CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER Spoiler In THE AVENGERS?

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER Spoiler In THE AVENGERS?

We know Marvel always like to be ahead of the curve, but did we all miss The Winter Soldier's big twist right in front of us the whole time? It looks like Marvel's malevolent Asgardian god throwing us a hint back in 2012; hit the jump to check it out and throw in your two cents!

Editorial Opinion
By DEVLIN712 - Apr 03, 2014 12:04 PM EST

Let's get one thing straight, if you haven't seen it yet, I'm about to spoil a large plot point from Captain America: The Winter Soldier. You've been warned.

But now that's out of the way, think back to 2012's The Avengers. I'm focusing on a specific speech of Loki's, the Red Ledger speech, here's the scene for the forgetful:

Or for the lazy, here's the transcribed version, with the most important part in bold:

Can you? Can you wipe out that much red? Drakov's daughter, Sao Paulo, the hospital fire?... Barton told me everything. Your ledger is dripping, it's GUSHING red, and you think saving a man no more virtuous than yourself will change anything? This is the basest sentimentality. This is a child at prayer... PATHETIC! You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!... I won't touch Barton. Not until I make him kill you! Slowly, intimately, in every way he knows you fear! And then he'll wake just long enough to see his good work, and when he screams, I'll split his skull! This is MY bargain, you mewling quim!

Remember the scene now? The last thing to add is what's hapenning during the speech, HERE's the time stamp on the video, here's the image:


 
Cap uncovers SHIELD's secret stash of Hydra-tech on the Helicarrier before confronting Nick Fury on the topic. At the time I viewed it as nothing more than  some nice directing/cinematography from King Whedon, but now that we've seen the future, things look a bit different...
When the Sentinel of Libery uncovers SHIELD's dirty little secrets Loki says the following, "You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!" The Avengers lie and kill for liers and killers, thinking that they are good, that they are something different... but they aren't, they are part of SHIELD, Hydra is part of SHIELD.

What do you think? Did the antagonistic Asgard know all along, or was Joss Whedon throwing us a bone, one that would lie dormant for two years? Take what you will from this editorial, it's just a fan fanticising. But sign off your thoughts below, am I on target or have my targeting blades been switched? Say what you need to in the usual place!

More from me:
@DEVLIN712
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DEVLIN712
DEVLIN712 - 4/3/2014, 12:49 PM
Just noticed this was put in news, sorry people, I made a mistake!
Sumitsjc
Sumitsjc - 4/3/2014, 12:54 PM
MrBlackJack

throw this out of your head like that Glass man.
cipher
cipher - 4/3/2014, 12:55 PM
Thumbs up, mate.

:)
Tuuralihn
Tuuralihn - 4/3/2014, 12:55 PM
oh damn, didn't think about that! Good catch!
ruadh
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 12:58 PM
Black Widow is simply a spy, lying and killing...it's nothing more than that. Either way, this makes little difference.
DEVLIN712
DEVLIN712 - 4/3/2014, 1:01 PM
Charlie and MMM
Barton mentions that SHIELD have a lot of enemies, those are the guys who elwere helping Loki
TheManFromMars
TheManFromMars - 4/3/2014, 1:03 PM
Nice foreshadowing
ruadh
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 1:12 PM
So...SHIELD wasn't doing covert espionage assassination type stuff other than the Hydra people?

Makes total sense.
ruadh
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 1:22 PM
"You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!"

This is in reference to working for a covert organization that performs assassinations and espionage. It has absolutely nothing, foreshadowing or not, to do with the Hydra infiltration. Nick Fury is "THE spy", and spies lie and kill.

Loki made absolutely no mention about SHIELD being infiltrated by a rival organization bent on ruling the world, because he had no idea about that.
Pedrito
Pedrito - 4/3/2014, 3:51 PM
I thought the line was "Not until I make him *bleep* you."
ruadh
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 5:13 PM
That is the line, assuming you saw the version where they bleep out "kill".
ChanceX74
ChanceX74 - 4/4/2014, 1:51 AM
The first issue I would have is that, in order for the premise of this editorial to be true, Loki would have to be switching the subject of his monologue mid stream. He's talking about BW directly and this proposes that he suddenly starts speaking about SHIELD for three sentences and then fluidly goes back to speaking on BW directly.

I'm not seeing that.

The other issue is period placement in an effort to validate a false perception by altering the sentence structure: "something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!"

The word "but" usually doesn't start a sentence unless it's in response to something so that should read: "something that makes up for the horrors, but they are a part of you and they will never go away!"

The statement references horrors as a part of BW, not Hydra being part of SHIELD.
MightyZeus
MightyZeus - 4/4/2014, 3:28 AM
That was an interesting read.
I think you may be right.
MsDarkPhoenix
MsDarkPhoenix - 4/4/2014, 6:03 AM
I'll give you a thumbs up DEV but I'll read it tomorrow after I see TWS because I have already read too many spoilers...
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 4/4/2014, 6:14 AM
When you look at that scene by itself, then yes, it could look like this.

However, when you take it in the context of the rest of the movie (The Avengers), it was very obviously only meant to be him talking about how SHIELD was using the Tesseract and old Hydra weaponry (which was also created with the Tesseract), to make their own super weapons.

In fact, right after that scene, Cap goes and confronts Fury about it.

Thats all that scene was meant to be, and it was addressed in The Avengers.
enggarb
enggarb - 4/4/2014, 8:21 AM
I don't know...what I know that TWS is the best Marvel movie....better than Avengers..
ruadh
ruadh - 4/4/2014, 8:58 AM
@ChanceX74

Well put.

@CorndogBurglar

Also well put.
Ace101
Ace101 - 4/4/2014, 11:39 PM
this is something that crossed my mind when i finished watching CA:TWS. but that particular scene wasnt one of the connections i made between avengers and CA:TWS. these are my thoughts:

1. Shields Phase 2 plan which was shield uses the tesserect to build WMDs same as ww2 hydra.

2. Black widows comment during the argument scene onboard the helicarrier that refers potential threats:
Natasha Romanoff: [all arguing in the lab] "Are you really that dense? S.H.I.E.L.D. monitors potential threats."
Bruce Banner: "Captain America is on threat watch?"
Natasha Romanoff: "We ALL are!"

3: Shield/ council sending the order to nuke NY could have brought hydras plans to fruition.

oh and this is something that doesnt relate to CA:TWS at all but when chitauri all died phantom menace style i think its was because thanos had ordered each soldier to be installed with a kill switch, that was activated when the ship blew up. such as if there is no signal from ship to soldier the kill switch will be deployed therefore no soldier can be captured and interrogated. sounds like something thanos would do.
TheDuck
TheDuck - 4/5/2014, 9:36 AM
Good Work Dev, love all your stuff
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