Spider-Man, Green Goblin had NO STORY/MOTIVATION

Spider-Man, Green Goblin had NO STORY/MOTIVATION

The problem with Sam Raimi's Spider-Man is that there are no clear goals, and no clear motivations for either the protagonist or the antagonist. Let's look at the movie from Peter Parker's perspective.

Editorial Opinion
By FreedomFreeLife - May 24, 2013 08:05 PM EST
Filed Under: Spider-Man

The problem with Raimi's Spider-Man is that there are no clear goals, and no clear motivations for either the protagonist or the antagonist. Let's look at the movie from Peter Parker's perspective:

Start of movie: Spends the first 45 minutes pining for Mary Jane, but not having the courage to ask her out, or even talk to anyone for advice. That is literally his only goal, and he's not even very motivated towards achieving it, or else he would be more willing to approach her.

30 minutes: Conclude he needs a car to impress Mary Jane. He basis this entirely on the fact that Flash has a car, so he needs one too. He also yells at Uncle Ben and the wrestling manager for hassling him.

45 minutes: Uncle Ben dies. Peter finally has a motivation!"

50 minutes: Well, that ended quick. Peter spontaneously decided to start fighting crime. But there's no real driving force for this decision. He's not actually trying to achieve anything with this. He starts fighting crime because the audience paid $8 to see Spider-Man, so he had better put on his costume post haste.

60 minutes: Peter starts selling pictures, because he needs the money. But he turns down a job at Oscorp, despite needing the money. Off note: How did Peter already have his camera in place before he even shows up at the crime scene?
65 minutes: Peter meets the Green Goblin for the first time. He does not seem very concerned after the Green Goblin leaves, however, because his main priority is apparently to angst about how Harry is dating MJ and to grin with glee because MJ likes Spider-Man.

74 minutes: The Green Goblin attacks Spider-Man. Again, Spider-Man doesn't seem very concerned with the Green Goblin when the Goblin disappears. Instead, you see him self-loathing because the city hates him now, and you see him taking time out of his day to stalk MJ. "I took too buses and a cab to get to this neighborhood." Because apparently congratulating MJ after her audition is more important than hunting the Green Goblin.
84 minutes: Burning building. Peter is injured, but again, he doesn't show much sign of concern.
91 minutes: Peter realizes that the Green Goblin knows his identity! But instead of trying to chase down the Green Goblin, he seems more concerned with MJ's relationship with Spider-Man.
100 minutes: Peter realizes that MJ is in danger! Oh no! Finally, he has to act and chase down the Green Goblin!
110 minutes: The Green Goblin is dead.

So there you have it. Spider-Man doesn't show any actual concern for the Green Goblin when the Green Goblin is away until the 91 minute mark. He doesn't actually bother taking any action against the Green Goblin (in this case, making a phone call) until the 100 minute mark. That means that the movie contains roughly 10 minutes where the hero is motivated to go out of his way to chase down the villain.

In TASM. Garfield talks to Gwen for advice, then consults a local Lizard expert for advice. After realizing that the Lizard expert is the likely suspect, he warns the police and investigates the sewer systems to hunt the Lizard down. Meanwhile, Tobey spends all his time moping because the city doesn't like him anymore and stalking Mary Jane ("I took two busses and a cab just to see you at your audition, because it's easier than just calling!"). He doesn't bother asking around with anyone for leads on the Green Goblin. Remember, not only does he have connections at the newspaper, but he's also family friends with Norman Osborn, and he even had Norman over for Thanksgiving. How hard would it be for Peter to call up Norman and say, "Wow, that incident at the parade was really scary. I'm worried about your safety. Do you know why that Goblin fellow tried to attack you?" But he doesn't, because the Goblin is a weak villain and no one really sees him as a priority.

Now look at the movie from Norman's perspective:

15 minutes: Becomes the Green Goblin
50 minutes: Kills his competitors.
63 minutes: Fired from the board.
66 minutes: Kills the board.
75 minutes: Asks Spider-Man to team up with him. Never says for what.
84 minutes: Asks Spider-Man again. Angry when Spider-Man turns him down.
90 minutes: Announces that he "must teach Spider-Man loss and suffering."
91 minutes: Has chance to teach Spider-Man loss and suffering by killing Aunt May. Does not.
102 minutes: Wants to prove that Spider-Man is actually selfish
104 minutes: Knocks Spider-Man off in order to force Spider-Man to lose his grip on MJ/Kids. Shouts "It's time to die!" Has perfect opportunity to kill Spider-Man and/or teach Spider-Man the meaning of loss and suffering. Spider-Man is completely helpless. All the Goblin has to is fly towards Spider-Man, through a pumpkin bomb, fire his guns, fire his missiles, fire his energy weapons, etc. But apparently he can't, because people are throwing bottles at him or something. Apparently, there are two things that can stop the Goblin: Spider-Man, and bottles.
105 minutes: Waits until the boat slowly floats beneath Spider-Man, and then tries to kidnap Spider-Man again after everyone is safe and Spider-Man is free to fight him again.
110 minutes: Dies.

The Green Goblin kills everyone he wanted to kill at the 66 minute mark, and has no clear goals for the rest of the movie. He's basically a video game character at that point. He shows up at arbitrary moments to give the hero someone to fight, but there's no real story or motivation behind his actions. He goes from "recruit spider man" to "kill spider-man" to "torture Spider-Man" to "discredit Spider-Man" to "kill Spider-Man" to "Ow, those bottles really hurt!" to "Okay, I'm dead now."

The goal is supposed to be the destination, the motivation is what you expect when you get there. "My motivation is cake, my goal is to get to the bakery." Along the way, you may have detours and obstacles and character growth. Sometimes, you realize you can get better cake somewhere else. And sometimes, you reach the bakery and you realize that the journey was more important than the cake itself. Sometimes, the cake is a lie. But the journey to cake gives the story structure. The problem with the Green Goblin is that there's no structure. He arbitrarily changes his mind on where he wants to go, from one scene to the next.

If the Goblin truly believes that Spider-Man is the only person who can stop him, then he has absolutely no reason to risk keeping Spider-Man alive, since he'll already be invincible if Spider-Man is dead. Especially since Norman is already paranoid about betrayal, and he has zero reason to believe that Spider-Man won't turn on him. OTOH, if the Goblin has a goal that would be impossible to achieve without Spider-Man's help, then why is he so quick to try to kill Spider-Man, thus making his future goals impossible? And why doesn't he put more effort into giving Spider-Man something that Spider-Man wants?

Raimi did the same thing in Spider-Man 2. Doctor Octopus kidnaps Mary Jane because he needs Peter to help him, and then he tries to murder Peter 10 seconds later, despite the fact that he needs Peter alive. Again, these are video game villains, who exist purely to annoy the hero. But their actions don't make any sense in the context of the character. They just do evil things for the sake of being evil.

So here's a challenge: Can anyone explain what the Green Goblin's motivation is without relying on circular reasoning, and without simply saying "he's insane!" Insanity is a character trait, not a motivation. Here are some examples of circular reasonings from the last thread:

1) "The Green Goblin's goal is to make things go his way."

2) "The Green Goblin's goal is to get what he wants."

3) "The Green Goblin's goal is to kill people who get in the way of his goal (of killing people who get in the way of his goal)

4) "The Green Goblin's goal is to kill Spider-Man because Spider-Man is the only person who can get in the way of his goal of killing Spider-Man."

5) "The Green Goblin goal is to recruit Spider-Man to help him achieve his goal (of killing Spider-Man)."

6) "The Green Goblin's goal is to kill Spider-Man except when he chooses not to."

7) "The Green Goblin is power hungry, and his goal is to have the power which he needs to achieve his goals."

---------

Ironically, Norman Osborn is more effective as a villain in TASM than he did in the 2002 version, despite only being a background character. Norman engineered the death of Peter's parents, which guarantees emotional impact in the sequels, and which is the main driving force for Peter throughout the movie.

His motivation in the context of the movie is very clear: He's dying, and he can't wait for a cure. This, in turn, forces Curt to use the serum on himself before it's ready for testing, which in turn drives the rest of the story. Also, there's a good chance that Norman will kill Gwen in the sequel, which will further his impact on Peter.


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FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/24/2013, 9:49 PM
And when i ask proof, then you keep ignoring it.
You lost!
Lizard was made same way in all cartoon and comics, just like it was in TASM.
Lizard had ALWAYS SAME MOTIVATIONS AND PLANS IN EVERY COMICS AND CARTOON.
You clearly not comicbook fan at all.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/24/2013, 9:49 PM
Go read comics first!
brazilianbatman
brazilianbatman - 5/24/2013, 11:18 PM
lol saimi raimi spiderman movies were a chesy-fest. they were not made for adults.
brazilianbatman
brazilianbatman - 5/24/2013, 11:22 PM
"Raimi did the same thing in Spider-Man 2. Doctor Octopus kidnaps Mary Jane because he needs Peter to help him, and then he tries to murder Peter 10 seconds later, despite the fact that he needs Peter alive. Again, these are video game villains, who exist purely to annoy the hero. But their actions don't make any sense in the context of the character. They just do evil things for the sake of being evil."


becareful with what you say, some people in this website thinks spiderman 2 is a masterpiece.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/24/2013, 11:57 PM
Oh, and i forgot. Before Doc Ocktupus tries to kidnap Mary Jane and ask info about Spider-Man, Doc Ock tries to murder them BOTH by throwing car in cafe!
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/24/2013, 11:58 PM
Yeah, Raimi Spider-Man movies were too cheesy and made for little kids.
Spideyguy94
Spideyguy94 - 5/25/2013, 4:01 AM
Will you just stop with these articles. Tearing apart raimi's trilogy isn't going to make people all of a sudden dislike his movies and like TASM. I like TASM to a certain extent but its a much inferior movie to spider-man 1&2.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/25/2013, 4:18 AM
@niklander
This proves how bad Raimi fanboys are.
You did not even read article. It was NOTHING ABOUT PETER PARKER, IT WAS ABOUT GREEN GOBLIN DUMB!
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/25/2013, 4:18 AM
I ask proof and facts, yet raimi fanboys cant bring any...
Odin
Odin - 5/25/2013, 4:56 AM
You talk much about reading comics. So what is Green Goblin's great motivation/masterplan in comics? He just usually tries to kill Spiderman, cause mayhem and rule the city as some sort of supervillain overlord. He is one of those characters who literally is motivated by his own insanity, and that's the way he is in the movie.
LEVITIKUZ
LEVITIKUZ - 5/25/2013, 5:56 AM
It's too early in the morning for this bullshit. You prefer Nolan's Batman over Burton's don't you? That's what I [frick]ing hate about this site. When a new thing comes around, people will [frick]ing shit on the previous work.

There shut editorials are just prolonging me putting up mine because I don't want mine buried.
ForeverPowerful
ForeverPowerful - 5/25/2013, 7:43 AM
Jesus...just stop. Your making yourself look like an idiot and an asshole to everyone who comments on your "articles".

No one cares if you like TASM more.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/25/2013, 8:18 AM
@SotoJuiceMan
Motivation is what is his final plan, not first plan.
Just to kill Spider-Man is no motivation.


"f the Goblin truly believes that Spider-Man is the only person who can stop him, then he has absolutely no reason to risk keeping Spider-Man alive, since he'll already be invincible if Spider-Man is dead. Especially since Norman is already paranoid about betrayal, and he has zero reason to believe that Spider-Man won't turn on him. OTOH, if the Goblin has a goal that would be impossible to achieve without Spider-Man's help, then why is he so quick to try to kill Spider-Man, thus making his future goals impossible? And why doesn't he put more effort into giving Spider-Man something that Spider-Man wants?"
LEVITIKUZ
LEVITIKUZ - 5/25/2013, 8:52 AM
What was the Lizard's motivation and how did become evil again?
KoonEl
KoonEl - 5/25/2013, 9:33 AM
I always wondered what the plot was supposed to be for the Goblin after he killed everyone he wanted to. Actually SM1 was a disappointment when I first saw it, but after SM2 I liked it a lot more. SM2 was so good it gave me a better appreciation for the first.

Levi: The Lizard was losing access to at least a decade or two worth of research when everything was about to pay off. The way he used himself as a test subject made a lot of sense. Later deciding to turn everyone into lizard people seemed to have lost a reason between cut scenes. I felt that a lot hit the cutting room floor in this film. I think that we are supposed to take Connor's line about reptiles becoming "hostile when threatened" to mean that he acted the way he did because he felt threatened.

The plan he laid out was actually identical to Magneto's plan from X-Men 1. They won't fear or persecute me if I make everyone like me. Why he killed Stacey then saved Peter a couple of minutes later puzzled me, but I guess that we have to assume that the serum leaving his body made his feelings change.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/25/2013, 11:42 AM
@LEVITIKUZ

It seems to me;

A)You never watched TASM
B)You watched TASM, you know truth, but you hater and ignore and ask still question like you don´t know.

In comics, and in movie ABOUT LIZARD.

In movie, Dr. Connors talks that he wants to make equal world without weakness. Also, when he turns to Lizard and back to Dr. Connors, he talks how superiour is to be Lizard, and when everyone becomes a Lizard, then nobody is weak, and everything is equal world. No more lonyless, no more sick or poor people.
Also, he ask: Would you give it up, after powers you have?
So, would Spider-Man give his powers away to turn back to Peter Parker? No, he wouldnt. Lizard is same way, so he wants to make gift to everyone, make equal world. He wanted to make equal world even before he turned to Lizard.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/25/2013, 11:58 AM
Dr Connors(at start): "I want to fix my self. I want to create a world without weakness"
Dr Connors(after infection): "Clotting rate vastly improved" ; "Eyesight similarly improved, Subject no longer requires corrective lenses." ; "This is no longer about curing ills, this is about finding perfection .
Lizard in sewers: "I´m getting stronger every day"
Well, after finding out that there is no cure what could fix all the humans and ills, then there is only 1 way, to make everyone Lizard.
Dr Connors(after infection ): "I´m not the one who needs help." ; "There will be no more loneliness, no more outcasts. Species-wide distribution could enhance humanity on an evolutionary scale. One has to adapt to survive" ; "Would you give it all up after all you know you can do? All the power you feel" ; " I can save them!"
Lizard: "All these souls lost and alone. I can save them. I can cure them. There´s no need to stop me Peter."
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/25/2013, 1:17 PM
FreedomForLife, I'm glad you at least took my advice and gave an in depth analysis of why you thought something was wrong but again, I must disagree. Now I feel like you're trying too hard to nit pick things and hate this movie. This Green Goblin and the comic book Gobby both had the same motivation: The syrum screwed him up and he went insane. Not to mention he wanted to destroy any competitors or enemies, showing his businessman attitude. If you're questioning this, you're questioning the comic.

Also the whole spending the first 40 minutes trying to impress the girl or get her attention, only to become responsible after his Uncle's death, that's also precisely what happened in the comics. I mean, he wasn't chasing the girl but he was involved in only his own stuff. Being an entertainer for money, basically the same type thing. Then his Uncle died because of him and this went through his mind:"NO! NOT YOU! If only I had stopped him, Uncle Ben would still be alive! I see now, with great power, must also come great responsiblity." Both Tobey and comic Peter learned this right there and then. Although, Tobey did think about it for a week before donning the suit. Thus, you can't mock the old movies for having Pete learn this quick. He learned, the audience learned and we moved on the rest of the story.
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/25/2013, 1:22 PM
Plus you're forgetting Uncle Ben's talk with Peter in the car. That's where Peter got the idea. Ben's death was simply the final push.
TheManFromMars
TheManFromMars - 5/25/2013, 1:43 PM
He goes from "recruit spider man" to "kill spider-man" to "torture Spider-Man" to "discredit Spider-Man" to "kill Spider-Man" to "Ow, those bottles really hurt!" to "Okay, I'm dead now."


4) "The Green Goblin's goal is to kill Spider-Man because Spider-Man is the only person who can get in the way of his goal of killing Spider-Man."

These parts made me laugh.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 5/25/2013, 2:30 PM
Too bad, didn't read.
Odin
Odin - 5/25/2013, 3:04 PM
@VIRILEMAN Yeah, it's not like it would be a matter of taste and opinion, God has just simpely decided you are always right -.-
TheManFromMars
TheManFromMars - 5/25/2013, 3:33 PM
TASM had better music? LOL nope!
LEVITIKUZ
LEVITIKUZ - 5/25/2013, 3:41 PM
VIRILEMAN

Though these articles are becoming tedious I understand why he keeps writing them. The Amazing Spider-Man was a MUCH better film than Raimi's, and for some reason you guys fail to see that.


He is the only one writing articles that state TASM is better than SM1 and the articles are poorly written and half assed. Yea we should really take his opinions seriously.
OrgasmicPotatoe
OrgasmicPotatoe - 5/25/2013, 4:09 PM
@VIRILEMAN I think it's a safe bet to say the place this guy comes from is called "Trollville" or something similar.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/26/2013, 12:30 AM
@SotoJuiceMan
Even when i show proof that TASM had better CGI than old Spider-Man movies, then you still with raimi boys keep saying that TASM had worst CGI ever and old spiderman had very good CGI.

So, it has nothing to do with opinion. Its just mind that is locked and fanboys who ignore everything.
As long people keep ignoring the truth, as long i keep making those articles!
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/26/2013, 2:23 AM
I just hate it when people say that amazing spiderman's better because of it's technical aspects. The movie came out a decade later! Of course the VFX will be better. That's like saying that the new Star Wars movies are much better than the old Star Wars movies because they're shinier and more modern.
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/26/2013, 4:23 AM
Virileman,
Better Acting? Sure, if you call stuttering acting.
Better VFX and cinematogrophy? This movie came out 10 years after the first and 5 years after the last. It had a budget of 200 million while the rest had 175 to 150 million, yet all it managed to do was create backgrounds which could easily have been made with sets and creating a better looking web swinging scenario. The lizard was okay.
Better Uncle Ben? Sure Martin Sheen was great but so was other Ben. Both were awesome but at least the old Ben's death actually meant something.
Better Music? Just because the music is louder doesn't mean it's better. The whole piano and Titanic theme was NOT a Spidey soundtrack.
Better Action? How? Peter hardly through a punch and most of the action sequences were Spidey ducking from Lizards attacks in small enclosed spaces. The Train scene in spider-man 2 was the best.
Better Romance? The old trilogy was about these two kids who had known each other their whole lives but both were finding it difficult to make a relationship work. They had to struggle to be together. The new one is about this hot girl and creepy stalker falling madly in love with each other after 2 scenes together. Ultimately their whole relationship is about making out, flirting and making out. No challenges= boring.

No, these articles aren't justified. "OMG! THE NEW SPIDEY IS BETTER CUZ IT'S SHINY AND STUFF! I WILL NOT STOP TILL I'VE INSULTED EVERYONE FOR LIKING THE OLD ONES AS THEY DID NOT DO STUFF THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TILL A DECADE LATER! EVERYONE WILL SHARE MY OPINION! I'M SO NOBLE AND THESE ARTICLES MUST BE RIGHT BECAUSE I, A RANDOM FANGIRL SAYS SO!"
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/26/2013, 4:47 AM
FreedomForLife:"YOU HAVE NOT EVEN READ A COMICS."
1."HOW WAS UNCLE BEN'S DEATH PETER'S FAULT? HE DIED HIMSELF!"
2."SWINGING MUSIC IS CHEEZY? YOU HAVE NOT EVEN READ A COMICS."
3."IT DOESN'T MATTER IF HE WAS WEARING A SYMBIOTE. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS."
4."OLD PETER WAS AN ASSHOLE FOR NOT REVEALING HIS SECRET IDENTITY TO ANYONE!"
5."GREEN GOBLIN HAD NO MOTIVATION! HE JUST WENT OUT AND DID BAD THINGS FOR NO REAL REASON!"
6."OLD PETER LEARNED TOO QUICKLY, ANDREW WAS MUCH MORE ACCURATE BECUZ HE WUZ CUTER AND ATHLETIC. ALSO HE BROKE PROMISES AND HE DIDN'T LEARN SHIT TILL GWEN DIED!"
7."ASM IS MORE ACCURATE BECUZ OF WEBSHOOTERS AND GWEN STACY WHICH REALLY REALLY MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO THE STORY."

It is for these reasons, that your validity as a Spider-man expert is called to question. Thus, no matter how many articles you post, we will not change our love because of the words of noobish fangirl who has no respect for opinion and claims to have read the comics, even though she insists on mocking the things the old movies did that were true to the comics.
HOTSHOT
HOTSHOT - 5/26/2013, 5:30 AM
@Virileman, I think a majority of us agree that Doc Ock was the best Spidey movie villain.
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 5/26/2013, 6:28 AM
I really enjoyed this article, not even because I prefer TASM, this just really opened my eyes to how stupid SM1 really is. It's still my favorite of the trilogy (mainly because SM2 has a lot of BS I don't agree with and SM3 is a retarded-fest), though now I certainly look at it different.
Lindsey35
Lindsey35 - 5/26/2013, 6:33 AM
Why is everyone blind to these facts? Green Goblin was stupid and the only thing Peter was worried about was MJ, which is the main reason Peter stopped Green Goblin.
FreedomFreeLife
FreedomFreeLife - 5/26/2013, 6:54 AM
Lindsey35 this is what i am telling you.
They cant see facts. They are blind.
He say cgi was okay, yet he said Avengers had amazing CGI.
When i showed both cgi and TASM showed to be more detailed with CGI, then he just ignored it and keep saying that TASM has bad CGI.


Then Doc Ock knows who spiderman is, but has to kill himself too then nobody else dosent know the truth.

Green Goblin knows who is spiderman, kills himself, nobody else know truth now.

Doc Ock knows who is spiderman, kills himself, nobody else know the truth now.

New Green Goblin knows who is spiderman, not telling anyone, kills himself, nobody else know the truth know.

Venom knows who is spiderman, kills himself, nobody else knows the truth know.


Funny isnt it? Also Mary Jane is kidnapped every movie. It shows how bad story is. Raimi couldnt think nothing new to movie how to kill villain than just killing them selves.
Ryagan
Ryagan - 5/26/2013, 1:13 PM
Good frick, people. Is it too much to ask to enjoy both the Raimi movies and TASM? I mean, seriously. Is it too much to ask? I understand that you can express your opinion as to why you enjoy one more than the other, but there are too many dang articles on this topic.

Sure, the Green Goblin doesn't have a clear motivation, but he's insane. That's what makes him interesting. Does the Joker from 1989 Batman have clear motivation? Not really. He, too, is just insane. But we don't see people boobing and moaning about that when comparing the Burton and Nolan films.

Also, I'll admit the Raimi movies haven't aged perfectly, but I still really enjoy them. They embraced being comic book movies! That's why there were so many cheesy lines--it was trying to embrace its source material. Give this topic a rest, people. Both Spider-Man and TASM have their issues, but they both also have their liberties. Stop boobing and moaning about this topic and just give it a rest!
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