Religious Heroes

Religious Heroes

Should our super heroes be more religious?

Editorial Opinion
By thoarnejones - Apr 26, 2013 09:04 PM EST
Filed Under: Comics
Source: comicbookmovie.com

I saw an article on comicvine.com, and someone brought up the topic of religion. It got me thinking on the super heroes who are religious. This article isn't solely purposed to express my views but to ignite a HEALTHY DISCUSSION on the matter. In X2 it was used to good effect with Nightcrawler. Used to inspire storm. And after reading God Loves Man Kills the comic that inspired X2 it kinda makes me wonder what could have been if Stryker had still been a Reverend.

And in Daredevil it was a nice change of pace to see a super hero to to a church. With great comic effect with the Priest disliking Matt's costume. It added much depth to Matt's character in my opinion. The fact he believes he isn't truly fighting on his own strength. But that God is backing him.

Could exploring religious beliefs for our favorite super heroes be something worth going into? Of course in a tasteful way. Now before commenting think of this Captain America and Iron Man. One believes in God...one doesn't. Does that affect their view if heroism? Till next time. :)

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tomr
tomr - 4/26/2013, 9:44 PM
No thanks.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/26/2013, 10:05 PM
I didn't mean throwing it in faces my fault. But using it to.advance character progression. Yes Daredevil is Catholic. Showing the good and bad sides of what religion can cause people to.do. like in God Loves Man.Kills. William Stryker believed that all mutants are children of the devil. Interesting idea to explore.
TheSuperguy
TheSuperguy - 4/26/2013, 10:42 PM
I'm fine with religious heroes. Some heroes have religion as an important part of their origin. Spawn, Ghost Rider, etc. As long as the writers don't throw it in the face of the reader, I'm fine with it. In fact, I prefer it with some characters.
superherofan21
superherofan21 - 4/26/2013, 11:04 PM
@JokerFan Isn't Thor (and the rest of Asgard) pretty much portrayed more as aliens than as gods in the comics? I mean, yes, they are inspired by the mythology of Norse gods, but I don't think they're really gods. I can still see why Cap and Tony would have their views even after they've met Thor.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 4/26/2013, 11:16 PM
Religion is in all superhero movies, and that statement clearly contradict another comment I have made on a smimilar article not so long ago.

Religion is what connects us all, wether or not you take part in it. Forget all those stories about water-walking guy and Noah the Ark Builder, the only message in religion was a message of love.

So whenever you see a superhero in a movie saving someone (like Cap and that blonde girl in Avengers) or caring for someone, it's really a small part of religion. Religion is what links us all, it's not about the bible bullshit-stories. The love and conscience we all have within ourselves is what connects us.
SteveBosell
SteveBosell - 4/26/2013, 11:19 PM
I'm LDS. Maybe one day there'll be an LDS superhero.
As for the article, I have no problem with religion being mentioned or discussed in comics. Unfortunately, in today's multimedia, most mention of religion is approached with skepticism and negativity.
SteveBosell
SteveBosell - 4/26/2013, 11:38 PM
@OrgasmicPotatoe I think you have morality and philosophy mixed up with religion. Religion is more than good feelings. It is a structured system of belief. Its like how so many people today call America a democracy. While America has democratic processes, democracy alone does not define America's government and principles. It is an oversimplification that ends up devaluing the actual government system that America employs (a Constitutional Republic). Likewise, religion is more than love and conscience. There is the Spirit and the Law. This is present in all major religions.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 4/26/2013, 11:50 PM
No. Religion has no place in superhero movies, politics, and just about anything else. Keep it to yourself, don't push your beliefs on anyone. As long as you aren't hurting anyone or breaking the law do what you please. Religion doesn't make you a good person, nor does not believing in the bible or any other form of religion make you a bad person. All religion does is divide people.
koolaidbag
koolaidbag - 4/27/2013, 12:19 AM
I mean I understand where you are coming from, I mean almost every hero in marvel specifically has some belief, there is a website that has been approved by marvel, and Stan Lee himself that is devoted to informing what religion the heroes are, but I can't recall the name of the website. Anyhow I feel that the presents of religion is 100% ok, but for it to become a major focus for all heroes would be a bad call. I don't mean to say I think that is the case for all heroes though, characters like daredevil, and nightcrawler are fine having more religious story points, but it would be unnecessary for that to be the case for all, though I do like that each character has there own beliefs, it would take await for each to have a focus on them, for example deadpool is a lapsed catholic, and while he holds some morals of it, it wouldn't be fun for him to repent everytime he killed someone...you know what I mean.
Xandera
Xandera - 4/27/2013, 1:54 AM
Both examples that you mentioned prove that, in the right context, religion can add a lot to a character's profile. However, there is always the fine line that nobody wants to cross or even go near. Religion is something that writers need to handle with a lot of discretion. The last thing anyone wants is for a character/movie to get preachy.
GuardianDevil
GuardianDevil - 4/27/2013, 2:44 AM
No leave it out unless it's necessary to the story. Like with some characters religion is an essential part of the storyline like Thor, Moon Knight, Daredevil, etc. but as for the others just leave it on the side...

Religion separates people, superheroes bring then together. Which is why I'd say leave religion out unless it's absolutely necessary to the character. (Daredevil, Moon Knight, etc.)
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 4/27/2013, 3:21 AM
Religion is definitely a divisive topic.

Consider that as we think of how to incorporate beliefs into characters. Will readers appreciate it? How many, what percentage? And how many will flat out dismiss it? While the comments above aren't a true reflection of the comic book reading population, they should serve as a good indicator.

Marxman12 pointed out the very obvious lack of LDS heroes. My opinion on that matter won't be heard, but I'm going to point to a book that I was inspired to read by the hit BBC series, Sherlock: "A Study in Scarlet". The episode based upon the classic 19th century novel is actually quite accurate until it reaches the villainous territory, where our killer is a completely different person.

In the book, this man had courted the adopted daughter of a settler, who was saved by Mormons. When news of this non-Mormon's engagement went around, Brigham Young paid the father a visit, warning him that it is against their beliefs to marry outside their circle. Failure to fall in line with these beliefs meant "disappearing". The would-be groom had to tread lightly, and eventually managed to get the father and daughter out to the mountains before they were abducted. So our "antagonist" is actually something of a failed anti-hero who swore revenge against the people who took his bride and would-be father in law.

Obviously, that's demonizing to Mormons, something that's been acknowledged by Doyle himself. Point is, you can't make everyone happy.

My mother is a teacher at a private charter school, which still falls under the code of the county. During graduation, an invocation is expected to be held, however, her students are made up of Catholics, Muslims, Baptists, non-denominational Christians, Jews, Mormons, Atheists, and Agnostics. Last year, an evangelical minister took the stage and testified.... needless to say, people were unhappy.

Comics reflect real life. I think religion should be incorporated appropriately, but not have an overbearing presence.
minusman
minusman - 4/27/2013, 3:49 AM
Religion can certainly add depth to a character.
I am not all that familiar with Nightcrawler, so I am not sure how he is portrayed in the comics in regards to religion, but I really enjoyed how X2 made Catholicism part of who he is.

As long as our heroes dont become preachy, whether its religion, politics, sexuality, etc, I think its fine to explore their beliefs. It can only add depth and strength to their character.

thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 4:06 AM
Well I guess you'd have to define the word preachy. Cause for some it just be the very mention of whatever belief system someone has. Especially if the character were to emotionally break down in one scene. Saying what he believes. While I wouldn't consider that preachy someone else might read to much into it.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 4:25 AM
I think one of the reasons people don't want something like religion involved in coming comics is because its to real for them. They don't like the idea of having to question what they believe. Cause then for some people they'd have to admit they have no foundation no basis for believing what they do.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 4:26 AM
Now that's controversial. Lolol
unknownfacts
unknownfacts - 4/27/2013, 6:21 AM
To me religion just like sexual orientation and/or transgender is not a big deal they're just fictional characters.I respect all people's life choices,but other find that it adds depth to a character that other wise would have little to no appeal to them.Some on the other hand find that it detracts from the characters appeal.It's all a matter of what people believe in and how sensitive they are about their beliefs.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 8:26 AM
If it's done like AvX then cool.
Minato
Minato - 4/27/2013, 9:01 AM
Great topic for debate : )
I agree with most her that its ok as long as there are limitations.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 9:24 AM
@Intruder Its a funny line considering Joss Wheadon is Atheist. Which he says in the commentary.
CPIXLEY
CPIXLEY - 4/27/2013, 10:20 AM
[frick] no.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 4/27/2013, 11:23 AM
@Marxman Religion is made of philosophy and morals.

Let me make this clear, I do not follow any kind of cult based around philosophies and morals. I'm not more an atheist than a christian, i'm neither, I don't need religious stories to bring out the good in me, I already know it's in there and I can use it.

But what happened with religion over history is wrong. People read the Bible, and believed that a man litterally walked on water, and put aside all the messages of love in the stories. Then it was modified over the years to serve the King's purpose (whoever was King at the times), but that's a whole other story.

They took the fiction for reality and the reality of these stories were thrown away. So that's why I say that religion does not have to do with Ark building and Water-walking. It has to do with the messages that were lost in time, to favor the stories of retribution and violence.

In latin, "ligare" means "to connect". With the prefix "re-", it means "to reconnect". Religion is really about all those little things, insignificant as they might be, that can connect us all. You know, there is one thing that connects every human beings on the planet together, and it is love. That's why no one can relate to a guy that has healing powers and walks on water, but we can all relate to a person who is feeling love for someone, because we know what it is, because we all have it. Simple.

If it's not about philosophies and morals, then the only other thing it can be about is what is litterally told in these stories. Don't even get me started on the irrationalities and impossibilities of religious stories.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 11:53 AM
@OrgasmicPotatoe Please get started. I would honestly like to hear what you have to say.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 4/27/2013, 12:26 PM
@Thoarnejones If you need me to explain to you why hares and tortoises do not race around the forest, or how come one man knew all how to build that giant [frick]ing ark and had all the materials needed to build it, it's not me who has some explaining to do.

Use your common sense, you should come up with something similar to what I came up with.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 1:24 PM
@orgasmicpotatoe Well in the Genesis account it lays out step by step what Noah was suppose to do. In other words God gave him the instructions. I was trying to be nice. Maybe you should do some research on a topic before you call it silly. I don't believe in blind faith. So any argument I have is because I have a solid basis for believing it. Just saying "I believe this" and leave it at that is stupid to me. As I'm sure you can understand.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 1:31 PM
@orgasmicpotatoe I almost forgot. Its not religion that binds us all together. It love...as lame as it may sound. Lolol
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 4/27/2013, 2:33 PM
@Thoarnejones Exact ! Love binds us all together ! You got it !

God is a metaphor for the unknown. They couldn't figure out a way to make it believable that a guy in this era was able to build it all by himself, so they added an incorruptible aspect. Something that can explain everything, as long as you buy it.

The thing is no one can build this kind of thing with the means of that time. Today, it takes tons of calculus and precision to build a simple stairway. How many calculus do you think it takes to build a giant Ark to carry every male and female animals, plus the food they'll need to survive 150 days ? Go merely told him the dimensions of the Ark in cubits, told him it was to have a window, a door, and 3 levels. That is not even nearly enough.

Also i'd like to know how he could get the animals from the other continents ? He built another ship to go and find them and bring them back to the Ark ? How did he keep predation from happening in his boat ? The lions and gazelles simply got along ? The cats didn't eat any rodents ? Plus, such a drastic change in the fish's environnement is bound to modify the water pressure and oxygen abundance in their environnement. Then, after 150 days it went back to normal, which means another change in their environnement. Now i've spent a year and a half studying animals in their environnement, and let me tell you you don't change something as important as this without losing a couple fishes. So Noah couldn't save them all.

Then, when the water magially got away... that's true, we never got that water back, where the hell did it go ? Is it possible that the water cycle story we were told in school is false ? So yeah, the water magically got away, and then, they landed on Mount Ararat. To travel the simplest road on Mount Ararat, you need an axe and crampons. Now, even if Noah had them, I don't think the giraffes were big on following him. Or the rhinoceros. Or the gorillas. Maybe the mountain goat was happy that day.

Then they got back on the ground, safe and sound, right ?. Except for one thing. Where did all the vegation go ? Oh, true, it was killed by being constantly submerged for 150 days ! Needless to say the herbivorous got screwed, and if the herbivorous couldn't eat, they died, and without herbivourous, what are the other animals going to eat ?

The point is, when someone starts asking these kind of questions, when someone is starting to question the plausibility of these stories, one can only find a lack of answers.

BUT

If you take Noah's story, and instead of buying the image it presents, you think of the message, the overall value of the story, it becomes something else entierly. It becomes a story about a man who cherished life and did the impossible to save as much lives as possible, and that's the message ! Life is precious, life is good, take care of life, and save it if you must ! Now that's the kind of story I like to believe, and AGAIN, that's something we ALL have in ourselves.

I chose Noah's Ark's story because it is one where I can understand better the consequences these events have on the animal life and environnement, as I stated earlier. Try it yourself, take whichever story that seems odd to you, find the oddities in it, and most probably it will end up making no sense at all. That's when you have to search elsewhere. Don't search in the images of the story for the truth, search in the meaning of the story itself.

AND I AIN'T EVEN SORRY FOR THE LONG POST !
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 4/27/2013, 2:39 PM
Just gonna chime in here... the average Catholic believes Noah's Ark is a load of bull.

Doesn't affect any part of their faith in God - it's just real life.
Wikan
Wikan - 4/27/2013, 3:14 PM
uh no. if god loves man kills is that x-men 2-parter it sucks
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 4:43 PM
@orgasmicpotatoe so basically you broke the story down for the sole purpose of trying to prove it wrong. Now if I did the same thing to the evolution theory I'd have an even better argument than yours. But you make some valid points. Which means I must do some research.
thoarnejones
thoarnejones - 4/27/2013, 4:46 PM
Good conversation guys. This is great.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 4/27/2013, 5:31 PM
@thoarjones Well, I wouldn't say it like that. My goal was not to determine if the story was right or wrong, true or false, but more to shift the focus from "Noah built an Ark" to "what was the real motivation behind this ?". With fear of sounding like I'm repeating myself, i'll say it again, the motivation must have come from the love of life.

I'll try another example, nothing from the Bible this time.

These are the lyrics to a verse of "Time" by Pink Floyd

"Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home, cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire"

You can substitute the image of "home" by anything that makes you feel good, feel comfortable, something you love.

Let's say Noah is a metaphorical representation of the love of life, what would make him feel home, what would he describe as feeling comfortable ? Exercising his love for life and saving countless lives from a certain death by drowning comes to mind. He "warms his bones beside the fire" by feeling the accomplishment of what he just did.

I 100% agree on your last comment, though. I'm having trouble understanding how such a respectful debate over religious beliefs can go so well when you remember that we are on the same website that started the Shailene Woodley stupid flame war.
superpower76
superpower76 - 4/27/2013, 5:39 PM
Like everything, religion can be used for good or bad.

Heck if enough people gave "authority" to superman and his ideals then just like Hitler I could justify burning people because superman does it.

Just like Hitler I could ignore context and truth of why Supes was heat blasting zod. All that matters is that my prey know that the "authority" does it and so can I.

Too think less of religion because of the atrocities carried out in its name misses one of the points of religion. No man is "good" and because of this it is only logical that the wolf would disguise himself as a lamb then slaughter the sheep in righteousness.

Religion/guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Soooo. As many have pointed out, religion is already in some comics. So sure its fine.

superpower76
superpower76 - 4/27/2013, 6:23 PM
Orgasmic,

Your analogies for love are great. But love can be far to subjective of a term. In the end it is love that binds us but heck my ex wife told me she loved me all the time. Lmao

As for Noah I would say that if anything was to be built it would have been a society founded on freedom and justice to protect that freedom.

In fact I think metaphors were intentionally used because somehow even thousands of years ago people knew that literal words lose their meaning.

Go back a few hundred years and a person from today wouldn't be very effective at communication. But with a metaphor a tale becomes timeless. It only take the proper perspective to see the truth.

I find typing on this topic to be quite ineffective so sorry if I just rambled.

scootaloo
scootaloo - 4/27/2013, 8:16 PM
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