This interview was originally published on TheRingReport.com.
Black Canary is a comic book character who has earned a reputation as one of the most lethal hand-to-hand fighters in the DC Universe. Combined with her trademark Canary Cry, she's a force to be reckoned with and is widely considered one of DC's best hand-to-hand combatants.
This Wednesday, November 27, award-winning writer Tom King and artist Ryan Sook place Black Canary in the match of the millennium in the new six-issue series, Black Canary: Best of the Best.
In that, the superhero will go one-on-one with the villainous Lady Shiva to decide who is truly the, well, best of the best. There's much more to the story than that, of course, with the in-ring action - that's right, this is no normal superhero battle - juxtaposed with flashbacks chronicling the original Black Canary's story and Dinah being trained for this fight by her mother.
We've read the first two issues of Black Canary: Best of the Best and they're nothing short of phenomenal. WWE and the world of professional wrestling is a huge influence on the story and fight that plays out here, resulting in another series from King redefining an iconic character.
Earlier this month, we got to sit down with Tom and Ryan to learn more about what makes this series so perfect for pro wrestling and comic book fans alike, learning how that world inspired the series and what they both enjoyed about working on this story.
They also discuss how they combined what we love about WWE and DC to create a compelling, action-packed new adventure...which would make for one heck of a movie.
You can read the full interview with Black Canary: Best of the Best's A-List creative team below.
To start with you Tom, you’ve redefined characters like Vision and Supergirl, but why Black Canary and why in this particular setting that’s so inspired by wrestling?
Tom: It goes back almost 10 years to a Batman retreat we did where we were talking about who would win in a fight. It was one of those great super nerd questions you have with your friends; it just so happens that my friends write Batman and Superman. They all think they have some expertise, but of course, I won the conversation [Laughs]. What it eventually boiled down to as we were talking about who would win, someone said, ‘Well, Lady Shiva would win every fight. She’s the best of the best. She’s the number one, undefeated champion.’ I was like, ‘Who’s number two?’ There was some discussion and it was generally considered that Black Canary was the number two but had fallen behind. That stuck with me for years and years and, eventually, my son became WWE-obsessed and wanted to delve into his life. I watched WWE and loved how they could tell so many stories in the four corners of the ring. That conversation came back to me and I thought, ‘Who would be the best two people to put in this ring?’ This is WrestleMania. It’s the top challenger and the top champion, and that’s Shiva and Canary. That’s where it got started. It’s called ‘The Best of the Best’ because they’re the two best. It’s not the subtlest title I’ve ever done [Laughs].
And Ryan, when it came to bringing Black Canary into the ring alongside Lady Shiva, how challenging was it to choreograph the fights and how was it working with Tom on that?
Ryan: Well, Tom wrote these great scenes [Laughs] with plenty of room. He’ll joke, but he actually wrote great scenes there. The fight choreography obviously needed a lot of research, so for this fight, even though it’s a superhero book, there are no powers. It’s stripped away so we can get into the real nastiness of knuckle-and-bone fighting. I used WWE and MMA fights as research. Trying to choreograph that was hard because to make it come to life on the page is a totally different act than watching it on a screen or seeing it live. The balance of the way this book was written with these beautiful emotional scenes in the background and then coming back into the ring…every time we come back into the ring, it’s at a moment when it really counts. That dynamic really comes across in that and it was the idea. So, all the research and references are really pulled from those real-life ring fights and I tried to bring that across in the artwork.
Black Canary and Lady Shiva’s appearances are already established thanks to decades of comics, but did you find yourself looking at any real-life wrestlers or fighters when it came to designing them for this story? Even if it was just their ring gear.
Ryan: Visually, just speaking of fighters and stuff that I thought were great…I didn’t look at any of those things before when I designed the costumes. I was just thinking about what I knew of wrestling and fighting and, frankly, my history of wrestling goes back to my brother when I was young. He was a Hulkmania fan so that was back in the day. Macho Man Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan…we had the little action figures with the rubber arms. We did all that stuff but it was his thing, not my thing. That was my memory of it so my thought was to try and give them something they could actually fight in that still really represented the characters. That was the design, but once I did pages, I was looking at a lot of the different…mainly Ronda Rousey and a blonde professional boxer whose name I can’t recall. Also, Mandy Rose and different wrestlers who just have a presence and an image that’s so striking. They almost look like superheroes to me.
Tom, I’ve got to ask about commentators Mike Berg and Worthy Johnny Sunter - it’s great having that accompany the action, but who inspired the announcers and was it tough to figure out their back-and-forth?
Tom: I mean, they’re both based on friends of mine who are both super boxing fans. I took some inspiration from that. I took a lot of inspiration from over-the-top WWE announcers. There’s some Paul Heyman in there. There’s definitely Vince McMahon and Shane. Also, I took them from football announcers because I’m a big football guy. There’s some Joe Buck and Troy Aikman dynamic there. Mike is play-by-play, John is colour. John has a little Tony Romo in him probably, so I stole from a bunch of different places [Laughs]. John is really in Shiva’s corner. He’s constantly bad-mouthing Black Canary and making excuses. Mike is a little more neutral but kinda weary of the fight. They have their own personalities and both are trying to get out their catchphrases and get that over.
I got to channel my inner Stan Lee. Stan Lee never wrote a sentence that didn’t have an exclamation point at the end, so I got to be like that where every single sentence has an exclamation point, weird catchphrase, or alliteration foibles. There’s a certain poetry to the way commentators talk. They set up the drama and tell the story of what’s in the ring. It was a combination of all those factors. The hardest part was, I way overwrote it and just wrote these long silliquoes. You’re seeing it and thinking, ‘There’s so many words on these pages,’ but in original drafts, there were even more words! I’m constantly ripping out stuff so we can look more at Ryan’s art. I overwrote the crap out of it because I just fell in love with the weird phrases.
Black Canary can’t use her Canary Cry in this fight - did that make it harder to write these fight scenes compared to what we’d typically see when a superhero battles a supervillain?
Tom: When I was a kid, and this is my second Stan Lee reference, I had this book called ‘Marvel’s Greatest Battles.’ Stan Lee wrote the introduction for it and I still remember it because one of my first lessons in storytelling that blew my mind was when he was talking about the first time he wrote a Thing vs. Thor fight. He’s like, ‘The problem was, they had equal strength, so when I had them fight, I was writing two boxers fighting and that wasn’t interesting or bigger than life. It had to be somewhat character-based because they were on the same level.’ It became less of a superhero story because he had to tell a character story. That’s what it became here because I wanted them to be matched. I didn’t want this to be a tale of superheroes with one super having more powers. I wanted them to be evenly matched so it could be this character story about what’s going through Black Canary’s mind and her motivations. Each round is different and shifting about whether she wants to win this fight or how she can win. It’s about how someone who is obviously outmatched. John is right, she should lose this fight but takes it to the limit and pushes beyond.
Companies like WWE and AEW tell these epic stories in the confines of the ring; this year, for example, Cody Rhodes finished his story and fans turned on The Rock which no one saw coming. To take elements of that world and translate it into comics, what did you enjoy most about that?
Tom: This was written in the shadow of the Cody, Roman Reigns long story that took like four years to tell. Yeah, him finishing his story and the idea that he couldn’t rise, had to go and do his own company, and come back and be his own man before taking on Roman but losing…him ripping his chest open…all of that stuff was going on and I was watching with my kid and trying to capture that energy. There was something about those two guys. Roman’s story didn’t matter anymore. His catchphrase ‘Acknowledge Me’ and all that stuff mattered, but what you were focusing on was Cody having a story to tell and you had to get to the end of it. You’ll see that’s utterly an influence on this in the most nerdy way. Black Canary has a story she’s trying to tell about her and her mother, and getting to the end of this match is getting to the end of that story, for sure.
Ryan: I loved that part of it too. One of the things Tom does and I’m going to steal a phrase from him from something else we were talking about, but he’s focusing on legacy in this story. You see that play out when those tales are told in the ring. To bring it to life, we did something really cool which is to artistically, I think at least, is strip everything down just to these two fighters and get it into the ring. It echoes what’s going on in her real life so you get to come back to each issue, or really to each round, and get something unexpected every time. It’s something you’re hoping for, but something unexpected. That’s what made it fun to draw.
Something I think will really surprise people is the great story that plays out with Black Canary and her mother; what did you both enjoy most about exploring their dynamic, particularly with those training sequences? Those were so much fun.
Tom: This is a story about a huge match and who would win and who the best hand-to-hand fighter is in the DC Universe, but it’s also a story about how Black Canary got to this moment. That story revolves around her legacy and her relationship with her mother who was the Golden Age Black Canary. Her first appearance was literally 80-plus years ago in comics. That’s the heart of everything because, at some point, a match stops becoming about skills and becomes about soul. You watch 90% of the match to see the training they did to get there. What you’re seeing in a match are awesome movies, but as you watch it, what makes it awesome to you is that you know this guy worked five years to do it. It wasn’t an overnight thing. You’re watching sweat and tears. That last 10% is how they dig back. It’s not training because suddenly that’s gone in the match; it’s not about years of training, but a lifetime of learning. God, that sounds so corny, but that’s what you watch in a match! You love how hard these guys worked. When you get to the end of the match, you say, ‘I love who these guys are.’ It’s not about their work, it’s about who they are as people and what they represent and how that gets them over the edge and gets them to win that match. That’s what the flashbacks are. You see the training and that every move Canary performs is earned. The fact she doesn’t go down…it’s not just earned, it’s a culmination of everything she is.
Ryan: I’ve got nothing to add [Laughs]. I love that stuff. The training scenes between mother and daughter. I love that Tom really develops Black Canary in a way we haven’t seen in the comics before because it adds to her story. Like he said, it adds to the fight in the ring because it adds to her character. You get to see where she came from and what really built her up. It’s not just the physical training, though we get to see that, but also being raised by a woman who is trying to prepare her for fighting a battle that no one should be prepared to fight and what it instils in her. That’s fun to see because then those training moments actually become…all that comedic back and forth between mother and daughter is only accentuated by the strain and emotion of doing the physical, heavy lifting.
It must have been a blast illustrating the original Black Canary in that second issue flashback, Ryan? That page is gorgeous, particularly the way it’s presented and coloured.
Ryan: Absolutely and there are scenes in later issues where we get to revisit those times. Black Canary has been one of my favourite characters for a long time. To actually get the chance to draw her. And now to get to draw both of them together is really a joy, yeah. A lot of fun.
There’s a great scene with Black Canary’s fellow heroes watching the fight - having watched wrestling myself, I know what it’s like to get passionate and my wife constantly reminds me of hearing my anguished cries of ‘No, no!’ when Cody lost to Roman the first time -
Tom: [Laughs]
Ryan: [Laughs]
- but, how much could you both relate to the way those characters are reacting in that moment?
Tom: It’s wonderful because there are two levels to all of it. There’s the idea that superheroes can be normal people and can just enjoy the things that we enjoy. If I had to sum up my silly 10-year career in comics, it’s the idea that superheroes are human and are us too. That idea of seeing them in a normal environment…then there’s the other level because there’s something non-comic booky about this entire set-up that two people would fight for money in a ring to determine something. It’s very not superhero. This whole series calls back to one of the greatest comic books of all time which is Muhammed Ali versus Superman by Neal Adams. That was a case of, whoever wins saves the world. There was still a superhero element to it. That idea that two characters would be in the ring and subject themselves to this is a mystery. I have 1000 detectives in a room and they’re like, ‘I have to solve this.’ If you look, Batman isn’t there because he’s trying to solve the mystery. He can’t stand a question. Why is this happening? That’s in the backstory too of what got us to a place where Dinah was willing to get into the ring in the middle of Vegas and have every camera pointed at her. That’s at the heart of the whole thing.
Ryan: Absolutely, it was so much fun to see the other characters, like Tom said, be human and enter into this place where they’re not fighting as a team. They know and love each other and have a relationship with each other. In some instances, maybe they don’t like each other, and all of that comes out in one scene. That’s an incredible thing for someone to write, you know, and then a real fun thing to get to draw. To do it in such a way that you get to play up the humour and comedy of it, I had a lot of fun drawing that just to see everybody’s reaction to what’s going on there.
I feel like this story would be well-suited to getting the movie treatment. The concept is very cinematic and it harkens back to fans arguing over who should beat who and they’re going to want to see more characters step into the ring, right? Who else would you like to pit against each other?
Ryan: [Laughs] The next thing is Betty versus Veronica! No, no.
Tom: [Laughs]
Ryan: No, every day I’m drawing pages and I can’t help but in the back of my mind try and cast it. I just can’t help it. It’s part of being a movie fan and comic fan. You’re like, ‘Oh, in this scene, I know exactly who would play her.’ And then it changes from issue to issue. Obviously, all that stuff is a lot of fun to do but other characters, that has to go to Tom.
Tom: I mean, my mind immediately goes to, having written it a few times, I want to see Batman vs. Superman in the ring but stripped of powers. You think, ‘Stripped of powers? Batman would win in 20 seconds and it would just be over. There’s no way Clark could stand up against Batman who has trained his whole life.’ But that would be the challenge of the story. That makes me hungry for it. Can I make an argument that Clark could stay in that ring and fight and come up with a way? I’m off to the races. The fact it’s such an easy fight makes it cool to think how I could make it into a long one.
I can see you’re fans of both wrestling and comics, but what would you say to pro wrestling fans about this story and how it mirrors what they see in the ring each week on shows like RAW, SmackDown, and AEW Dynamite?
Tom: I think the overlap of comics and wrestling is the zen diagram of a circle. Our fans are your fans. We’re kind of like sisters…having spent time in Hollywood, we’re sister genres. We have a little disrespect in the rest of the world as they think we’re a little immature. They also have a vision of us that’s 50 years old. Everyone who thinks of comics is like, ‘Wham! Bam!’ and everyone who thinks of wrestling goes to Hulk Hogan. They don’t understand that there’s a maturity to this storytelling and there’s a release that comes from them, not to mention a connection to your children and parents that comes from going to these matches. The pleasures you get from stories in the ring, you can get from this book. That’s the easiest way to put it. If you’re looking for a comic top get into that’s about something you enjoy, this is it. I think most people who like wrestling like comics. We’ve just got to respect each other because we’re playing the same music in a hard world.
Ryan: I feel like about this story that it’s one of those things, even working on it, it’s exciting drawing it because I want to come back and find out what’s going to happen in the next round. It surprises me and surprised me when I first read the script. When it comes to people who are wrestling fans and comic fans alike, I remember being down in San Diego a year or two ago with Daniel Warren Johnson and he was drawing Do A Powerbomb and we were in the hotel room and he’s a major wrestling fan to a crazy degree. He’s literally walking to the Eisnars to get his award and is watching wrestling on his phone while he’s walking down the street. He couldn’t wait to get back to that story and I feel like anybody who likes wrestling that much and anybody who likes comics, this is a great place for those worlds to come together in a way they haven’t come together at other times. He did it, but we’re doing it with characters in a totally different way and a way that’s fun where you want to get back and see what happens and what develops, the same way you want to every week.
Black Canary: Best of the Best #1 arrives in comic book stores and digital platforms from DC Comics this Wednesday, November 27.