Marvel vs. Ed Norton: The Big Picture

Marvel vs. Ed Norton: The Big Picture

The recent announcement that Marvel Studios' not bringing Edward Norton back for future Hulk movies seems to have enraged many CBM fans to the point of turning green themselves. But there's more to this story than you might realize.

Editorial Opinion
By SkylerMystwood - Jul 11, 2010 12:07 PM EST
Filed Under: Hulk

I've been a viewer of this site for many years, and this is my first editorial. Having worked in television and film my entire life, (albeit not in any Hollywood blockbusters or anything even close) I do understand how movies are made. Also, being a huge CBM fanboy since I was a kid, I also see why fans get upset over recasting of their favorite actors by "cruel and ignorant" studios.

Thus, I will try to bridge the gap between Marvel/Disney and the huge numbers of fans who are seemingly enraged by the recent decision not to bring Ed Norton back as Bruce Banner in “The Avengers,” or future Hulk movies.

First, a little history: ten years ago, Marvel Entertainment was on the brink of bankruptcy. In a desperate attempt to save the company from going under, Avi Arad began making deals with Hollywood studios by offering them the rights to some of their most well-known characters as motion picture properties. The first was Blade, sold to New Line Cinemas and starring Wesley Snipes. It was a hit. New Line made a profit, green lighting two sequels. Marvel made pennies on the dollar, but it was enough to keep the company alive.

Marvel continued this practice, selling the rights to X-Men, Daredevil, and The Fantastic Four to Fox, The Hulk to Universal, and Spider-Man and Ghost Rider to Sony. The overall blockbuster success of Spider-Man, as well as the others, still only paid pittance to Marvel, but a small percentage of billions was enough to refuel Marvel. That's when Marvel decided to take a huge financial risk, and create their very own studio.

The gamble was simple. They went to the bank and offered them the rights to what remaining big name properties they still had control, (Captain America, Iron Man, Nick Fury, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, and others,) as collateral on a $500+ million loan. With that money, Marvel produced “Iron Man” starring recovering has-been Robert Downey Jr., and directed by Jon Faverau, who had very little directing experience, (Zathura, anyone?). The gamble paid off. Iron Man was a smash hit, and Marvel proved the power they had when they have complete control over their properties.

After Universal's controversial and lack-luster attempt with Ang Lee's “Hulk,” Marvel bought the rights back, and hired a big name, Edward Norton, to take the role. However, Norton had certain stipulations. He demanded to re-write the script, and wanted complete control over the film, including the final edit. When he didn't get his cut of the film, he caused a huge public stink, refusing to promote the movie and trashing Marvel every chance he got.

Although Louis Leterrier's version could've been better, I think most fans agree that it was a far better film than Ang Lee's version. However, it made no more money than the 2003 movie for Universal. Marvel, still with a huge debt to pay and little time to earn it, did the only thing they could do. They put their money behind their Iron Man franchise and continued towards their goal of unveiling first one, then two movies every summer. (Something their rivals, DC, would never have dreamed of doing.)

But Marvel's plan all along was more than just making comic book movies. Using the comics themselves as a guide, they wanted to be able to create an entire cinematic Marvel Universe, where characters from one movie can come and go freely in other films. Once again, they took a huge financial gamble. They hired Samuel L. Jackson in an unprecedented nine picture deal, and began using him, and others, as the starting point for "cross-over" moments.

Even before “Iron Man 2” was released, Marvel hired relative unknown Chris Hemsworth to play Thor, also locking him into a multi-picture contract. No doubt Chris Evans as Captain America has at least agreed to a multi-film deal, working for less per picture than he might have received otherwise. Other actors, big and small, have also been signed to multi-film deals, including Scarlett Johannson, Tom Hiddleston, and Clark Gregg. The goal isn't to just make “The Avengers” the biggest summer blockbuster ever, but to use it to launch spin-off films, as well as continuing with past films that have succeeded with sequels.

This brings us back to Ed Norton.



I like Ed Norton as an actor. I really do. Although I liked his Bruce Banner, I have to look at it from the studio's side. Norton didn't sign a multi-picture deal with Marvel. He demanded too much control over the movie, undermining both the director and the studio. He played cat-and-mouse games for years afterwards, saying things like "I'll return for ‘The Avengers’ if the fans sign a petition." This was nothing more than an attempt to strengthen his leverage against Marvel. Why leave your career up to the fans? If he wanted to continue as Bruce Banner, all he had to do was cut his rate, sign a multi-picture contract, and let the studio do what they do best: create their universe with you involved.

If he refused to play by the rules, he gets sent away from the playground. 'Nuff said.

With Marvel recently purchased by Disney, they have no doubt paid off their loan to the bank. There should be no fear of Marvel going under, or losing the rights to their remaining characters. As for the characters still lost in limbo at other studios, it is only a matter of time before each deadline is missed, and the rights revert back to Marvel. I have low expectations for Sony's Spider-Man reboot. When the day comes when Sony actually fails to make money off a Spider-Man movie, should that ever happen, a decade later we might just see Spider-Man joining Iron Man, Cap, Thor, and the rest in a future Marvel team-up movie. Same goes with all of Marvel's other lost properties. It's only a matter of time.

But Marvel's goal is a long-range one. Things don't end with “The Avengers” in 2012. In fact, they're only just beginning. Eventually all the actors who have signed multi-film contracts will fulfill their deals. Some will no doubt grow older, grow tired of playing the same characters, or just want to retire. Then, they will have to be recast. Recasting is inevitable. Iron Man is here to stay, no matter how long RDJ stays in the role.

But I, for one, support Marvel's initiative and brilliant risk-taking that is bringing us “The Avengers” in 2012. Perhaps, by 2013, DC will actually do what they should've done ten years ago, and get that Justice League movie going. Only time will tell.

Thanks to anyone who actually read this whole article. Feel free to sound off below.
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McLovin
McLovin - 7/11/2010, 12:25 PM
Brilliantly said. It is refreshing to hear someone who has knowledge of the industry who can put emotions and preferences aside and speak on the matter with objectivity. This is a great article and you've done a superb job enlightening us on what is likely what truly happened. I for one am very thankful for your contribution and I salute you Sir! Well done indeed!
RoscoeFolgers
RoscoeFolgers - 7/11/2010, 12:42 PM
I don't see the point in the "something DC would never dream of doing" part. It's easy to release two movies a summer when you wait 3 years to do it again with one movie in the 2 years between. I'd much rather see films take place in their own respective universes if it prevents turning one of their sequels with potential into a multi-million dollar short film accompanied by unnecessary advertisements for Justice League.

I wish them the best of luck with Thor, Captain America, Avengers, Iron Man 3, and whatever else they plan on doing. But I felt Iron Man 2 was a bit of a misstep seeing as they put setting up Avengers above telling the story of Stark, Rhodey, Pepper, Vanko, and Hammer.
marvelguy
marvelguy - 7/11/2010, 12:51 PM
Let me pick apart your article: just kidding. Everything you have written is obvious to me. People need to remember that money drives all things Hollywood.
I think you are only a little off on the properties returning to Marvel. I don't think the other companies will let them lapse, nor give up whatever residual income they generate. It will take Disney buying back Spider-Man and the X-Men, in order to see them possibly share screen time.
Say they do end up under one roof: I doubt you will see Spider-Man popping up in the other movies, nor the X-Men. I think it's too much of a gamble that people may feel they've already seen enough of a certain set of characters. If you have Spider-Man in a movie every summer, you risk people waiting either for his or deciding on which is the bigger and better choice.
In all, good job.
McLovin
McLovin - 7/11/2010, 12:52 PM
@ RoscoeFolgers - I would agree that I.M.2 was not as good as the first one, but it was still a good movie. Certainly better than X-Men 3, both FF movies, Wolverine, Catwoman or Superman Returns. DC is truly behind when it comes to delivering consistently good CBMs and if not for Batman, they'd have nothing as their claim to glory.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/11/2010, 1:04 PM
@ Mclovin - Thanks. This is my first article, and I know I'm touching on a sensitive subject for many.

@ RoscoeFolgers - I see your point about deluding IM2 with a lot of other characters, but for me, the fun of Marvel is, in many ways, in the cross-over events. And perhaps I was a bit hard on DC. Perhaps I should've said, "Something DC hasn't been able to do, until Marvel started showing them how it's done." I do give DC props for their animated features, however. They're schooling Marvel in animation the way Marvel has taken control of live action features.

@ Marvelguy - I know you're probably right, especially about Spider-man and X-Men, but a fellow can dream, can't he?
McLovin
McLovin - 7/11/2010, 1:28 PM
@ tea - you're absolutely right, it should be on the main page!
ThunderCougarFalconBird
ThunderCougarFalconBird - 7/11/2010, 1:43 PM
Wow! Simply, wow! You said what I have been thinking but with more flare and evidence to back up your words than I could ever hope to achieve! Tip of the cap to you sir.

I say Giovanni Ribisi could take over and even surpass what Norton gave us.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/11/2010, 1:52 PM
Thanks guys. I was actually supposed to get on the main page, but I hired Ed Norton to promote me. He did say he would do it, though, if you guys sign a petition first. ;)
McLovin
McLovin - 7/11/2010, 1:57 PM
@ SkylerMystwood - LMAO! You should have given him final editing rights over your article. Now all he will do for you is discredit you and call you names ;-)
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 7/11/2010, 2:39 PM
Very well written article. It gives a clearer picture of what might have happened. I still really wish they would been like "Ed here's the deal. Take it or leave it" If he was still difficult, then fine, but I wish he could have been in it. Still, it's ridiculous how people are like "Boycott the Avengers!" Please. They know they're going to see it anyway.
AverageCitizen99
AverageCitizen99 - 7/11/2010, 2:48 PM
Great first article/editorial! It's cool to hear this from someone who knows what goes on inside a studio or the filmmaking business. I was shocked at first and a tad disappointed by Ed's removal but it was partly his fault. For all the reasons you mentioned, any actor can be replaced. Ed was just being difficult towards the company and they had fears that he might pull a similar stunt had he continued to have been involved with Joss and the project.

I guess some people just find it hard to see another actor take-over for another in a role. There have been great actors who have given off great portrayals of characters and when word came that someone else was going to do it they didn't like the idea, but it happens. Not sure how this might affect a Hulk sequel, if there ever will be one after the Avengers is released. Thanks for doing this and you wrote very brilliantly, I'm jealous. ;)
Eviltwin
Eviltwin - 7/11/2010, 3:03 PM
Wow, great article Skyler!! To echo the rest of the group, this really should be on the main page. It would help all the little whiners understand things better.

I think it sucks that Norton isn't coming back because I liked him a lot in the movie. Do I think he was the best possible Banner ever? No. Could somebody else play the part equally as well or better. Yes, of course. I think more than anything it's overall a gripe about continuity, but, these things happen.
ROMACK
ROMACK - 7/11/2010, 3:37 PM
That's right on the money.

NORTON'S A TOOL!
fanboiii
fanboiii - 7/11/2010, 4:25 PM
Did Norton demand too much control? Or did Marvel go back on their word during editing? You forget that Marvel convinced him to star in the movie where he would have considerable input as writer-co-producer-star, but Marvel took the final cut.

I don't think this is the complete picture. You washed over what happened with The Incredible Hulk. True, Norton didn't know if he'd play Hulk again, but that's not because he was being indecisive. He didn't know because it wasn't clear what Marvel was thinking. Norton didn't know if he was going to play Hulk ever again after the Incredible Hulk, whether it's a sequel or the Avengers.

"To MTV News, the co-star of Liv Tyler fessed up that Marvel Studios have yet to give any sign that they want him [Norton] to return as the raging green beast. "

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00018342.html

So this was brewing well before The Avengers was being solidified.
WireySpindell
WireySpindell - 7/11/2010, 4:29 PM
SPOT ON.

Marvel has to follow their plan, and they don't have tons of wiggle room. If that includes Norton, AWESOME, but they're not going to break the bank and risk everything for the sake of continuity for an actor who would probably have 2-3 scenes max in the Avengers.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/11/2010, 4:33 PM
@ Fanboii - I agree with you 100%. The Incredible Hulk didn't make the money to justify a sequel, not to mention Norton was difficult to work with. It's no wonder they wanted to wait until The Avengers before discussing any chance of using Norton again.

Now, according to his own agent, Norton and Feige both wanted to work something out, but Norton couldn't settle for the money Marvel could offer him for what will no doubt prove to be a minor role, at best. With so many A-Listers in one movie, and considering that the Hulk will rob Norton of a lot (if not most) of his screen time, Marvel simply refused to pay him top dollar.

It's not like Marvel didn't try to negotiate with him. He just wasn't willing to drop his fee. Don't blame Marvel. Norton had his chance to be a part of movie history, but kept playing hard ball.
StuartGreen01
StuartGreen01 - 7/11/2010, 4:40 PM
Sorry, but you got one thing in your article wrong. Here's what you said:

"Although I liked his Bruce Banner, I have to look at it from the studio's side. Norton didn't sign a multi-picture deal with Marvel."

And here's what "The Incredible Hulk" producer Gale Anne Hurd said about Norton:
"It's all going to depend on the screenplay and where his character goes in any sequel, because he does have a multiple-picture deal," she said of Norton, who told us recently that he's waiting to hear from Marvel regarding Hulk's future. "[Norton's situation] is the same with every franchise like this, when you have one of the top actors of his generation."

I found that quote here, from a 2008 article on MTV:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1597802/20081023/story.jhtml

Norton WAS signed, but like Terence Howard, who was also signed on for a multi-picture deal when he signed on to play James Rhodes for "Iron Man", he didn't get to reprise the role in a future film.

I don't like that Edward Norton is not going to play Bruce Banner in "The Avengers", even if Banner's role may or may not be just a cameo. I really hope this doesn't go the way of the previous Batman franchise and we keep getting a new actor for the lead role with every sequel.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/11/2010, 4:56 PM
@ StuartGreen01 - Thanks for the info. I stand corrected on the "multi-picture" agreement. I guess what it all came down to was attitude and money, then. Thank you for your contribution.

I still think Marvel wanted Norton back, but Edward wasn't willing to drop his fee for the role. I can't blame Marvel for letting him go under the circumstances.
rookieprecsion
rookieprecsion - 7/11/2010, 5:20 PM
One other small correction. From you:

"He demanded too much control over the movie, undermining both the director and the studio."

Norton and Louis Leterrier, agreed to re-write the script together, anything that Norton put on paper Leterrier looked over before getting the final 'OK'. Even the studio agreed before any of that was done.

Post-production comes and almost every single scene that Norton had written was cut without him or Louis knowing. The only scene that they kept from him was the 'Mr. Blue, Mr. Green' scene.

In the end it almost seems the studio undermined Ed.
Hawksblueyes
Hawksblueyes - 7/11/2010, 6:05 PM
Very well said. fantastic article Skyler. :O
Ven0m
Ven0m - 7/11/2010, 8:28 PM
I really dont see the problem with an actor wanting to make sure the movie he is in done right and not just a yes boy. Also its about CONTINUITY! There is no [frick]ing reason why norton couldnt reprise his role. I understand its about money and ya we will have to recast eventually but its not necessary right now. [frick] MARVEL! Its all just about a stupid grudge... the end...
superbeast101
superbeast101 - 7/12/2010, 3:32 AM
Great Article. Even though I knew all that it was very informative. I like Norton as an actor and enjoy almost all movies he has been in. But to say I didn't think his turn as banner/hulk couldn't have been better would be a lie.
Also if he thinks he's bigger than marvel then he doesn't deserve to portray the character.
ROMACK
ROMACK - 7/12/2010, 10:11 AM
Norton's a TOOL!
HarpoSpoke
HarpoSpoke - 7/12/2010, 10:56 AM
One way to save money might be to....NOT CAST a Bruce Banner. Many issues of The Incredible Hulk didn't feature Banner at all and frankly that's perfectly fine.

The problem with casting a "name" actor is that you have to give him more screen time than you give to the Hulk. That's been the problem with live action Hulk from the very beginning (also counting the TV show).

This Avengers project is going to be hard enough to pull off without introducing a potential problem child into the mix who may engage in a power struggle over creative issues. Love Norton...but he's too risky for this.
Dartanian300
Dartanian300 - 7/12/2010, 12:26 PM
IDK. I like your points, but still. Are they just recasting him, or retconning the entire TIH? Either way, their job at creating ONE movie universe has not gone so well so far. I agree that eventually people will need to be recast, but that shouldn't happen until it's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY that they do. Like if the actor is too old or they die or something.

Personally, i just hate when ANY role in ANY movie is recast when it's supposed to be in the same continuity as the previous film.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/12/2010, 3:30 PM
I sincerely appreciate all comments, both those that agree and those that don't, with my opinion. Unlike some other threads on this subject, I'm happy to receive intelligent, well-thought out responses. I got a little tired of reading "[Frick] Marvel!" in the other threads. lol.

I will address one point made by several of you concerning Marvel low-balling the actors. I agree that this is very new in Hollywood. Many actors simply won't put up with it.

Terrance Howard reportedly made more money off Ironman than RDJ did. Although Terrance says he wasn't informed by Marvel that he was being recast, I can't speak to that. Much like the Norton/Feige deliberations, it's really all PR and "he said. They said."

So I dare not venture a guess into how negotiations were handled. Instead, I simply look at what both parties said. There were negotiations. They all wanted to get Norton back, and the big problem was money.

But before I would attack Kevin Feige, or boycott Marvel, I would also look at this fact: Marvel continuity has had two casualties. Terrance Howard and Ed Norton. But I doubt they played any differently with them than they did with Robert Downey Jr, Sam L. Jackson, Scarlett Johannson, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans, or any other single person cast in their previous films.

Some actors simply require more than Marvel can pay to make this dream work. If all the main actors refused to sign, or at least several, I would have to say Marvel's plan isn't working. But considering the fact that so many big name actors seem satisfied, I would have to assume that Ed simply wasn't willing to compromise in the interest of the big picture.

I'm sad to see Norton go. Honestly. But I don't think attacking Marvel over it makes sense either. They have a plan, and for the most part, it's working.
SkylerMystwood
SkylerMystwood - 7/12/2010, 6:44 PM
MAXQ1961
MAXQ1961 - 12/10/2010, 10:34 AM
Excellent article, I hope you make a follow-up to this with the latest developments that have been released on Spider-Man, X-Men and Fantastic Four. The most predominant being X-Men which will compete with Thor and Captain America movies in 2011.
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