Reflections of a Heirophant: Batman (1989)

Reflections of a Heirophant:  Batman (1989)

I've always loved Batman. He is my absolute favorite hero. But, does Tim Burton's version confidently stand with the Legendary Batman? WARNING: This is a long review! READER BEWARE!

Review Opinion
By YakeTheSnake - Dec 07, 2010 12:12 AM EST
Filed Under: Batman

     Alright, let me tell you: I loved this movie when I was a kid. My mother introduced me to it when I was young, noticing my love of the comic books. When she told me that there was a live-action version of my favorite hero, I nearly shat my pants. Could it be? Can there exist a comic book brought to life by Hollywood? Well, let’s find out:

     The opening credits are exquisitely done with a camera winding through a stone labyrinth. The camera finally starts to pull out from the maze, slowly showing that the maze isn’t a grouping of random twists and turns. Rather, it is a deliberate shape. As we pull completely out, we finally see the infamous Bat Symbol. AWESOME!

     The opening scene starts with an obviously out-of-town family, walking the streets of Gotham. Even this small role is well portrayed. Watching this makes you feel the panic that said family is feeling, nervous about what might happen to them. They, eventually, are robbed by Nic and Eddie, two down-and-out guys looking for a quick payday. They escape to a staple of any Burton film, a large gothic building, to count their loot.

Within minutes, Batman descends upon the rooftop, surprising the thugs. Nic shoots Batman, knocking him on his @ss, only to pop up and take out Eddie with an epic kick. Batman dangles Nic over the edge of the building when he asks Nic to tell his friends about him. When asked what he is, Batman famously replies, “I’m Batman.”


     All I can say is: What a great way to open up the film. From the beginning, you can clearly see Burton’s style oozing from this movie. With the awesomely predictable Danny Elfman score, the tone is set for the remainder of this movie. We are about to embark on a dark and twisted tale. Already, I can tell that Michael Keaton was the best choice for “Batman,” but will he suffice for “Bruce Wayne.” But what about the first thugs we see in the film, Christopher Fairbank(as Nic) and George Roth(as Eddie). I think these two did a fantastic job, especially when one takes into account the short amount of screen time they have. You could really feel the dread pouring from their performances.

     Well, we’re next introduced to Harvey Dent, as well as a first glimpse of Commissioner James Gordon. I’m a bit of a
traditionalist, and, at first, wish they would’ve found someone who looked similar to Dent. But, Billy Dee Williams proves that he is a great choice, possibly the best casting in this film. Jim Gordon is a bit lacking, I feel. He doesn’t really look like Gordon from the comics, and appears to be a bit younger. When Pat Hingle finally gets a line in the film, it’s easy to see: He was a bad choice to portray the legendary Commissioner. The character seems to be portrayed as a bit of a naïve cop, rather than the wise, and, seemingly, all-knowing legend. I just feel it’s a poor choice.

     Now, we get to see one of the best characters in
comics, Harvey Bullock. Why are they calling Harvey Bullock “Lt. Eckhardt?” So, they obviously based this character on Harvey Bullock, but gave him a completely different name, and rank. I can’t even imagine what their logic for deciding upon this was. Lt. Eckhardt, like Bullock was, is a corrupt cop on the payroll of Crime Boss, Carl Grissom. This is conveyed in the form of him accepting a bribe from another gangster by the name of Jack Napier, an obvious underling of Grissom’s. William Hootkins is fantastic for the job of portraying… ahem… Lt. Eckhardt.

     Jack Napier, portrayed by Jack Nicholson, is a pompous little sh*t, intent on overthrowing Carl Grissom, to take control of Carl Grissom. Jack Nicholson is very convincing, as he is in every film, as Jack Napier.

     Depicting Carl Grissom, a notorious Crime Boss who, essentially, controls Gotham City, is the always enjoyable, Jack Palance. Carl Grissom is said to be based upon the character Sal Maroni, who is a leading mob boss in the comics. While this seems to ring true, I do see a little bit of Hamilton Hill, who appears in the comics rather briefly.

     Carl Grissom, rattled by the relentless prodding of Harvey Dent, decides to send Napier to ransack Axis Chemicals to destroy any evidence of his involvement. By way of insinuation, we learn that Napier has been diddling Grissom’s woman, and the mission is a way to get rid of Napier.

     When we get our chance to decide if Michael Keaton was the best choice for the famous Billionaire, in a scene depicting a party at his mansion, we are not surprised to find that he, indeed, was the best choice. He really pulls off the subtle “rich-boy” arrogance needed for the role, as well as a seemingly sympathetic side.

     This entire time, Alexander Knox, a news reporter for Gotham Times, and Vicki Vale, a popular photographer, are intent on discovering the truth about this mysterious “Bat Man.” Vale procures two tickets to the
party at Wayne Manor, knowing that Dent and Gordon will be in attendance. They are dodged by both, when Gordon is called away by a police officer who informs him that Napier is at Axis Chemicals, and is being pursued by cops lead by Bullock, I mean Eckhardt. Gordon seems to be rather unhappy about Eckhardt leading the team of cops into Axis.

     Eckhardt sneaks off, ostensibly, to kill Napier himself, after Gordon shows up at Axis Chemicals and makes it known that Napier is to be taken alive. Batman shows up, in an attempt to thwart Eckhardt, and his men, from killing Napier, when he accidentally knocks Napier into a vat of acid, presumably killing him..

     Vale, on a date with Wayne, is eating soup in a large Dining Room. “Hilarity” ensues when they can’t hear each other from across this table, which must be larger than it appears. They decide to have dinner with Alfred where we stumble upon a conversation nearing its end. I do feel that Michael Gough has done a great job giving Alfred the, necessary, paternal love for Bruce Wayne. Also, these scenes are intended to show the more human side of the rich billionaire playboy, but falls short. What it does accomplish is portraying Vicki Vale as a drunk slut. On the first date, she puts out! And, if this isn’t bad enough, she awakes to find Bruce hanging upside down in some sort of inversion system. Holy crap, seriously?!?! They are insinuating that he sleeps upside down like a bat? This movie is failing fast.

     I really hate that they gave Joker an identity prior to becoming the green haired criminal. But, that can be forgiven, because of how great the character of Jack Napier is. I love how Nicholson portrays the extreme changes in emotions that surround Joker, from extremely angry, to laughing maniacally at the sight of his disfigured face. I also really enjoy the following scene, in which Grissom is confronted by a “reborn” Napier,
calling himself "Joker." Burton does a fantastic job keeping you in suspense, concealing Napier’s face in the shadows until he reveals himself to a shocked Grissom, who he shoots and kills in a careless fashion.

     Vicki Vale decides to stalk Wayne for lying to her. Wasn’t it supposed to be common knowledge what happened to Bruce Wayne when he was young? That’s fine, she’s an out-of-towner, but that doesn’t excuse that nobody else knows what happened to him, when Vale asks Knox, for instance. And when she follows Wayne, why does he drop roses at the site of his parents’ murder? Why wouldn’t he drop them at their grave? This is where Burton has decided to cast mystery on the wrong character. Joker should have been the one who was cast in shadows, where we had to figure out, in time, who he was(since Tim insisted on giving him a past).

     At a press conference, where Wayne conveniently finds himself, a Rupert Thorne like man is claiming that Grissom has left HIM all of his properties. Joker appears and kills “Vinny”(the Thorne looking character) with a quill. Is Burton serious, is he really portraying a literal version of, “The pen is mightier than the sword” saying? Oh, wait, Joker just said that. This is ridiculous, even for a Batman movie. I know that this is “just a movie,” but seriously?

     I really dig when Vale(at, what she thinks is. a date with Bruce) gets the gasmask while the patrons fall unconscious(or dead, it’s not made clear) around her. Joker has become infatuated with her after seeing a picture of her taken by Bob(his number 1 guy, as stated in a dead-on impression of Palance). But then the Joker enters, dancing to Prince. That seems a bit out of place. But, the pièce de résistance, I feel, is when Vicki Vale throws water in the face of Joker, after which he pretends to be melting, à la “The Wizard of Oz.” When he reveals his face, with the flesh makeup striped down his face, that was truly terrifying for me when I was a child. Just an awesome part. Batman spoils the moment when he jumps through the sugar glass, saving the damsel in distress.

     How come, with all of his advance technology, can Batman’s grappling hook only lift a certain weight? When he tries to escape with Vicki, following a car chase where we see the Batmobile for the first time, onto a rooftop, the line buckles, unable to carry both of them. Yeah, that’s realistic, but he designed a car that can drive on its own, why does the line only hold a certain weight? And where in the Blue Hell did Vicki pull that camera from?

     After all of the calamity, Batman takes Vicki to the Bat Cave to give her his findings about what combinations of products(which Joker has tainted with his “Smiley” toxin) will induce a toxic reaction in the human body. But, when she questions his true motive, Batman punches her to knock her out. Ok, I know, he probably didn’t, but that sure did look like it. But, I did find something interesting, Batman, in his Bat Cave(which is filled with bats), keeps a lone bat in a cage. That’s strange, even for a man who wears a rubber bat suit.

     I do take issue with Wayne deciding to tell Vicki that he is Batman. But, regardless, Keaton does a great job of making you believe that he is infinitely nervous when he babbles nonsense. Wayne is interrupted when Joker pops up unexpectedly. Now, we get a magnificent performance from Mr. Keaton where he LOSES HIS SH*T, challenging him to a “crazy-off.” This ultimately ends when Joker shoots Wayne in the chest, following the statement, “Have you ever danced with the Devil in the pale moon light?” Wayne is taken aback by this, which distracts him enough to get shot easily. What a chilling thing to say before you kill someone. I would even argue that it rivals Samuel L. Jackson’s “God’s Wrath” quote in “Pulp Fiction.”

     Vale’s suspicions that Bruce is, in-fact, Batman(after finally discovering his past) are solidified when Alfred lets her into the Bat Cave. ARE YOU SERIOUS? I’ll tell you this, if I were Wayne, that would’ve been Mr. Pennyworth’s last day of employment. That was just the stupidest thing that Burton, no, Bob Kane, could’ve allowed to happen in this movie. Just ridiculous!

     Alright, I can let a lot of things slide, but there is one thing that I can’t forgive: Joker did NOT kill Thomas and Martha Wayne. That accomplishment is owned by Joe Chill. I know Burton is trying to make the final confrontation between Batman and Joker more meaningful, but that is something you can’t do. Not to mention that Napier looks to be 30 in the flashback, how old would he be now then? And, for that matter, how old is Bruce? I was under the impression that he was very young when he took up the mantle of Batman. I really do like Keaton in this, but he looks rather old. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me.

     Joker has taken over the Bicentennial Celebration, and set the festivities to the tune of… Prince… again. Alright, already! I get it, Prince made some music for this movie. Can we please just leave it on the soundtrack? SERIOUSLY!

     As promised, Joker is throwing money at the vastly increasing throng of people. When he finally decides to kill all of the citizens, he uses his balloons to release his toxin into the air, thus destroying the city’s population. Weird thing about it is, instead of DEFLATING, they seem to INFLATE! I’m not even going to attempt to argue logic on this, using the legendary “It’s Just a Movie” card.

     Batman scoops up the toxic balloons in an incoherent way with his Batwing. He proceeds to send them high into the sky. It also seems that he has flown into Space for the purpose of silhouetting against the moon. This part(the Moon Silhouette scene) really served no purpose other than people getting excited to see a hint of the Bat Signal. Just a silly part that should’ve been cut.

     When he plummets back to Earth, he goes directly after Joker with the Batwing’s missiles and turrets. WOW, Joker is completely unmatched. So, instead of running, he pulls out a comically long barreled revolver. Joker takes aim and shoots. The shot lands, and, amazingly, causes the Batwing to crash. This part is ridiculous, and shouldn‘t have been allowed to happen.

     Batman crashes at the steps of a cathedral, seemingly dead. Vicki runs to the wreckage, only to be captured by Joker and taken to the top of said cathedral. Batman stumbles out of the cockpit of the Batwing, pursuing Joker to the top of Cathedral. When he gets there he fights magical thugs, who appear out of nowhere. After finishing the magic thugs, Vicki attempts to distract Joker by… TRYING TO BLOW HIM?!?! You can’t tell me any different, this is what is exactly insinuated.

     Batman confronts Joker about killing his parents. A fight ensues leaving Batman and Vicki Vale hanging on to the edge of the building. A helicopter appears to pick up Joker. Batman shoots his Batarang around Joker’s leg, attaching a gargoyle to Joker’s leg. I’m curious: How did he manage that amazing shot while hanging from the tower one-handed? Burton doesn’t even show the line actually wrapping around the gargoyle. It’s like he knew it was ridiculous, but didn’t care. Regardless, Joker plummets, from a great distance, to his death, leaving a bag of laugh boxes permanently releasing their laughter upon the crowd below. I always felt it was a bit odd to kill off Batman’s Arch Nemesis, rather than keeping him alive for a future film.

     With the exception of a few bad casting choices, and some nonsensical storytelling within the plot, it was a great film. But, it lacks in the “Interpretation” department, which can be forgiven because of the, mostly, wonderful cast. I do remember, when watching this at a young age, I was excited when news came forth about a sequel: “Batman Returns.” I really do recommend this film to anyone, whether they are fans of the comics, or fans of the movies in general.
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LEEE777
LEEE777 - 12/5/2010, 5:39 PM
Whoah... excellent review and excellent classic movie too!

You can't beat KEATON even tho I love BALE!

Epic stuff dude, thumbs up!
superbatspiderman
superbatspiderman - 12/5/2010, 6:34 PM
Great movie I love every bit of it. I especially love the music at the end of the movie.Instant classic.
YakeTheSnake
YakeTheSnake - 12/5/2010, 9:21 PM
Thank you guys,I wasn't sure if this was too long. I was literally watching this movie as I wrote this. Anytime something struck me, I wrote it down. I did reduce the size from 5 pages to 3 in Word.
Louzer
Louzer - 12/6/2010, 1:45 PM
Good, thought and laugh provoking review.
I never thought of Vale getting punched, offering a bj or the Joker's stupid gun in that way.
It just seemed an antidote to the 60s tv show.
I liked the way the first seen played on the origin angle.
Viewers may have thought that family of tourists could well have been the Waynes.
The film was just an info mercial for Prince too!
HAQ
HAQ - 12/6/2010, 2:42 PM
Nice, nice, U pointed out very good why Burton's movies (forget about Schumacher's lmao) don't hold no weight against Nolan's (that's the way 2 go). I loved Batman & Returns as a child also, but now it's just a sentimental thing. Good job on the review.
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 12/6/2010, 6:12 PM
ha\ha, dude, that was a great revisit. I watched it recently and totally picked up on all of that silly shit which just doesn't register when your a kid. I still love Burton's films, but anyone who actually believes that they are better than Nolan's is looking with rose tinted glasses.
YakeTheSnake
YakeTheSnake - 12/6/2010, 11:36 PM
@yossarian: What I meant was the film was a great movie, if it were to stand alone. I just felt some parts were were asinine, and certain liberties shouldn't have been allowed. Re-reading it, I realize that I didn't make that clear. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'd edit it, but it seems that editing of this article has been disabled.
spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 4:05 AM
can't stand the burton version, can't STAND it.

a) gothem doesn't look like a real city.
b) you don't believe the burton batman could intimidate anyone let along hardened criminals.
c) joker was way over the top and in no way scary, great performance by jack but it wasn't joker.
d) making joker the killer of bruce's parents :facepalm:
e) harvey dent - if you are going to cast a black man for role then have the balls to stick with that black man when turns into the villian (to be fair shoemaker recast dent/two-face)

in fact there is only one moment in the entire burton batman movies (batman '89/BR)that I enjoyed and that is when keaton picks up the poker and says 'you want to get nuts, let's get nuts!' okay, THAT was good.
Angelus
Angelus - 12/7/2010, 4:19 AM
Michael Keaton is in many ways, in my opinion, better than Christian Bale at this thing but Christian Bale is fantastic. Now, Jack Nicholsons Joker is amazing. It still puts Ledger's to shame. Tim Burtons Batman is actually one of my favorite films. It really got that Bats 90's feel to it(I know it's from 1989). Great film. Nicholson shows he is a force to be reckon with, and that role still is. Absolutely one of his best performances ever.

BMP!
spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 4:32 AM
@ Angelus

you seriously prefer nicholson's joker to ledger's? wow...
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 12/7/2010, 4:43 AM
Sorry dude, but exactly how is a middle aged, overweight, prince dancing killer of Bruce Wayne's parents more faithful that the force of nature with no past from Nolan's films? maybe I'm reading the wrong Batman comics..
spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 4:44 AM
@ Angelus

you seriously prefer nicholson's joker to ledger's? wow...
spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 4:47 AM
read;
the killing joke
the dark knight returns

watch;
return of the joker

ledger's joker is SPOT ON
Angelus
Angelus - 12/7/2010, 4:52 AM
@ Spiderneil - Yes. I do. Not that I am an expert on acting but I would claim Nicholson to be probably one of the best there ever was. His portrayal was more grounded to the Batverse. The whole feeling, the aroma if you will was so much more cartoony but still dark. Dont get me wrong, Heath Ledgers Joker was good, but Nicholsons was simply better. His death only hyped TDK way outta proportions. There are so many different Jokers, but I still think the portrayal of Nicholsons was in the spirit of the early 90's Bats. Both Joker's are completely different but both are good. Nicholson is just better to me.

BMP!
supertrackmonkey
supertrackmonkey - 12/7/2010, 5:02 AM
I could never stand Nicholson's Joker. While Nicholson is a great actor, his performance was bad. But I blame that on the director and the script.
I can't stand Tim Burton as a director. Although I also blame the studio, WB, for the movies being atrocious.
Keaton was a horrible Batman and an even worse Bruce Wayne.
Bigbywolf
Bigbywolf - 12/7/2010, 5:02 AM
Batman 1989 is a good movie. However I agree with Ror that people see this film through rose tinted glasses. The last time I watched this I felt that it was Joker's story. Batman is too enigmatic and I feel its difficult to get behind him as a hero.
I actually feel that Batman Returns is the better movie.
TheDarqueOne
TheDarqueOne - 12/7/2010, 5:54 AM

MetaWar Chapter Nineteen
"Thunder in Houston"

Part II of II

Original SuperHero fiction here on CBM


spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 6:07 AM
@ grifdeadpoolteabag

what did batman ('89) do that made him intimidating?

with regards to joker, he breaks into a museum and randomly trashes it? WHY?
reading joker I always get the impression that on the surface he is chaos but deeper there was a plan, so the museum scene made no sense to me.

also with nolan he seems to get that joker doesn't really want to kill batman he just want to challenge him and make him become more like himself (the joker) where as nicholson's joker is going all out to kill batman (note the 10 foot long gun with which he shoots down the batplane).

MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 12/7/2010, 6:09 AM
Intruder, how exactly does Ledger's Joker behave like a street punk? Is he out robbing old ladies handbags or something? Sure the make up and scars are deviations from the comic but Nolan more than makes up for it with every other aspect of the character imo. Yes, just my opinion! I never said I was right, I'm just putting across my thoughts on it. You say Nicholson was the truer interpretation and I ask you how? There have been many versions of The Joker in the comics true, but the general consensus, again no accounting for taste, is that the definitive version that has maintained and really become canon is Alan Moore's take on him. That is the one Leger's Joker drew most from, obviously there were other inspirations too. I liked Nicholson's portrayal a lot, but you talk about personality and motivations: he played him as a nutty buffoon. Pretty much a horny jester who's whole basis for getting involved with Bruce Wayne's life is that he is in love(or at least wants to [frick]) Vicki Vale. Really? In all teh years I have been reading Batman comics, that was no Joker I ever came across. And I am well aware that many people prefer Burton's films, that doesn't mean they are BETTER films. I will go head to head on any debate on every single aspect of the films, from acting to script to deviations from the comic if you want to include that. From any critical standpoint, Nolan's movies are just better made. But again, that's just my take. Everyone looks at what makes a movie "better" than another in a different way I guess.
Protonite
Protonite - 12/7/2010, 6:18 AM
I personally prefer Nolan's take on Batman over Burton's. But it's a matter of opinion. People like one version and hate the other, while some enjoy both.
spiderneil
spiderneil - 12/7/2010, 6:23 AM
@ RorMachine

totally agree, joker's motivation for getting rid of batman was vicki vale rather than the joker being obsessed with batman purely because he is the total opposite of everything the joker stands for.

it's like the director doesn't 'get' the character.
look at shoemakers take on two-face with tommy lee jones getting upset if he 'loses' the coin toss. WHAT?!
two-face HAS no emotion, his every motivation is decided by the flick of a coin.

to be fair nolan gets this wrong as well especially in the car where he tosses the coin to see if the mob boss lives or dies. two-face loses and then tosses the coin to kill the driver.
that's wrong - two face should have tossed the coin to see if the mob boss lives or dies and if the coin decided he lives he should have got out the car and left the mob boss alone - the COIN said he lives.
Niprock
Niprock - 12/7/2010, 6:31 AM
RorMachine, I could not have put it any better, however i did love that Acid spraying flower he had in the museum and the joy buzzer that bbq'd that mob boss, those were wicked
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 12/7/2010, 6:31 AM
Intruder sure they can, which is why I'm looking for debate! I have reasons to back up my statement and am looking for the same.

Look, I don't want to give the impression I dislike Burton's movies at all. Batman was one of the first revisits I did..

Batman

If you want my full take on it. I used to really over use !!!!! by the way!

Oh and just rereading this Heiro, what's wrong with drunk sluts that put out on the first night? Thank God for em!




LEEE777
LEEE777 - 12/7/2010, 6:47 AM
Congrats dude, damn, I'm gonna read this again!

BATMAN'S an awesome movie!
ROMACK
ROMACK - 12/7/2010, 6:57 AM
Keatons Batman rules. Nicholsons Joker was awesome at the time and was PERFECT for that franchise. Ledgers Joker was right for the Nolan/Bale franchise, but I found it to be no more impressive than Nicholsons. He was dark and brooding and not very manic at all. That does not sound too much like the Joker we have come to know from the comics.
flyingbyhisseat
flyingbyhisseat - 12/7/2010, 7:07 AM
@JacksonVegaIII

I totally agree. I could have lived without Prince on the soundtrack too, as much as I like Prince,but at the time Prince was the big thing back then. So I guess they wanted to get as many big stars as possible to get the movie off the ground. Anyway, Burtons Batman movies had style. Gotham City as well Batman and all the other characters where stylized. The city didn't look like New york or Chicago, it was Batmans world. I mean the 30's look of the gangters, the batmoblie, the Batcave and even the uniforms of the police it all just screemed GOTHAM CITY.
Boogie138
Boogie138 - 12/7/2010, 7:17 AM
the burton flicks were good for the time and fun inspite of the misguided creative choices, but i really love the nolan verse because: its a perfect exercise in creating a live action elseworld tale. take the core of the material and run with it! just fricking run with it. appeal to long standing fans and newbies alike by saying. this is not the comics batman. its my batman.

burtons batman felt too much like a filtered idea of bob kanes batman thru burtons creative eye. its the character being handled by a guy who never read the comics, yes looked at some material after he got the job, then spent time with the dude who created bats then set out to "burtonize" the batverse without a core unserstanding of the material itself. its like singer's x-men. good but didn't take it far enough if your gonna change sh*t, and kept to close to some random "rules" from the comics without understanding what makes the rules important.

not bad films. we just getting better ones now. the blueprint was made, nolan was the first filmaker who said hey my idea of batman is this. lets fit batman into this idea and let the world populate itself with comic counterparts in new exciting ways without betraying what fans know.

i gotta go lay down...
GUNSMITH
GUNSMITH - 12/7/2010, 7:48 AM
I STILL LIKE NOLAN VERSION. ONLY THING I DIN'T LIKE WAS BALES VOICE. KEATON WAS NATURAL AND HAD A "CRAZY" IN HIM.
Ryden
Ryden - 12/7/2010, 8:12 AM
Bale sucks, worst Batman ever easily. Keaton is the best by miles. Not in appearence but just in the way he acts, he's so reserved and unnasuming as Bruce and totally bad-ass and scary as Batman. When I say Bale attempt to "scare" people he sounds and looks [frick]ing ridiculous. Honestly if Bat-bale pulled me up and screamed his usual gurglly nonsense I'd laugh my ass off then slap him for being so un-Batman like.

Nolan's films have a good scope, but they don't have the right feel. Nolan seems to have forgotten that Batman is a superhero who lives in a fantastical world. Burton nailed Batman.


And Nicholoson may have been oldert han he should have been, but there's no question his performance was far more 'Joker-like' than Ledger's.
theangrytroll
theangrytroll - 12/7/2010, 8:47 AM
I LOVE this movie!

And, (not to start any arguments,) I am not looking at it through "rose-tinted glasses." I was already an adult when it came out, so it also has nothing to do with it being a part of my childhood, either. I just think it's a MUCH more fun movie to watch than what Nolan has given us.
Boogie138
Boogie138 - 12/7/2010, 9:25 AM
@Intruder: thats not what burton did. burton said how can i make this look cool and dark and had no respect for the source material. the dude trashed comics but on the dvd cites alan more's killing joke as the films biggest influence? i saw very little of that book in the movie. burton made a movie that would propell his career (which it did), in fact what little "fighting" that was in the movie came from peters not burton. burton didn't get batman. his talented cast and crew and burton himself crafted a good flick, not bashing the dude. but he didn't run with it, what are you talking about. he threw in sh*t that made no sense, in context of the source material or the film itself

non of his "changes" added anything to overall emotional core of the film, other than to add another footnote to the home veiwer scorecard. i like burton. i like his batman. calling it the best batfilm, sorry no. don't like nolan or his take, fine. but dude nolan doesn't hide behind wacky visuals everytime he doesn't grasp a concept.

the story is flat, i don't believe in half of the characters motavations or reasoning. great actors in cookie cutter roles still equals cookie cutter characters. underused talent or misguiding talent is rampant in burtons flick

how am i contracting myself? maybe i didn't break it down enough or use smaller, easier to understand words lol. i'll use a puppet show next time
LOL
LOL - 12/7/2010, 9:58 AM
I may have to agree with those that went with the Tim Burton Batman movie - despite the liberties it took with some of the source materials - it was actually truer in tone and style to the comic books as it could get in ALMOST every aspect that is supposed to make it a "comic book style" movie.

Michael Keaton's take on the Bruce Wayne/Batman dual personality was spot on whereas Bale's way of doing his thing as Bruce/Bats was almost zero to distinguish... don't get me wrong, I love both movies as they are a product of their time... but Keaton was a better character actor than Bale as Bruce/Bats for the simple fact that he really can project being a ditz as Bruce Wayne and Intense as Batman. Bale looked as if he was trying too hard to be "Bruce Wayne, playboy and airhead" as he was in the original comic books before they changed his tone in the current continuity.

My gripe about Bale's Batman voice stands; I've seen Bale affect a lighter and darker tone to his voice in a lot of his other movies, even when he vocied Howl's Moving Castle.... all he had to do was affect a lighter voice for his Bruce Wayne to give the air of being an almost brainless twit, and be as menacing as he can be like he did in Equilibrium as Batman. The waspish tone didn't suit (pun intended) the way he looked in the Batsuit at all even though he kicks more butt than Keaton does as Bats...

Now on to the Joker: admittedly, Jack Nicholson was nowhere close to being what Joker in the comics looked liked in terms of weight and girth... he was a bit truer to the source material in character acting though. Joker did get bathed in chemicals that gave him his PERMANENT bone-china skin tone, a PERMANENT rictus grin that was NOT caused by blades... and that he was CRAZY smart as well as just plain crazy. IN the comics, Joker himself was believed to have made most of his Joker materials (laughing gas, weps, etc - he is, in DC wiki, described as a mad genius in chemistry and engineering, immune to his own toxins, and completely as per what Dennis O'Neil said: "a homicidal maniac who murders people on a whim, while enjoying battles of wits with Batman".) If Heath and Jack's joker were to be combined, you'd get the full deal... without the supposed reason of "good vs evil" needing a balance philosophical BS that you get in Nolan's version of Joker vs Bale's Batman.

Bottom line: the Joker was and always is a homicidal maniac that has committed crimes both whimsical and inhumanly brutal, all with a logic and reasoning that, in Batman's words, "make sense to him alone". None of the philosophical BS that was present in Heath's lines in the climax of their confrontation in the movie was ever what the Joker was all about.

Gritty realism is where Nolan went with his Batman, so it's what we got if he was here in the real world. It works fine, but I just can't stand Bale's waspish voice, that's all. That's the only gripe I have with his take on the franchise... I loved both of his movies and even Heath's Joker was OK, even though he was more psychological terrorist than screaming mad genius.

Burton's version of Batman was, to me, one of the best "comic book styled" Batman movies ever.... while Nolan's version comes a close second.

Anyway, always treat comic book movies as some sort of "what if" and as an "elseworlds" theme rather than direct translations for the source material... Hollywood would NEVER get that thing down 100 percent, so wake up and smell the pot roast. The reason why so many CBMs really don't make the cut to most fans is that they are expecting it to be as close to the source material as they WANT it to be. Most CBMs would go down well if we remember that fact and just look at them as interpretations - and enjoy them as escapism rather than beat them to death with fan logic need for realism.

...besides, why be so serious?
scallywagthedog
scallywagthedog - 12/7/2010, 10:05 AM
I hope I'm not plagerizing anyone here, kinda just re-stating the concensus: Just like there's people who love cats and people who love dogs, Batman movie fans can "like" both Burton & Nolan's versions, but hold only one close to their heart. It has to do with individual tastes. In 100 years from now, the two will stand side by side as two "seperate but equal" versions of a classic comic book hero. (For the record, I favor Burton.)
Bigbywolf
Bigbywolf - 12/7/2010, 10:10 AM
@ Ryden

Fair enough. You obviously don't like Bale's interpretation. However when you say he is the worst batman ever, did you forget George Clooney and his bat nipples?
Shaman
Shaman - 12/7/2010, 11:11 AM
I may not have read every comment before mine since i spent all day writing this. Please bare with me ;)

ReflectingHeirophant- Great write-up, but sometimes you left me with the impression of trying to find flaws where there were none. I'm not saying Burton's Batman was perfect, far from it in fact, but it really seemed like you were evaluating that film with a somewhat biased mind and were really combing with a fine tooth comb, a spotlight and a magnifying glass. I'm not saying it was the case but it's what it seemed like. Then again, perception IS relative and although Ror might say that fans of this film are watching it with "rose tinted glasses", the same could be said for the opposite view with a different hue.

The fact is that Burton's film definitely was a "bad" adaptation. It didn't follow the source, it reinvented characters and it killed an iconic villain. But in my opinion, what this film could be described more appropriately as, would be as THE perfect "elseworlds" Bat film. Back in the day, films weren't "meant" to be trilogies from their inceptions. So Burton's 89 Bat film was meant as a "one-shot" epic. And it definitely & literally was an EPIC. Only after its success did WB think "okay, what should be the next chapter?" And although I still enjoyed Batman Returns (how ironic), it did lack from that treatment. But the state of mind in making the first epic really seemed to be "how do we make all those comics seem like one big epic?" That must be why certain characters had little to no development and were merely empty shells of their true selves, such as Gordon & Alfred. For the second tier characters, they seemed to simply focus on how fundamental they were to the tale instead of fleshing out characters to resemble their comic book counterparts. They seemed to wish to explore how Gordon would have been before he knew beyond the shadow of a doubt if Batman was working for the good of the city or not. The end press release truly showed us his change of heart even though only slightly. So the Gordon from the books was more present in Batman Returns however, although his "role" was intact, Hingle wasn't a right fit to bring us the Gordon we know and love.

As for your comments in regards to Joker, they were all spot on, except for your criticisms (IMO). There is not ONE THING that Nicholson did in that film that ANY interpretations of the Joker would have refused to do or even laughed at the idea of doing, period. In fact, i'm certain they would all say "Damn! Wish i had thought of that one! Oh wait... I DID!!!" *Cue maniacal laugh* Nicholson was as perfect as Ledger was. Both were highly different I’ll give you that, which could explain why so many people feel the need to choose between them. But neither one of those portrayals had a shadow of a reason to be criticised. They were BOTH brilliant performances and portrayals in their own individual way. The huge gun he used on the batwing is right up Joker's alley. And if you notice, the man's fired a gun or two before that one so the blast truly was way more powerful than an average gun, making it capable of dishing out damage significant enough to bring the batwing down.

As for the "inflating" balloons, maybe he wanted them to blow up. Maybe if those balloons had blown up, he could have taken out the entirety of Gotham instead of just main st. So what if that wasn't explained? To me, it really wasn't requiring further explanation. The gas was the real threat and Batman dealt with it. On a side note, being seen as a public menace at that time, I’m sure Batman truly didn't want to obliterate Joker with freakin' gatling guns. But that's left to interpretation I guess. As for his choice in music, you suggest "Can we please just leave it on the soundtrack?" Do you even know what the definition of a soundtrack is? SERIOUSLY! For a song to be a part of a soundtrack, it must be heard in the film. True, some songs like the ever loved Batdance wasn't in the film but one or two CAN be "inspired" by the film however, NOT a full album. So even though I’ll concede that most weren't a fan of Prince's music, this criticism is really just grasping at straws.

And in regards to the reason why he was Bruce's parents' murderer, it's very simple. How do you make an epic even more epic? You turn a formidable foe into a true NEMESIS. So although I do realise that this particular "breath of fresh air" ISN'T doctrine, in my own eyes, it's very much an improvement on the source. I mean seriously, who the [frick] is Joe Chill? The very fact that he could be named ANYTHING or be ANYONE makes him even more worthless. You wanna talk about character development or the lack of it in regards to certain characters' big screen treatments? Well in the very source, Joe Chill was insignificant as a character since he never truly became one of Batman's rogues or even ever was fleshed out. He was a mere aspect of Bruce's childhood, nothing more. I would much rather have Batman be fuelled by the abolishment of the Evil of his childhood that still exists to this day rather than have him doing what he does because his parents were murdered either by accident, or by a starving man having nothing but crime to fall back on or even by a simple youthful indiscretion for that matter. Chill's motivation was never truly fleshed out. Burton gave their death much more meaning to Bruce's torment and motivations in my book, using a killer clown as Bruce's demon; the perfect embodiment of evil. Of course it's a cliché but it's a very powerful one, and one that I find benefits the lore. As for the age thing, Nicholson looked close to his late fifties and Bruce looked close to his late 30ies. The younger Jack looked to be in his early 20ies roughly. It's not much of a stretch really.

As for Burton's BATMAN and everything in that regards... boy, more straw grasping! I'll definitely give you the ONE huge flaw the film has which you mentioned. And that was the goons appearing from nowhere in that bell tower. But for the rest, I feel you're way off:

-The weight his "winch" can carry? REALLY?! You're complaining that in 1989, a man with a car that has a rocket in its ass has an underperforming body winch attached to his belt? Oh noes!!! It's not really his wire that can't support two bodies; it's the tiny mechanical winch that can't pull up two full grown human bodies as effortlessly as one. A bit of realism certainly doesn’t hurt the film especially when it helps the plot.

-Having a bat in a cage is strange to you but a personal museum with dinosaurs and a huge coin in the comics doesn’t? Why? You don't think people could ever be fond of them? I don't see any harm or even lack of logic in there, just more straw grasping.

-Vicky Vale's a slut now because she was absolutely charmed by Bruce and his relationship with Alfred and decided to let go and have an actual good time as well as knockin' some boots? A woman follows her intuition, doesn't mean she'd put out with simply anyone the first day. Jesus!

-He doesn't SLEEP hooked up to his foot harnesses. It's an EXERCISE contrapment (yeah, i know it's not a word). You could LITERALLY SEE HIM moving his arms and NOT SLEEPING. All they did was insinuate that he couldn't sleep at night and had energy to spare. That's PRECISELY why he was sleeping ON THE COUCH and Vale woke him up at a time of day where everyone should be up! Seriously, this criticism's really weak here. I can't believe I had to explain it to you. That's a FAIL on your part, chum. Not the film's.

-As for him dropping roses where his parents died, what if he feels both their souls left this plane from there and aren't trapped in their dead bodies, so what of it? I'll forgive you this one cause to each's own beliefs but yeah... TO EACH'S OWN BELIEFS. Let's not JUDGE and CONDEMN Batman for having different beliefs, shall we? Also, Burton didn't choose to cast mystery on the wrong character, it's Batman. He's supposed to be mysterious. But I’ll give you the fact that a reporter didn't know when he should have. That's a given, yet not something I’d shit on since she really didn’t ask the entire population of Gotham if they knew.

-And lastly, the Alfred debacle where you'd have acted differently than him. When was Alfred simply "Mr. Pennyworth" or even a meagre employee?!?! As if Alfred never cared for Bruce, his well being or even his love life? How could it not even occur to you that he saw Bruce feel in a totally different way for Vicky than he ever has cared to admit about anyone else before in his entire life? Alfred took care of Bruce since the death of his parents. He wasn't just hired the day before he let Vicky in the cave’s door. He's family and KNOWS Bruce. He acted in Bruce's best interest, or so he thought. He is also a human being after all. It's not like he called for an entire press conference in the damn Batcave. And Keaton played a plenty pissed Bruce when he saw Alfred let Vicky in. But out of respect for Vicky being there, i'm sure he saw fit to deal with Alfred's indiscretion later. He WAS under the impression that at any moment, Joker would take the city under siege. And also, it's not like Burton had the script for Batman Returns in his hands while he filmed that scene. It's obvious he meant for both Bruce and Vicky to be together for a long time and not so easily discarded in the sequel.

So in retrospect, I’d have to say that based on your cricisims and film making preferences, you were definitely watching and reviewing the wrong film. You definitely seemed like you didn't want to "get" what Burton meant to film or why he chose to film it in this way. You are certainly entitled to your tastes and opinions like everyone else, but you seemed bent on not wanting this film to stay as near and dear to your heart as it was in your childhood. And I don't need tinted vision to realise that. The film has as many flaws as many films of that time or even in today's standards, which is to say not that many, really. But for everything else in your review that I didn't address, I definitely agree with you.
GraysonsCowl
GraysonsCowl - 12/7/2010, 11:27 AM
KEATON SUCKED AS BATMAN! BE REALISTIC PEOPLE, HE IS 5'6 AND WAY TOO SHORT TO MAKE A BELIEVABLE BATMAN.
YakeTheSnake
YakeTheSnake - 12/7/2010, 11:43 AM
I personally dig Ledger's Joker more than Nicholson's. I always got the feeling that Joker was a more psychological character. And to insinuate that Ledger's Joker wasn't a genious like Nicholson's, is incorrect. TDK Joker put together this elaborate plan from the start, and saw it succeed in the end. I'm not saying I dislike Nicholson's Joker, because I don't.
And, anyone who says that they wouldn't be frightened of either Christian Bale's Batman or Michael Keaton's Batman is full of sh*t. I think if anyone dressed as Batman and attacked me, I'd p*ss my pants.

@RorMachine: I never said there was anything wrong with it, just a bit shocking.... GIGGITY!

@Bigbywolf: I thought Clooney did alright as Bruce, but was just an awful Batman. Even Clooney knows it. He is the only actor that can survive such an atrocious film, look what happened to the rest... OH, wait, you can't. They fell off the face of the Earth, LOL.

@LOL: Excellently worded, sir. Thanks for making me look terrible by comparison... ;)

MatchesMalone
MatchesMalone - 12/7/2010, 12:16 PM
What Shaman said. :)

I don't see why people always have to take sides on the Bat-films. I mean, I own all of them (yes, even Batman and Robin), and I find a different kind of enjoyment from both Burton's films and Nolan's.

Burton = Highly stylized Gotham and more comic style Batmobile and gadgets.

Nolan = More of a realistic, i.e. "believable" Gotham and gadgets.

Keaton = More of the "brooding" type of Bruce Wayne, way better Batman voice.

Bale = More of the "drunken playboy" type of Bruce Wayne.

Keaton = Way better Batsuit, but not as big as he should be.

Bale = The right size, but I hate that awful Batsuit.

Michael Gough = More convincing as Alfred in his look and voice.

Michael Caine = Love the guy, great actor, but I just can't buy a Cockney Alfred. Imo, Alfred should have a proper British accent.

Nicholson = Origin and look was much more in line with the comics. He had the "joke" part of the Joker down pat.

Ledger = Brilliant performance. He had the "scary" Joker thing going to a tee.

I could go on and on like this forever, but you guys see my point. There is room for both versions in my book. No one single Batman movie is perfect. In a perfect world, we could combine all of the elements of all the films we like into one, giant, super-Batmovie, but this world ain't perfect. It's the only one we have, though, and same goes with the Batman movies. Some are good, some are bad, all are enternaining for different reasons ( yes, even Batman and Robin). Sit back, pop some corn, and enjoy the ride! :)

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