking, talking, thinking tragedy constantly at odds with emotions over his monstrous appearance. Not only is best friend, Reed Richards, partially responsible for his predicament, but he's been emotionally gutted repeatedly over the years (Remember when he lost Alicia to Johnny?; How about all those failed cures?; Being ostracized and experiencing prejudice b/c of his "unique" appearance and religion?; Plus, "Thing's" hide and strength prevent him from the joys of human touch and being able to use most simple objects, etc., etc.).

Perhaps Marvel's current crop of writers are either too smart or stupid to remember that at one time or another most of us (including themselves) have experienced some degree of insecurity/self-doubt, heartbreak, tragedy, prejudice, or loss. Marvel's demographic of readers and moviegoers can absolutely relate and connect in some way to "Thing's" emotional dilemmas. C'mon Marvel bullpen...this is the same proven formula that helped make Spidey and X-Men legendary. How about the same treatment for poor ol' Ben Grimm.

Problem 6: Nowadays, "Thing" can't decisively beat any of Marvel's A-listers (good or bad). Consequently, we're stuck with a lame hero that has zero fan interest or respect. Hence, "Thing" and "FF's" dwindling fan base. Sadly, Marvel writers continue "missing the mark" with this wonderful character and team that helped put them on the map.

Problem 7: Not including the 60's, 70's, or part of the 80's, "Thing" and "FF" has been and is now crap. Yes...there has been some recent promise thanks to Millar, Hitch, Neary, Currie, Smith, Hickman, Eaglesham, Edwards, Mounts, and Eptig, but none of them have been able to consistently incorporate ALL the elements that made "The Thing" and "FF" great reads. Frankly, it's like all the heart, guts, edge, action, conflict, turmoil, drama, and emotion has been lost in the Negative Zone.

Solution 1: Presently, the U.S. of A is a powder keg full of unemployed, broke, underpaid, paranoid, stressed-out, unhealthy, pissed-off people crazily mixed in with a dose of nouveau riche, free lovin,' environmental and spiritually conscious, gluten-free, pee-wee hipsters (basically...it's the 60's & 70's all over again folks). So...make "The Thing" and "FF" as confounded, confused, and frustrated as the rest of us. Give them a hefty serving of realistic, earthly problems to struggle with and their popularity (along with their comics and collectibles sales, movie budgets, and scripts) should improve.

Solution 2: "Thing" needs a major power, strength, durability, and fighting skill overhaul plus street and galactic-spanning credibility RIGHT NOW. By his lonesome, without ANY assist, "Thing" MUST beat (including getting the last punch) several of Marvel's notable heavy hitters. I'm talking REAL bruisers like: A-Bomb, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Annihilus, Ares, Attuma, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Blastaar, Blob, Caiera Oldstrong, Colossus, Destroyer, Doc Doom, Doc Samson, Dragon Man, Executioner, Gabriel, Giant-Man, Gorgon, Hercules, Hulk, Hyperion, Iron Man, Juggernaut, Luke Cage, Mahkizmo, Man-Thing, Ms. Marvel, Orka, Red She-Hulk, Rhino, Rockslide, Rogue, Ronan, Rulk, Sabretooth, Sandman, Sasquatch, Sentry, She-Hulk, Silver Surfer, Skaar, Sphinx, Sub Mariner, Super Skrull, Terrax, The Champion, Thor, Thundra, Tiger Shark, Titania, Ulik, Ultron, Vision, Wendigo, Wolverine, and Wonder Man.

OK...Hercules, Sentry, Silver Surfer, and Thor are a reach but why the heck can't "Thing," hand-to-hand, fight any of them to a draw? I didn't include Hulk in the aforementioned b/c it's high time for Marvel to "give the dog a bone" and let "Thing" cut loose and take down Hulk fair and square.

Solution 3: Regarding "FF," ditch the whole Imaginaut, geeky, cutesy, techno-family-dynamic drivel for a while. Also, enough with the endless universes, time streams, alternate realities, and techno-babble. "FF" has gotten so predictable that every reader knows Reed (for the umpteenth time) will save the day with a silly gadget or mind-numbing computation. Back in the day, the "FF" found solutions to problems collectively and won as a TEAM. Each character had an integral role and contributed toward the overall outcome (good or bad). For far too long "FF" has been Reed-centric with "Thing" and "Torch" providing idiotic comic relief and the Invisible Woman more invisible than ever.

Solution 4: Plant the "FF's" feet firmly back on terra firma for a healthy serving of modern earth problems. Given the sad state of economy, I'm sure there's at least one super-villain in the Marvel U hard up for cold cash, itchin' to bust into a bank. Marvel bullpen, try to remember this acronym next time you sit down to write a "Thing" or "FF" story...K.I.S.S. Translation: Keep It Simple Stupid. Where is it written that an "FF" story must constantly bludgeon its readers to death with bombastic, confounding, sci-fi-techno-laced, over-the-top galactic, time-stream ending disasters? Sheesh...reign it in a bit fellas. Why not a "down-to-earth" all-out monster attack by the Mole Man to take over the world's resources, or the Frightful Four pulling a simple bank heist, or Hulk going on a good ol' rage-induced rampage in Manhattan, or Subby venting on us wasteful, destructive surface-dwellers. Readers might stay awake for a change to find out how the story ends or maybe come back for more helpings of "FF" comics.
Solution 5: By rights many of you will think...Dude...if you can do better put up or shut up. My response is simple. I'm a long-time, diehard fan of both, educated, with an excellent career in Speech/Language Pathology, and have decent writing skills. I'm certain I could or some other fan could crank out at least one more fun and enjoyable "Thing" and/or "FF" story compared to the boring garbage we've been spending our hard-earned dollars on to read. So...if Marvel is willing and has the guts, give me or another worthy "Thing" and "FF" fan a chance to prove we can do better and hopefully get you guys back on track.

Whew...more than nuff' said!!!

My revised rant:

@Mugwamp and the rest of us battered-n-bruised Ben Grimm fans:

Hmmm...frosty cold ones and a heart-to-heart about how the Marvel bullpen needs to revamp Aunt Petunia's favorite nephew sounds like a plan my man. Look me up next time you're in the Bug...oops...I mean Big Apple. Visions of MTIO #86 dance in my head.

Seriously, I'm glad some fans responded to my post. Hopefully more will voice their discontent to the point where somebody with sway at Marvel finally takes notice and makes several overdue "Thing" (and "FF") upgrades.

I've been a "Thing" and "FF" comic collector since 1975 (beginning at the ripe age of 8). Although this doesn't qualify me as an expert, I think it does give me the bona fide credibility to say that Marvel "jumped the shark" with both linchpins ages ago and still hasn't recovered.

Fans of "The Thing" and "FF" are familiar with the never-ending problems regarding contemporary handling of these once great characters. For the benefit of the uninitiated, I'll reiterate some of the more prominent ones:

Problem 1: Ben Grimm is/was an ex American footballer & WW II hero/vet. I read long ago that experiences in both developed him into a skilled fighter. So..."Thing's" supposed to have fighting moves right? Wrong...from day one Marvel seldom, if ever, depicted this skill in a fight and has portrayed him as basically a barroom, back-alley brawler.

Problem 2: Whatever happened to those claims (in print Marvelites!) that the more time Ben spends as "Thing" the stronger he gets. In short, the older Ben gets and longer the exposure to cosmic rays, the stronger he becomes. According to my real-time, fuzzy math, Ben's been "The Thing" for almost 50 years. Shouldn't he be over a Class 100 Ton powerhouse (in all categories) by now and able to singularly beat loads of A-listers like Hulk?

Problem 3: King Kirby modeled "Thing's" personality and back story loosely after himself. He also gave him 4 fingers and sense of humor to lighten up the atmosphere of those classic Lee/Kirby collaborations. A great idea that worked from the 60's until the early 80's. However, considering all the domestic and international political, socio-economic, environmental, racial, religious, and terrorist disasters we've endured since, Ben's "goofball persona" needs to change with the times.

Problem 4: OK...we get it...Popularity + Sales = Money. That's why Marvel fans are constantly deluged by a gazillion Wolverine, X-Men, Avengers, Spidey titles and tie-ins. So...how did the aforementioned get so popular? Marvel frequently updates them by making them edgy, gritty, introspective, conflicted, butt-kickers. Remember the halcyon days of the 80's and 90's when Hulk and Thor fell to B-listers and Iron Man was boot-jetting rapidly to C-lister? What saved these characters (and others) from oblivion is that they were changed to reflect modern times and deal with realistic problems. This was something Marvel did regularly with their mainstay titles from the 60's through the mid 80's (with skill and success). For whatever reasons, since the late 80's, Marvel has forgotten to apply this blueprint to "The Thing" and "FF" thereby negating their "cool-factor" and leaving them out of gas and stranded in the Marvel U.

Problem 5: Any self-respecting "Thing" and "FF" fan has read "FF" #51 "This Man...This Monster!" If you haven't, do so without further delay. Marvel needs to revisit this issue to recall how much depth this character has. "Thing" IS NOT a joke...he's a walking, talking, thinking tragedy constantly at odds with emotions over his monstrous appearance. Not only is best friend, Reed Richards, partially responsible for his predicament, but he's been emotionally gutted repeatedly over the years (Remember when he lost Alicia to Johnny?; How about all those failed cures?; Being ostracized and experiencing prejudice b/c of his "unique" appearance and religion?; Plus, "Thing's" hide and strength prevent him from the joys of human touch and being able to use most simple objects, etc., etc.).

Perhaps Marvel's current crop of writers are either too smart or stupid to remember that at one time or another most of us (including themselves) have experienced some degree of insecurity/self-doubt, heartbreak, tragedy, prejudice, or loss. Marvel's demographic of readers and moviegoers can absolutely relate and connect in some way to "Thing's" emotional dilemmas. C'mon Marvel bullpen...this is the same proven formula that helped make Spidey and X-Men legendary. How about the same treatment for poor ol' Ben Grimm.

Problem 6: Nowadays, "Thing" can't decisively beat any of Marvel's A-listers (good or bad). Consequently, we're stuck with a lame hero that has zero fan interest or respect. Hence, "Thing" and "FF's" dwindling fan base. Sadly, Marvel writers continue "missing the mark" with this wonderful character and team that helped put them on the map.

Problem 7: Not including the 60's, 70's, or part of the 80's, "Thing" and "FF" has been and is now crap. Yes...there has been some recent promise thanks to Millar, Hitch, Neary, Currie, Smith, Hickman, Eaglesham, Edwards, Mounts, and Eptig, but none of them have been able to consistently incorporate ALL the elements that made "The Thing" and "FF" great reads. Frankly, it's like all the heart, guts, edge, action, conflict, turmoil, drama, and emotion has been lost in the Negative Zone.

Solution 1: Presently, the U.S. of A is a powder keg full of unemployed, broke, underpaid, paranoid, stressed-out, unhealthy, pissed-off people crazily mixed in with a dose of nouveau riche, free lovin,' environmental and spiritually conscious, gluten-free, pee-wee hipsters (basically...it's the 60's & 70's all over again folks). So...make "The Thing" and "FF" as confounded, confused, and frustrated as the rest of us. Give them a hefty serving of realistic, earthly problems to struggle with and their popularity (along with their comics and collectibles sales, movie budgets, and scripts) should improve.

Solution 2: "Thing" needs a major power, strength, durability, and fighting skill overhaul plus street and galactic-spanning credibility RIGHT NOW. By his lonesome, without ANY assist, "Thing" MUST beat (including getting the last punch) several of Marvel's notable heavy hitters. I'm talking REAL bruisers like:
A-Bomb, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Ajax, Annihilus, Anti-Venom, Apocalypse, Ares, Arkon, Atlas, Attuma, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Blackheart, Blastaar, Blob, Caiera Oldstrong, Capt. Axis, Capt. Marvel,
Champion, Colossus, Deathlok, Destroyer, Doc Doom, Doc Samson, Dragon Man, Executioner, Gabriel,
Ghost Rider, Giant-Man, Gladiator, Gorgon, Griffin, Hercules, Hulk, Hyperion, Iron Man, Juggernaut, Kurse, Luke Cage, Mahkizmo, Mangog, Man-Thing, Morg, Ms. Marvel, Orka, Quasar, Red She-Hulk, Reptyl Prime, Rhino, Rockslide, Rogue, Ronan, Rulk, Sabretooth, Sandman, Sasquatch, Sentry, She-Hulk, Silver Surfer, Skaar, Sphinx, Sub Mariner, Super Skrull, Terminus, Terrax, Thanos, Thor, Thundra, Tiger Shark, Titania, Ulik, Ultron, Venom, Vision, Wendigo, Wolverine, Wonder Man, and Wrecker.

OK...Hercules, Sentry, Silver Surfer, and Thor are a reach but why the heck can't an enraged "Thing," hand-to-hand, fight any of them to a draw? I didn't include Hulk in the aforementioned b/c it's time for Marvel to "give the dog a bone" and let "Thing" cut loose and take down Hulk fair and square.

Solution 3: Regarding "FF," ditch the whole Imaginaut, techno-geeky, cutesy-family-dynamic drivel. Also, enough with the endless universes, time streams, and alternate realities. Cosmically speaking, "FF" has gone pillar to post and gotten so predictable that every reader knows Reed (for the umpteenth time) will save the day with a silly gadget or mind-numbing computation. Way back, the "FF" found solutions to problems collectively, fought, won, and sometimes suffered as a TEAM. Each character had an integral role and contributed toward the overall outcome (good or bad). For far too long "FF" has been Reed-centric with "Thing" and "Torch" providing idiotic comic relief and the Invisible Woman more invisible than ever.

Solution 4: Plant the "FF's" feet firmly back on terra firma for a healthy serving of modern earth problems. Given the sad state of economy, I'm sure there's at least one super-villain in the Marvel U hard up for cold cash, itchin' to bust into a bank. Marvel bullpen, try to remember this acronym next time you sit down to write a "Thing" or "FF" story...K.I.S.S. Translation: Keep It Simple Stupid. Where is it written that an "FF" story must constantly bludgeon its readers to death with bombastic, confounding, sci-fi-techno-laced, over-the-top galactic, time-stream ending disasters? Sheesh...reign it in a bit fellas. Why not a "down-to-earth" all-out monster attack by the Mole Man to take over the world's resources, or the Frightful Four pulling a simple bank heist, or Hulk going on a good ol' rage-induced rampage in Manhattan, or Subby venting on us wasteful, destructive surface-dwellers. Readers might stay awake for a change to find out how the story ends or maybe come back for more helpings of "FF" comics.

Solution 5: Covers always have and always will whet one's appetite and sell comics. "FF" covers were more dynamic, wondrous, thought-provoking, and fun up until the mid 80's. Nowadays they're bland. Bring back those ominous dialogue bubbles on the covers that made fans want to read a comic. Is Marvel afraid of crushing some poor artist's delicate sensibilities by returning to this format? Boo hoo...Give us a break!

Solution 6: Where-o-where has the long lost "Splash Page" gone to? Older "FF" issues (and other major titles) often had awesome splash pages. There was nothing cooler than seeing a picture of "Thing," blown-up and spread out over 1 or 2 interior pages, taking out a major league opponent with a haymaker.

Solution 7: By rights many of you will think...Dude...if you can do better put up or shut up. My response is simple. I'm a long-time, diehard fan of both, educated, with an excellent career in Speech/Language Pathology, and have decent writing skills. I'm certain I could or some other fan could crank out at least one more fun and enjoyable "Thing" and/or "FF" story compared to the boring garbage we've been spending our hard-earned dollars on to read. So...if Marvel is willing and has the guts, give me or another worthy "Thing" and "FF" fan a chance to prove we can do better and hopefully get you guys back on track.

Closing Thoughts: Long ago "The Thing" was widely known for being a powerful, selfless, loyal, dedicated, forgiving, passionate, introspective, unflappable bad-ass in the Marvel U. He's suffered the indignities of being a "Rodney Dangerfield" punching bag for too long. The Marvel bullpen needs to fix the mess known as "The Thing" and "FF" and elevate them once more to true "HERO" status and firmly place them forever upon the alter of comic book legends. Fans want it and we deserve it. Otherwise, we should spend our "dead presidents" elsewhere.

Whew...more than nuff' said!!!

@cgrass - Great read, and I agree!

@TheAcidSkull - If you go to the Marvel website Thing is still listed as a strength level 6 officially, which puts him in the class 85 range as always. Unless they have changed the rating scale? I have not seen any evidence in the official MU though.

I agree though that at times he has been up and down from class 100 to 85. They just can't seem to stick to it. And more often than not he's getting knocked around by characters that he shouldn't. This gets confusing for us. Keep in mind, this is a guy that knocked out Terrax (Herald of Galactus) in a giant size cross over with Superman! Let's see some more of that Thing!

@Acid - This was never really about could he beat the Hulk. I concede that Hulk is stronger and does not tire as quickly as the Thing. But old school readers will remember that most of their fights gave the advantage of battle to the Thing until he was just worn down by Hulk. He always put up a great fight which made them fun to read.

The modern Thing doesn't have anyone's respect and when he fights the Hulk it's laughable. Because he's getting chumped on a regular basis by B teamers. Those classic match ups just don't compare anymore when you have a Hulk who can hold up a planet! For goodness sake man, what's next a galaxy? The point is all the heroes and villains in the MU have gotten beefed up and over powered and the Thing has remained the same. Even though by Marvel admission should get stronger as he goes along due to more cosmic ray exposure. A trickle effect if you will.

He has just been relegated to someone who is a heavy hitter but clearly the low end of what heavy means. Even in the recent films, the only feats of strength they gave to the Thing was to jump through a brick wall, lift a pick-up truck, and a ferris wheel...Ohhh! what a monster! Look, it's about respect. He had it, and now it's gone. Many people love the character from memory but not because he's been allowed to be a key player in the last decade.