EDITORIAL: The Dark Knight Rises: puzzles, patterns, and structure; insights to the upcoming film and why we could still get The Riddler

EDITORIAL: The Dark Knight Rises: puzzles, patterns, and structure; insights to the upcoming film and why we could still get The Riddler

For Christopher Nolan, the third time will be a charm...

Editorial Opinion
By 48and2 - Nov 19, 2010 03:11 PM EST
Filed Under: The Dark Knight Rises

Before the latest news regarding The Dark Knight Rises excluding The Riddler as the most likely villain to take the place of The Joker; I had felt the film would present a perfect opportunity to explore the inner workings of Batman's uber detective skills. Which is not to say the chance doesn't still exist. What seems a sure bet though, and why those who like their Comic Book Movies to be deep and meaningful and artful can rest easy, is that with Inception, we seem to have witnessed a crystallization of one of
this century's premier filmmakers.



Firstly, it's not my intention to read too much into things or get deep into archetyping or try and give anyone a lesson in "sacred" geometry. However, I think it's safe to say, after Nolan's successful filmic experiments into the realm of science fiction - with Memento, The Prestige, and Inception setting the tone, and him naming his production company Syncopy with a maze as the logo, he has a definite interest in and tends to consciously explore structure, patterns, and puzzles - on a very high level; more so than most directors past or present. In theory, most of are constantly using pattern recognition in everything we do in life, but it's very often a subconscious venture. When a person becomes aware of these things and begins to consciously manipulate archetypes; especially in writing or art, things can become very interesting and we end up with masterpieces such as Watchmen, The Dark Knight, and Inception.

Another thing we can now safely say about Christopher Nolan is that, after Inception, he's successfully joined the very small group of mass market film makers that have pushed the combination of digital effects with story and character integrity and originality in a very rich and pioneering way - along with, and arguably even surpassing, maybe James Cameron and Peter Jackson. And of course, Alan Moore, and Frank Miller are masters in the literary area.

With these things in mind, let's take a look at what patterns seem to be emerging from how his interim films seem to influence his return to the Gotham Bat.



Now The Prestige was an adaptation from a novel, but the very clever thing that the Nolan's did was bring forth magic's allegorical and metaphorical meaning toward the standard structure of a movie script and a distilled film itself; the three acts, and how if done well, they function essentially as a pledge, a turn, and a prestige - sucking a viewer into not knowing exactly what just hit them. It strikes me that Inception was quite possibly a bit of a perfected Nolan "magic trick,"
if you will.

The thing that has prompted me to use write this, is that the structure of TDK was undoubtedly, I believe, at least a little bit influenced by The Prestige. It goes without saying that for most of us, everything we go through leaves its imprint and influences what we do next, and intuitively how we approach life in general.

There was alot of talk and analysis about the Greek style triumverate formed between Batman, Dent, and Gordon in TDK - I believe this is probably pretty dead on. It appears, in fact as a subjective archetypal exploration of the villain, the man in the middle, and the hero; then there is the love triangle, as well as the triangle formed amongst Bruce Wayne, Alfred, and Lucius Fox; so it is, in a sense a triangle of interweaving triangles - which in nature becomes one of the strongest architectural forms. High end manipulation of structure is again, nothing new in literature, or film, or art, but I will reiterate, I believe, when it becomes conscious is when the artist/viewer ascends to a heightened level of perception.

The Nolans' partner in crime on the Batman franchise, David Goyer has also mentioned in many interviews that he tends to adhere to the so-called "rule of threes." As most of us here know, this is why movies tend to come in three acts, and trilogies. A side note, but something that still applies to these ideas is what George Lucas has done with Star Wars, and while he, or another party, could very well redeem that franchise with the final trilogy of trilogies. I actually believe Hollywood will eventually get out of this whole "reboot," "remake," "re-whatever" trend, and gravitate toward "tilogies of trilogies." With the usual rule of third in the trilogy of a given film, becoming stale and exploitative - there is always this truly spectacular potential for greatness lingering in the air, and why I think so many of us are so let down by what we've seen so far in this genre, and with the final film in a trilogy in general.

Please Hollywood: Do not hand off the capstones to brilliant franchises to directors like Brett Ratner, or Michael Bay, with only visions of exploding cars and sugared boobs dancing in their heads. Leave this area of expertise up to ComicBookMovie.com's own Teabag.



I do firmly believe if more people in Hollywood became conscious of this, we'd end up with many a more satisfying a dollar spent at the box office. It would pay for everyone involved.

The one thing I find truly eye opening, is that if you go back and observe Nolan's filmography and evolution as a director, and how he is so great at playing around with unfurling interlocking fragments and structurally exploring archetypes, his experimentation seems to have been evolving. And for those who enjoy architecture and puzzles, there are other useful forms to play around with, such as pentagons, the lucky number seven, nine, and twelve. There have been some great franchises that make use of a five fold episodical structure, most notably Dirty Harry.

Here are a few things I feel offer some insight to what we may potentially get:

1. Cypher is mentioned and referenced to over and over, many times in The Prestige, and Memento, and Inception; they are basically gigantic relatively complex filmic puzzles.

2. The Syncopy logo is a maze/puzzle

3. Three is a highly valued commodity by the Nolan's and Goyer, and if they're going to pull a rabbit out of their hat, it's going to be on the third try. Nothing about it will be wasted.

4. I expect Nolan is still a little weary of this sequel, because he lost two friends and two irreplaceable contributing talents, but they will most likely be paid great homage to. I don't know if that's what Inception was doing, but it seemed that some very existential and depressed themes were creeping up in there - primarily that of loss.

5. Having Hans Zimmer on board wanting to score the Riddler (I know I keep repeating this in my articles), and with Nolan's now concretely apparent interest in cyphers, puzzles, mazes, structure, patterns, mathematics, archetypes, architecture, and ordering chaos in general - The Riddler seems beyond an obvious given for the third act...

6. Those of us who want The Riddler may still get him; Those of us who are adamantly opposed to The Riddler are likely to see something done with him and his riddles that drastically exceeds our expectations, makes it worth our whiles, and just blows our minds.

Not that it's all done on purpose, or even should be, as he and any great filmmaker understand and is personally quoted "that he likes to leave
his movies greatly open to interpretation," "he likes to leave the viewer walking around with lots of ideas rattling around in their head."

With all this said, bear in mind, there is also a great chance we may see Nolan explore an interweaving 5, 7, 9, or 12 fold character structure or story - something truly innovative.

So where this leaves us with The Dark Knight Rises? This time 'round, I think we're in for something potentially unparalleled, because, I'll say it again and again and again, Nolan seems to be so highly conscious of these ideas. TDKR may shape up to be one of the greatest films in history - and even The Riddler remains a distinct possibility. It will be the top of his pyramid afterall... his crowning glory; and if there is a person out there who can pull off a modern trilogy successfully, it is this man/these man. There is no doubt in my mind Christopher Nolan will now demonstrate his Prestige and teach the uninitiated how a modern trilogy is supposed to be done.



Ratner, and Bay, take note... this is going to be real movie magic.


THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Star Tom Hardy On Whether He'd Return As Bane For Upcoming Deathstroke Team-Up Movie
Related:

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Star Tom Hardy On Whether He'd Return As Bane For Upcoming Deathstroke Team-Up Movie

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Star Joseph Gordon-Levitt Reveals Whether There Was Ever Plans For A ROBIN Spin-Off
Recommended For You:

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Star Joseph Gordon-Levitt Reveals Whether There Was Ever Plans For A ROBIN Spin-Off

DISCLAIMER: As a user generated site and platform, ComicBookMovie.com is protected under the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and "Safe Harbor" provisions.

This post was submitted by a user who has agreed to our Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. ComicBookMovie.com will disable users who knowingly commit plagiarism, piracy, trademark or copyright infringement. Please CONTACT US for expeditious removal of copyrighted/trademarked content. CLICK HERE to learn more about our copyright and trademark policies.

Note that ComicBookMovie.com, and/or the user who contributed this post, may earn commissions or revenue through clicks or purchases made through any third-party links contained within the content above.

1 2
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 4:22 PM
It's going to make The Dark Knight look like it was written in crayon, you guys just watch.
Ibz
Ibz - 11/19/2010, 5:06 PM
okay then
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 5:21 PM
@Ibz There will be people that get what I'm saying here, and people who don't;

simple as that dude lol
LEEE777
LEEE777 - 11/19/2010, 6:02 PM
48 @ I got what your saying dude, and cool read!

Fingers crossed we get Riddler, better than Strange an deff more better than another Catwoman!

I like the movies of what you call masterpieces, because they are, you got huge taste!

Damn I want DEADSHOT still in it though dammit lol.

GR8 stuff and thumbs up! :)
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 6:23 PM
Not talking about you Lee, I know you get it man =) Wait 'till teabag sees it =P

I'm alright with whatever direction he takes it. I just trust him. Don't we all?

I think we will get Catwoman though.

Whoever put it on front, thank you much guys. Had this article in mind for months. Sorry for the typos lol...
Greenman
Greenman - 11/19/2010, 6:32 PM
Very valid points about how/why Nolan would use the Riddler for the TDKR. I wouldn't mind seeing him as the bad guy, but I just have a gut feeling he wont be used... Hopefully I'm wrong.
AlexDeLarge87
AlexDeLarge87 - 11/19/2010, 6:40 PM
If the villains are any of these characters im happy!:) Talia Al Ghul, Red Hood (He could work if he would be vengeful son of Ra´s Al Ghul), Bane (Javier Bardem), Hugo Strange, Hush, Black Mask, Deadshot, Max Cort, Anarky (Adult version. Damien Lewis would be great Anarky), The Penguin, The Riddler, Rupert Thorne, The Joker (Would be cool to see him return), Firefly, Great White Shark, David Cain, Scarecrow (he is still alive), Clayface (The original was just a man who used different masks) and Two-Face.
Vafrous
Vafrous - 11/19/2010, 6:42 PM
Nolan would make the Riddler very interesting...But I still want Black Mask or Deadshot

Imagine the viral marketting for the film if it had the Riddler...
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 6:43 PM
haha I knew I'd get that guys... I told my bud, watch: they will be saying "you're suckin' him off." If this keeps up, I may contract an Inception... har har...

this is not just about Nolan though... it's about very big picture things guys. Love it or hate it, that is how it is. I'm really not getting pretentious here, but Nolan's tapped in. TDKR is a cyclic title, which is everything and everything - very deep philosophy. It's going to blow our minds.

Next time you guys get a front pager, I'll make sure to come over and say hi =)
Denn1s
Denn1s - 11/19/2010, 6:48 PM
except for heath, who is the other lost friend?
mstargel
mstargel - 11/19/2010, 6:54 PM
nice article
LEEE777
LEEE777 - 11/19/2010, 6:55 PM
Superguy1591 @ [frick] HUSH lol, too soon, we ain't even had ROBIN yet lol?!?

48 @ Lol, it'll be cool as long as you don't talk SMALLVILLE to him! ; D

Yeah I hope your wrong 'bout Catwoman, worst charater to ever put in it I reckon, okay there is a few worst lol!
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 7:01 PM
yeah hell Lee, I don't know what's going to happen lol... I was talking to my buddy here and he wants Talia. Agree with you that it's too soon for Hush.

@mstargel thanks =)
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 7:05 PM
oh talk Smallvill to him... I got it

so hey dude, what do you think of Smallville?

lol jk
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 7:22 PM
%$!@ off Grant =)
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 7:25 PM
Main thing with Hush is exactly what Lee said - I mean there's basically what 80 years of prior characters to choose from. Not that Hush isn't spectacular, but most purists and I agree, that the other characters deserve their just desserts.

@brazilianbatman pretty much like those ideas. I've always likes the Blackmask idea, and Deadshot. It will be a triangle =P
Organa1978
Organa1978 - 11/19/2010, 7:40 PM
No Riddler and No Catwoman,that´s all.
jokerking
jokerking - 11/19/2010, 7:44 PM
nice article, i was very happy to read your observations on threes. i agree with your theory onthe use of puzzles in rises but i feel nolan will do thid in a more abstract and personal way as opposed to the slightly more objective riddler and while i would not at all be opposed to seeing our dear edward nashton im rooting for hugo strange. with that character it fits with the pre exsisting world with crane no longer running arkham and seeing more arkham is something i am not at all opposed to
eleven59
eleven59 - 11/19/2010, 7:55 PM
some deep thoughts 48. i still can picture in my mind, a very clever nolanized re-imagination of the riddler who doesnt even need to be the main villain; could be the villain behind the scenes orchestrating everything to get batman back in the good graces of the people.. bc his ego is big enough to believe that only batman is almost his equal in brains.. he needs batman trying to stop him, not wasting his energies on the run...
SpideyDude
SpideyDude - 11/19/2010, 7:57 PM
well written piece and good research
48and2
48and2 - 11/19/2010, 8:16 PM
@jokerking very nice post. I wouldn't have any problem with those ideas. I love the portrayal of Scarecrow in Nolan's movies, but I feel it's probably time to move on. Maybe a small cameo like in TDK, and knowing that old Nolan nepotism he'll give him a part anyway.

edit: missed a few posts there guys due to beer lol. thanks guys... so glad some of you get it and enjoy it.

Plato: "whoever invented beer is a wise man indeed"

I will check back on this later. Now off to watch Scott Pilgrim for the first time, I know I know. you guys have fun. Don't go too hard on me =P

Where the hell are you Teabag? I paid you an homage... =P
BFGLOOM
BFGLOOM - 11/19/2010, 8:50 PM
He said NO Riddler already.........
juggy4711
juggy4711 - 11/19/2010, 8:52 PM
48and2 I love the avatar, and I think I get the references from your username -2 and ahead of me. That said I guess I need to read your article a few more times and go back and watch BB and TDK to see if I catch it. Cause at this point I'm not picking up what you're throwing down.
nearmint67
nearmint67 - 11/19/2010, 8:56 PM
I suspect what we'll get, in general terms, is both a completion and a new beginning. By the end of the film, we will see Bruce Wayne finally "owning" his personal demons and free to be Batman in a much more effective way. It would not completely shock me, however, if the end of the film brings us the death of the Flying Graysons. This would sort of bring the whole series full circle to the beginning of the first film, with young man consumed with loss and grief, a patient, yet firm mentor, and the first steps on his "hero's journey." No Robin, Just a crushed and devastated Dick Grayson. Cyclical storytelling is a staple of heroic epics, and it seems that this is the type of pattern you refer to here.
Superman8
Superman8 - 11/19/2010, 10:29 PM
@ 48

Great article sir. Obviously well thought out, and it was written well, i understood it.

If anyone deserves this kind of praise or attention in the CBM world, or movie world in general for that matter, it's Chris Nolan.

I don't think I've read any of your other articles if you have any, but i wouldnt mind reading them in the future.
GusGalaxy
GusGalaxy - 11/19/2010, 10:36 PM
This article is brilliant, I too believe in the rule of trilogies! I have full faith in Nolan going all out for this one too, but honestly, I would in fact be less then pleased with Catwoman, and I still have a good feeling as well for some reason about The Riddler.. after all, he did say NO to "Edward NYGMA", but nothing about Edward Nashton. I mean, think about it, it could be typical Nolan playing with his words getting us thinking, and Nashton DID write an article in ARG for The Dark Knight. Edward Nashton may not be the full fledged MAIN VILLAIN HERE, but seriously, these could be a chance of a major overlooking here, imagine how big the press would be for everyone being stumped like that?
Vital
Vital - 11/20/2010, 12:07 AM
Hush is a origin story, he would have been amazing in Batman Begins replacing Rachel Dawes, but it didn't happen that way. Of course I've love to see the character no doubt but there isn't time for them to explain him (out of nowhere) without any set up from previous films. You can bring all these other characters in from nowhere, since they aren't tied to Bruce's childhood like Hush was. That would require a lot of backstory (and wouldn't make sense considering where the last movie left off). Plot wise, The Riddler and Hush don't make sense. Batman is being hunted, why would either of them be in it? Batman solving puzzles while being hunted? He did that already in Begins with Scarecrow and finding out about Ras and his plan etc. They aren't going to repeat that. Some of you people are so blind it's amazing. The Joker from TDK= The Riddler 2.0 lol. They were a mix of both characters in one. How can you not see that? The Joker doesn't do complex traps and games, but The Joking Riddler did lol. Moving on to people who make sense PLOT WISE. PLOT PEOPLE, PLOT. Hugo Strange's rumor is far more believable than a Joker copycat (Riddler).

Characters that fit- Black Mask, Deadshot, (your mom), and a Penguin cameo as the new mayor.
FutureCBMHero
FutureCBMHero - 11/20/2010, 12:18 AM
I like everything about your article except for the references to The Riddler. It seems like your grasping and hoping too much. Really great insight thought on technique, and I'm upset you beat me to this bc I have been wanting to go through his films and do something similar, kudos good sir.
JimmyD0ntCare
JimmyD0ntCare - 11/20/2010, 12:22 AM
@48and2, good piece. Now my two cents. The Riddler is a pretty boring throw away character IMO. He is not a physical challenge for Batman, great villain right? Here's a clue,nothing happens, here's a clue, more nothing. Nolan also said "No Riddler" not Nigma. But whatever with that. Besides if you want to get away from the "re-boot" then why re-boot charaters that have been in earlier Batman movies? So then can be done better the second time, its already been done.
I would totally like to see a hardcore mobster-like Batman movie. Think about it, you will all get your Black Mask and we would also get to see the more great seedy underworld of Gotham. If its characters that have been done before you want, then The Penguin can be done as the Mob boss he is.
Now dont think i'm one of those dudes that gets all sweaty while watching The Godfather, because I don't actually enjoy it. Okay thats all I guess. Good artical and keep it up. The Riddler is lame and dark mob villains.
48and2
48and2 - 11/20/2010, 12:45 AM
Thanks for the kudos and compliments guys. I'll get at your comments tomorrow.

Most of you guys are hitting the nail on the head. Honestly, I don't care if The Riddler ends up in the movie, but I do think Inception opened up the door for a hell of a progression with that character.

I had some gigantic post - actually it was the one part of the body of the article I had forgotten. It's very relevant, and I think you guys will enjoy it. I'm just too tired to rewrite the whole damn thing right now. I basically noticed what appears to be a very cool structured metaphore in Zimmer's score to Inception, that may carry over to TDKR. Maybe some of you guys also noticed it, and could throw it up - it's at the end when the core characters are getting off the jet.

@Jimmy ^ who is my friend sitting on the couch next to me... We've been discussing this stuff all night, and I'm converting him into a cbm addict =P The Riddler is the exact antithesis of the Joker - he is structured evil vs. chaotic evil. He is not throw away, and I think many people will dispute you on that any day of the week.

Jimmy here thinks the term "Nolanverse" is generic and relatively useless, but I think most of you guys will agree it's become an almost wholey accepted pop culture term for "reality" based comic book movies?

And by the way, I don't think you get all sweaty while watching The Godfather; I know you do! then you steal my lotion and my tv and run off to your bedroom and lock your door =P
BattyGirl
BattyGirl - 11/20/2010, 1:13 AM
I think it's going to be a city in chaos as the Joker has attracted every nut job out there to don costumes to try to make names for themselves as the new Joker. We will see quite a few from the rogue gallery. The Main Villain will be???
skidz
skidz - 11/20/2010, 1:16 AM
After a comicbook movie that received Academy Award nominations, how do you top that? With the Dark Knight, audiences got a more internal look at the Caped Crusader. The Riddler would allow for a even deeper look into the mind and psyche of Bruce Wayne without watering down the action.
aroyalspider
aroyalspider - 11/20/2010, 1:23 AM
Am I the only person here who didn't find TDK entertaining? I really thought it was a horribly boring movie. It just seemed so stale to me, stale and and unmoving.
Vital
Vital - 11/20/2010, 1:41 AM
says the goofy picture guy lol
aroyalspider
aroyalspider - 11/20/2010, 2:16 AM
Seriously? I don't get to state my opinion about the movie without receiving base remarks? I said nothing about anybody else's opinion, don't attempt to berate me for not enjoying this piece of cinematography that I found absolutely bland. I would like to point this out though to anyone who likes to state the film was nominated for numerous oscars, none of the nominations were for Best Picture or Best Director... sorry I guess some other folks didn't think it was that great either....
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 11/20/2010, 3:10 AM
Great article, very well written. I don't think we will see The Riddler though. As cryptic as Nolan can be I doubt he would ever be outright misleading. If he said no Riddler my guess is he meant it. Also, he sucks! I know it, obviously Nolan does too. A chance to show off detective skills does not a 2/3 hour movie make. Riddler just isn't interesting enough, in any incarnation, to maintain a solid plot imo. I think Catwoman would be however..as long as theer was another villain too.
FutureCBMHero
FutureCBMHero - 11/20/2010, 4:21 AM
spider,

Just for the record the Academy doesn't get it right all the time. if you look back a solid 15yrs ago, Babe, the film about a sheep herding, talking pig, was nominated for Best Picture. Films that weren't nominated include Se7en, The Usual Suspects, and Toy Story. But those really weren't that good anyway.
Organa1978
Organa1978 - 11/20/2010, 4:52 AM
He said no Riddler.
So no Edward Nashton neither Edward Nygma.
The Riddler is out of TDKR...definately!
Accept it!
1 2
View Recorder