Did the Joker Have a Plan?

Did the Joker Have a Plan?

The Dark Knight rarely receives too much criticism, especially for the main villain, but there is one thing some fans complain about: Did the Joker Have a Plan?

Editorial Opinion
By DannRamm113 - Feb 20, 2015 10:02 AM EST
Filed Under: The Dark Knight

There is rarely any criticism given to 2008's "The Dark Knight".  Heath Ledger's Joker tops many villain lists, and villain potrayal lists.  And one of the very few criticisms that I have seen is about how the Joker did things.  Or rather, how he managed to do such horrible things and not die?

It's actually a good question.  It seems as though everything he planned went his way with no bumps in the road.  How did he know the school bus would be there on time? Or that Gambol wouldn't kill him first?  Or that he wouldn't be killed by cops in the chase scene?  Well, I have thought about it, and here is what I think: I think it was more of a matter that he didn't care.


In one of his last scenes, Batman threw the Joker off of a building.  His reaction?  Laughing.  He accepted his fate.  Then he said something, "Do you think I would risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul...?"  That told me, that not only did he accept his fate, but he planned for it.  And I think that's how it went in most cases, he had a back-up plan for if he had died throughout the movie.  Or perhaps, a plan for if he had lived.

Another thing of note is the bank robbery scene.  Did he plan for the manager of the bank to start shooting?  He hid.  Then tested to see if the bank manager had any more of his bullets by sending his henchman.  Did he plan for this?  No.  BUT, it's fair to think that he planed to die.  That is something not seen as much in comic book movies or movies in general: the villain planning to die.  It's happened, just not seen as much, notable examples being Jigsaw in Saw (a very underrated franchise in my opinion, but that's besides the point).  Even after he died in Saw 3, he managed to orchastrate, through a line of plot holes, the next four films in the franchise.  That's how I think the Joker operated, and had Heath Ledger not died after filming, perhaps we'd have seen a different "The Dark Knight Rises".

One of the many great things about the Joker in The Dark Knight is that you know almost nothing about him.  Or his plans/goals.  That could be the reason why that wasn't spelled out, because it didn't need to be.  And in many ways, it was brilliant to imply that no matter what happened, he was ready.  Who knows, maybe if he was shot by his henchman during the bank robbery scene a bomb would blow up all of Gotham (exageration, I know).

So there it is.  The greatest comic book movie villain, analyzed.  I hope you all enjoyed reading and if you did, show some love and hit the red thumb!  Agree, disagree, comment bellow!  Thank you for reading, peace out.
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SummersClan
SummersClan - 2/20/2015, 11:01 AM
That was the point. Joker lived off creating anarchy and chaos, and people losing their inhibitions. It's one of the reasons he laughed towards the end of the film when he was sent falling by Batman, he thought he was going to let loose and become like him. All he wanted, as Alfred said was to see the world burn.
Peel
Peel - 2/20/2015, 11:11 AM
His sole plan was to drive 'Gotham's Finest' to the brink of insanity. He thought he had bumped off Gordon, he had plans for Harvey his 'ace in the hole', and ultimately decided it would take much longer to break Batman. Hell he might have thought that he was getting enough fun off fighting Batman and went along with it.

But he definitely had a plan in relation to Harvey Dent. He knew Batman would rescue Rachel personally as he loved her, so he purposefully switched the locations around for Batman to save Harvey and for Rachael to die - he wanted to drive them both mad. Then he blew up the GCPD and wanted to slowly drive everyone else around him mad - he then did this on a large scale by trying to get Gotham's Finest vs Gotham's Unlawful to kill each other whilst Harvey went on his maddened crusade. That was Joker's plan all along;

To bring out the worse in everyone

And did he do that? You could argue yes, he did bring out the worse in everyone, but eventually certain people like Gordon and Batman moved on over time in TDKR.
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 2/20/2015, 11:11 AM
Yep, I think it was a combination of the Joker being extremely skilled at adapting to unexpected things on the fly...plus the fact that, yeah, he pretty much had plans and backup plans and backup plans to THOSE backup plans, etc. And I'm sure he wanted to live long enough to set things up so that Gotham couldn't come back from it (living long enough to corrupt Harvey Dent, for instance), but after a certain point, he was comfortable with WHATEVER happened because, by then, it was too late to stop everything he put into motion, even if he was killed.

Think of when he was visiting Harvey in the hospital, and he gave him his gun. Dent let the coin choose if the Joker would live or die, and I'm 100% certain that, had the coin fell the right way, the Joker would've let Harvey kill him. Because by then, his plans were too far along to be stopped. By killing the Joker, Harvey would've proved that he crossed an unethical line. And as Batman and Gordon say in the very last scene, this meant that the Joker "won".
Peel
Peel - 2/20/2015, 11:39 AM
I could've sworn at the hospital scene with the coin and gun, Joker had his hands wrapped around the gun in a certain way, where if Harvey had to shoot Joker, Joker either turned the safety on or would've shot Harvey first. I can't remember it exactly or explain it, but I remember reading an article somehow detailing the amazement at how the Joker had his fingers on the gun in a certain way.
6of13
6of13 - 2/20/2015, 12:55 PM
ThunderKat
ThunderKat - 2/20/2015, 1:00 PM
First, let me say thank you. This is a nicely put take on something mostly untouched on this site. I agree with parts. I mostly agree with Alfred's assertion regarding the Joker.

Can anyone explain what happened while Batman was "catching" Rachel?

Joker decided no Harvey, possibly dead Batman, time to roll...
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 2/20/2015, 1:03 PM
@TheGoddamnPeel I think you're referring to this?



I'm glad you brought that up, because it's a nice little fan theory that took off for some reason, but it's just not true. You can clearly see in several shots in that scene that the Joker's finger isn't on the hammer at all. It's just a case of people overthinking something that wasn't really meant to be. "Tricking" Harvey Dent like that would've served no purpose for the Joker. It doesn't really fit in with anything else he does, IMO.

I'm pretty sure he was being as straightforward as possible. The fact that the Joker is deranged enough to potentially allow Dent to shoot him in the head because of a coin flip adds SO much depth to the character.
QuestionDAnswer
QuestionDAnswer - 2/20/2015, 1:23 PM
I really love the theory this guy has on the Joker's origin, because it's scary when you think about it. It's scary just knowing that the Joker might be right, that he is perfectly sane and that we might just be the one's who are really crazy.

Y2H
Y2H - 2/20/2015, 1:35 PM
Joker just wanted to watch the world burn. His speeches and mind games influenced a lot of villains. I'm a passionate WWE Fan and I can tell that Bray Wyatt studied Joker to help him become the WWE Superstar that he is today! :



Carl
Carl - 2/20/2015, 2:10 PM

it took way to much disbelief to buy into him doing most of the crimes he pulled,
I couldnt take the mental patients taking down the huge black gangsters seriously or him being the only one unaffected by the explosion in the cop shop.
really sloppy writing covered up by good direction.

(the same goes for the entirety of tdkr)
kong
kong - 2/20/2015, 4:15 PM
This article is kind of saying stuff I feel like everyone knew, or assumed. At least I did.

And I was watchin TDK last week and paid close attention to when he put the gun to his head and I saw that based on where his hand is, Harvey Dent wouldn't pulled the trigger and killed him. This feeling rushed over me, I just then understood how much he didn't care. I had figured it as a part of his character before, but never to that extent. I can't describe the feeling, almost haunted and intrigued at the same time.
DannRamm113
DannRamm113 - 2/20/2015, 5:30 PM
@SoulofWakanda

Well, here's the thing, he never thought he was Dent. He said "For a second there I thought you really were Dent" But, he knew that the real Batman wouldn't turn himself in that easily, confirming to himself it wasn't. But, then again, he didn't care. Even if Harvey was Batman, he was about to get blown up.
MileHighRonin
MileHighRonin - 2/20/2015, 8:22 PM
No need to explain this to people. If they do not understand just how intelligent and methodical the Joker is, than they must ASSume no conscience means no intelligence.

Just cause he has no regard for consequences, and puts his faith in violence does not mean he is stupid. The man outsmarts Batman a lot, Dark Knight is no idiot.

The Joker is one of my all time favorite characters. He is no different than all of us, we think it and he does it. We all have a Joker in us. That side that wants the rest of the world to burn, violence is easy and fun.

Spock0Clock
Spock0Clock - 2/20/2015, 10:20 PM
I loved the Dark Knight the first time I watched it, and maybe the second or the third (I honestly don't remember), but eventually the amount of planning and contingencies and overthinking and coincidences required for the Joker to get anything done just get irritating to me.

Ledger's performance is great. I just wish Nolan didn't try to make literally everything he did have three or four layers of "you know that I know that you know..."



Just have Harvey and Rachel's bombs go off when the door of the other location is opened. No timer, just cause-effect. Don't spend 5 minutes having Batman do bullshit forensics on bullets just to lead him to a pointless dead end.
Spock0Clock
Spock0Clock - 2/20/2015, 10:23 PM
Also, wasn't it the Joker's gun in the hospital? My memory is a bit hazy, but couldn't those bullets have been duds?
DrKinsolving
DrKinsolving - 2/21/2015, 4:08 AM
@dannramm113

One of the Jokers major advantages is that he is amazing in the moment, and planning on the fly and for the short term. At the same time, he can tweak his plans to fit his mood. He's the opposite of Batman, who has short term plans, long term plans, and everything in between. This is one of the reasons why he is such a challenge for Batman. The Batman can't figure the Joker out because The Joker's plans are always changing.

The whole movie also revolves around the notion of "One Bad Day" imo, and The Joker is obsessed with this notion. It's a constant in The Jokers mind, regardless of what he is doing. It's almost like the Joker's religion, that anybody can be corrupted, anybody can change, anybody can go completely insane, all it take is One Bad Day. This is what he did to Harvey Dent.

I'm really hoping that Leto's Joker gives us some classic Joker dialogue. Can't wait to see The Joker on screen again

DrKinsolving
DrKinsolving - 2/21/2015, 4:21 AM
@SoulofWakanda + @dannramm113

"True. But that doesn't explain how he knew what time the bombs would go off when he was prison"

I think your forgetting about all of the corrupt GCPD cops that helped the Joker.

Dent was taken to the location by the car that officer Ramirez put him in.... The Joker could have easily made a phone call right away during the chase scene with the tumbler, and said "Dent isn't Batman, we already have Rachel Dawes at 250, 52nd street, chain Dent up too at Avenue X at Cicero and keep the bombs on the clock."

If you look at it that way, The Joker thought Harvey was Batman, when he figured out he wasn't, he improvised, used his influence over the cops and totally [frick]ed Batman and everyone involved. Then he stalled Batman at the prison until it was almost time for the bombs to go off....

Done.
Pedrito
Pedrito - 2/21/2015, 5:41 AM
He was more of a force of nature, dues ex machina kind of thing than a real flesh character.
He's very one dimensional, but still super awesome and effective. What's cool is that the audience was asked to add dimensions to him, and flesh him out in their heads.

He also had magical powers of planting bombs anywhere anytime, but that made him even more mysterious.
DrKinsolving
DrKinsolving - 2/21/2015, 10:00 AM
@SoulofWakanda

Haha, cool, because I had to think about that one, ha
DannRamm113
DannRamm113 - 2/21/2015, 2:29 PM
@ShadowakaTankD

You gotta try harder. We all like the movie, not just "Nolanites". The only people that hate it are the ones trying to "be cool" and "hate everything popular". As for the comments made about source material:
Detective Batman
Insane joker with no origin
Metamorphosis of two face like in Long Halloween
Most accurate depiction of Gordon.

Batman was awesome. New costume, yes, but still a Batman willing to do anything to Dave people. The joker, while not "definitive", was a great character, the distance being no toys. So, um yeah, try harder to troll you dungbeadle
Squaremaster316
Squaremaster316 - 2/22/2015, 10:05 AM
I know insecure Marveltards desperately want to believe that only Nolanites like Nolan films, even though they've received greater critical acclaim and prodigious awards than anything their company has ever produced from esteemed veterans of cinema.

Get over it, Dude.

The fact that the film is based on Batman or a DC character is irrelevant. It's simply the best quality product of storytelling/film making ever associated with the comic book genre, capping off the most critically lauded trilogy the genre has ever produced.
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