JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX: Fans Divided Over Apparent Rape Scene As Todd Phillips Talks More About Divisive Ending

JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX: Fans Divided Over Apparent Rape Scene As Todd Phillips Talks More About Divisive Ending

DC fans are divided over one specific scene in Joker: Folie à Deux and whether it features the rape of a lead character. We also have more from filmmaker Todd Phillips on the movie's shocking ending...

By JoshWilding - Oct 06, 2024 09:10 AM EST
Filed Under: Joker

During Joker: Folie à Deux's final act, Arthur Fleck decides to represent himself in court and, during a rousing speech, insults Arkham's guards. 

When he returns, they're not happy and proceed to beat him up, wash off his makeup, tear his suit to pieces and then - presumably - rape him in the shower. Nothing is explicitly shown and fans are currently divided on whether Arthur was simply beaten or sexually assaulted by those guards. 

Either way, we next see Arthur being dragged back to his cell where he lies broken in body and spirit, forced to listen to Brendon Gleeson's Jackie Sullivan murder his fellow inmate and fan, Ricky. 

It's seemingly because of this that Arthur decides to go to court the next day and admit there is no "Joker' and only he is responsible for his actions. While it isn't made overly clear, the message seems to be that Arthur has realised even his persona isn't enough to beat the system and he's better off just taking responsibility for who he is and what he's done. 

None of it really lands (hence the bad reviews) but there's chatter on social media about walkouts at this late point in the movie and a general disgust that Arthur is potentially raped by his captors. 

Talking to IGN, filmmaker Todd Phillips said, "[The] first film under the script always said 'An origin story.' Never said THE origin story. It was this idea that maybe this isn't THE Joker. Maybe this is the inspiration for the Joker. So, in essence at the end of this movie, the thing you're being left with is 'Wait, what is that thing happening behind him? Is that the guy?'"

Describing Arthur's eventual death at the hands of a fellow inmate as "beautiful," Phillips shared his take on why the madman eventually rejects Joker. 

"What he realizes is basically you can't fight City Hall. Meaning when you're Arthur you're going to always lose, and corruption will always win," he explained. "Whether it's the corruption of the prison system/guards, the corruption of the judicial system, the corruption of the media, and the way they represent Arthur in that sort of Tom Snyder-esque interview in the beginning with the very brilliant Steve Coogan."

"The only way to win is to burn it all down in Arthur's head, like just a little "[frick] it all." You know what I mean? Because you just can't win when you're a person like Arthur."

What are your thoughts on Joker: Folie à Deux's shocking final act? As always, let us know in the comments section below.

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TheJok3r
TheJok3r - 10/6/2024, 9:38 AM
I'll never understand why a studio would make a movie that deliberately tries to upset fans and the general audience. Do these "business" men and women not understand that doing so results in loss of $$$, lost of $$$ ?
IAmAHoot
IAmAHoot - 10/6/2024, 9:42 AM
@TheJok3r - Like the previous Joker movie...
Cleander
Cleander - 10/6/2024, 10:24 AM
@TheJok3r - They dont mind losing the money bc the movie they made resonated with the wrong audience so the sequel might as well go down the drain.
WruceBayne
WruceBayne - 10/6/2024, 10:49 AM
@TheJok3r - I think the studio put all their faith in the director and he did pretty much what he wanted and it didn’t go as planned financially.
AllsGood
AllsGood - 10/6/2024, 11:51 AM
@TheJok3r - Box Office: ‘Joker 2’ Stumbles with Lackluster $40 Million Debut.

“Joker: Folie à Deux,” a genre-bending sequel to the billion-dollar comic book smash, hit a sour note at the box office even as it opened to No. 1 with $40 million.

Read Here

https://variety.com/2024/film/box-office/joker-2-box-office-opening-weekend-1236166378/
Arthorious
Arthorious - 10/6/2024, 12:35 PM
@TheJok3r - she hulk is definitely in running for this
TheJok3r
TheJok3r - 10/6/2024, 1:03 PM
@AllsGood - Damn. The first movie made around $95 million. Like I said in another topic, this movie won't reach $250 million.
Ryguy88
Ryguy88 - 10/7/2024, 7:05 AM
@Cleander - what's the wrong audience? The first movie was about as main stream as it gets.
Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 9:43 AM
Imo watching this movie, when he was in court as his own attorney, and when he goes back to arhkam he's perfect joker. Those two scenes joaquin was literly mark hamil. When he went back to arkham and said "Am I in trouble, he was joker"

What a waste.
ObserverIO
ObserverIO - 10/6/2024, 11:16 AM
@ThePenguin - "When he was in court as his own attorney...he's perfect [Foghorn Leghorn]."
HashTagSwagg
HashTagSwagg - 10/6/2024, 9:44 AM
Those prison guards did more for Gotham than Batman ever could
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Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 9:44 AM
And people are saying "Arthur was pathetic, he couldn't be real joker" I mean I dont think he could take over the city, but he was confident, dangerous, got the personality right. Could kill people on stage, and stab full grown men to death. His followers were gonna "Burn the city down" and were bombing city hall.

The movie really doesent get its point across.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/6/2024, 9:59 AM
@ThePenguin - good point.

Maybe perhaps he could have done that with this Harley by his side.
Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 10:02 AM
@TheVisionary25 - Imo I wasnt a fan of harley. I dont think you've seen it, but scene at the end where two guys blow up city hall and kidnap joker, and they say "We're gonna burn the city down" that could have been more interesting movie.

Like not even if he did become joker. Like he tries to lead gang and sucks at it, or even tries to like.....sabotage them from inside that be cool
Vigor
Vigor - 10/6/2024, 1:02 PM
@ThePenguin - it seems this movie is more about Arthur who manifests this joker persona. But he's not the real joker you are familiar with. That one is a true comic book villain who (according to this movie) was inspired by Arthur and just took it to the next level

Kinda like how apple copies competition and perfects it.
People don't remember Nokia as great but they do love their iPhone, which took a lot of features from Nokia ten years ago.
Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 1:39 PM
@Vigor - Imo again it conflicts with movie message. You cant be the joker, as those guys are pathetic, but same time random people can be the joker and blow up stuff.
IronSpider101
IronSpider101 - 10/7/2024, 3:37 AM
@ThePenguin - Straight up, the actual arc should've been, if you had to do this, that it still wasn't a split personality, that the ONLY personality was Joker. That he changed as a person in that first movie and Joker was the result.
TehJoker
TehJoker - 10/6/2024, 9:47 AM
Yeah I got nothing. He raped my ass
ObserverIO
ObserverIO - 10/6/2024, 11:18 AM
@TehJoker - *They

Pretty sure it was gangrape.
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/6/2024, 9:57 AM
Ever since Pulp Fiction, there has been terrible writers who throw male rape scenes into entertainment in a desperate attempt to come across as super-artistic. In American History X butt-rape cured a guy of his racism. In JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX, butt-rape cured Arthur of his desire to be Joker.
NonPlayerC
NonPlayerC - 10/6/2024, 10:43 AM
@PartyKiller - or maybe male rape actually happens in the real world and has merit to be explored as some of the awful parts of the human experience right up there with murder and torture. Pulp fiction was a good movie, yes that rape scene was spectacle. American history x, it did not make him not racist, he had already left the aryan brotherhood and they raped him as retribution. I have not seen joker 2 because the first one was not a joker movie anyway
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/6/2024, 11:26 AM
@NonPlayerC - Your defense doesn't work. Using something that really happens as a mere stunt to falsely look like a cutting edge writer, is just a stunt. And yes, in American History X, butt-rape healed the guy of his racism.

You are trying to make art, of garbage.

NonPlayerC
NonPlayerC - 10/6/2024, 12:46 PM
@PartyKiller - 1 I’m not making art. 2 again your timeline in American history x is wrong. Go watch the movie again. 3 I agreed with you as I stated the rape in pulp fiction seemed like it was there for pure spectacle and served no purpose. 4. What was s cutting edge writing? lol writing is art bud, some people like chick flicks some people like gore movies, some people stick to hallmark movies. My point stands a that in some instances when these types of events are logical (again retaliation for leaving the aryan brotherhood, rape is a form of dominance and happens all the time in prisons, meant to crush someone’s will to fight back and create fear in their minds. Pulp fiction it was used as entertainment, American history x was a natural progression to f what his choices were. It was either that or he was gonna be murdered, if he was murdered the story was gonna end there. What would a gang response be when someone try’s to leave other than that? Your argument seems to say any portrayal of rape on screen is for entertainment, while that’s true in some cases, others it’s not. Your painting with a wide brush here. Following that logic all murders in film are solely for entertainment. While yes that applies to John wick but some movies are designed to make people think about the human experience and drive change for better or worse such as 12 years a slave, schindlers list, and yes American history x. Yes a good movie should be entertaining but some movies try to give spotlight to the evils that f humanity to promote change. Can you come up with a rational argument support your opinion otherwise?
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/6/2024, 1:07 PM
@NonPlayerC - I never dissed the rape scene in Pulp Fiction. It was there as a stunt but it was written better than the idiocy in American History X. The butt-rape in Joker 2 wasn't shown and it was even dumber. In both those cases, butt-rape was a magic healing solution that cured characters of their evil ways. What is that based on? It seems more based on a writer's need to look cutting edge than anything.

There was NOTHING psychologically sound about the after effects of the butt-rape in American History X. So it was a 'magic-butt rape' based on NOTHING. There have been millions of men who go into prison and got butt-raped. Not one came out and said that their butt-rape was their salvation. So much for your claim.

So you are seeing high-art, in an idiot's writing. Maybe you should consider that Hollywood writers do not want to depict such things in a real way because of the sick culture they live in.

That is why there is such an inexplicable shortage of Hollywood projects that bring light to the evil that is pedophilia.

The only "change" Hollywood seeks to promote, is to make people accept what they do and to think how they think. Which is why they write such a stupid thing as the 'Salvation Butt-Rape' in American History X and Joker 2.
NonPlayerC
NonPlayerC - 10/6/2024, 1:22 PM
@PartyKiller - so we agree that it can be used as nothing but entertainment or spectacle and other times it can be used right. Apparently this is a specific debate on American history x. Again rewatch the movie, there is nothing magical about it and it’s a natural progression of the story. When he goes to prison he’s well regarded by the aryans. He starts to see that the way they control power is essential perverted by their racist beleifs while simultaneously doing business with gangs of color. He disagrees with this because the aryans are saying they are all about keeping races seperate and have white supremacy but in fact their actions are purely to make money and not about actual white supremacy so he decides to leave the gang. He befriends a black man in prison (this is when his views on racism are starting to change when he realizes he can get along with this guy). The aryans then rape him in retaliation. This again hammers home that the aryans are not about white power but just power for themselves. It’s a natural progression. If all you got from that story is that they were trying to say butt rape cures racism I just think we are at an impasse
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/6/2024, 1:36 PM
@NonPlayerC - The writer did not get psychology and used butt-rape as a magic cure. The writer's turn from racist to cured racist was moronic. They could not write it in a realistic way. The writer took the story of a real skin head who in prison befriended blacks and changed his mind, into a story of a skinhead who befriends a black guy in prison, but is still a skin head until he finds salvation from butt-rape.

You can try to add whatever you want to it. But the writer took a few true stories and turned them into unrealistic crap and threw in butt-rape as an attention seeking stunt. So yes, it was the 'Magic-Butt-Rape' in both movies.

No reason to "get" something from garbage writing that failed miserably to tell how real skin heads changed their ways.
Slotherin
Slotherin - 10/6/2024, 3:21 PM
@PartyKiller - how did Pulp Fiction use anal rape better? It was completely random. At least American History X it was in a prison and had background.
Slotherin
Slotherin - 10/6/2024, 3:22 PM
@PartyKiller - kind of ignoring that the very people that he used to think were his brothers treated him with far less humanity than the guy who he previously saw as beneath him...
TheyDont
TheyDont - 10/6/2024, 6:55 PM
@PartyKiller - Do you have a link to a study that proves that butt-rape does not actually cure racism? Could we be on the verge of a breakthrough?
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/6/2024, 11:47 PM
@TheyDont - HAHAHA! I guess until research is found, Hollywood will continue to preach that salvation comes from butt-rape.

Ryguy88
Ryguy88 - 10/7/2024, 7:08 AM
@PartyKiller - lmao, I never looked at butt-rape as such a powerful force for good before. Thank you.
newhire13
newhire13 - 10/8/2024, 8:15 AM
@PartyKiller - You know you don’t have to call it “butt rape”, you can just call it rape
PartyKiller
PartyKiller - 10/9/2024, 5:24 AM
@newhire13 - It's gotta be butt-rape.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/6/2024, 9:57 AM
Todd Phillips went to the Zack Snyder school of thinking…

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Kidding aside , it’s weird to be upset by something that may or may not have happened in the film itself…

I haven’t seen the movie yet but the way people had been talking about it made me think we see it happen perhaps.

Anyway , I think the big reason this isn’t being received generally well is because there is no catharsis…

The first Joker had him becoming that persona and even getting some degree of payback & revenge but this doesn’t do that and leads to a bleak , kinda nihilistic ending.
Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 10:00 AM
@TheVisionary25 - Imo I like the idea of a cult figure regretting his cult, but the movie execution isnt good. As you can see from other comments of mine, I get the sense movie doesent know if it wants him to be a serial killer or Arthur.

And honestly I dont think he suits arthur in original movie. Original arthur was constantly having dark thoughts, moody, and weird. This arthur is way too normal, and his insanity feels forced.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/6/2024, 10:15 AM
@ThePenguin - interesting

I’m not getting lie , everyone’s comments make me want to check it out more
Mastero
Mastero - 10/6/2024, 10:17 AM
@TheVisionary25 - Its worth try. But I warn my issue is like pure fundamental stuff. The movie feels disjointed and boring, and lacks any spark. Don't go in expecting to hate or love it cause of choices alone cause it doesent execute them well enough

Some beautiful cinematography though
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 10/6/2024, 10:34 AM
@ThePenguin - oh , I’ll definitely try to go in with an open mind as I always do in these projects
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