Why Professional Critics Are At Risk of Being A Detriment To Comic Book Movies

Why Professional Critics Are At Risk of Being A Detriment To Comic Book Movies

A Look into how Comic Book Movies are being reviewed by critics and the impact it is causing on how fans view them.

Editorial Opinion
By sweetre15 - Aug 08, 2016 08:08 PM EST
Filed Under: DC Comics
Source: Sweettre15
 
In the wake of negative reviews for films like Suicide Squad and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and the division between critics and fans even to the point of misdirected hatred causing fans to petition for Rotten Tomatoes to get shut down because of their negativity towards the DCEU(which is ridiculous), there has been an ongoing trend where fans are constantly arguing about what Superhero films should be in regards to the tone and general conventions the films should cater to.
 
  So, in light of this situation, I want to address these specific things today: 
 
 - The type of "reviewing" that professional film critics are using for comic book films.
 
-  The role it's playing in how people view comic book adaptations  
 
 - The hypocrisy of critics when it comes to non-Marvel comic book adaptations 
 
On to the issue regarding how these movies are being "reviewed" by the so called "Professional critics" in light of the situation surrounding the latest entries in the DCEU such as Man of Steel, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and the recently released Suicide Squad. It’s quite often that the negative "reviews" of these films often contain little or not actual reviewing. These films have either gotten broad criticisms like "It's too dark" or "Its not fun" while wrapped in a package of over-the-top hyperbole and snarky comments that references their competition (Marvel) as a means of belittling it. 
 
The reasons why this doesn't count as reviewing or legitimate criticism are:
 
  1. The term "fun" is extremely subjective due to people finding different things fun and a film being fun for the viewers isn't limited to a film with lots of humor and wit. People can arguably have just as much fun at the theater watching a thought provoking and/or grim nihilistic film as they can have watching a lighthearted action romp filled with moments of levity. Not to mention that what's fun for one person isn't always fun for another.  
 
2. The average "professional" critic review these days seem to consist of  

- 50% Over the top Hyperbole 
 
 - 40% Snarky remarks  
 
- 10% Broad generalizations 
 
  - 0% Actual reviewing  
 
For example, I've seen reviews for these films say things along the lines of "the story is a mess", "it's an abomination" or my favorite, "It's An all out attack on the idea of entertainment" but never go in-depth on why besides blanket statements.
 
However, the criticisms referenced above are mostly in the case of the reviews for Suicide Squad, which I admittedly have not seen yet but plan to in the future.  Nonetheless, The reason why this is a problem is because what use to separate professional critics from the average moviegoer saying how he/she feels about a movie is that they would actually analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the movie in a fairly in-depth fashion as well as give their opinions based on those things as opposed to just reacting.
 
Now it seems that the so-called "professional critics" are just as biased and reactionary as the average moviegoer, which is not the way it should be, because if they are are the same then what's the point of having professional critics anymore? 
 
The things I see said in these "reviews" are things that one could easily get from a comment section on Facebook, a tweet, or just be told by a friend of theirs in casual conversation.  Now some might say I'm "overgeneralizing" the way critics review these films but I've never said ALL critics, so keep that in mind.  
 
Now let's move on to the role these "professional critics" are playing in how people view comic book movies as a whole. Ever since the popularity and success of films like Iron Man, Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Antman and Deadpool, there seems to be a growing demand for more "fun" comic book movies. Nothing wrong with this in and of itself but it becomes a problem when critics or fans start saying that those movies are what all Comic Book movies are "supposed to be".
 
 I can understand wanting a movie that is funny and optimistic but in the midst of the growing demand for lightheartedness/optimism as well as complaining about superhero adaptations that "take themselves too seriously", something important is being lost in translation: 
 
 Comic Book Movies are NOT a genre, so the critics and fans that share those views should stop treating it like one by advocating that studios (WB or otherwise) conform to one convention when making these adaptations. Contrary to popular belief, comic book movies (much like comic books themselves) are diverse enough to have any tone or style and that has been the case since day one.
 
 Some are dark/nihilistic, lighthearted/optimistic as well as comedic/irreverent. There should be nothing that stops comic book movies from being just as diverse as their source material because hindering that would cause all comic book movies to end up being a repetitive experience and the notion that they should be done only one way is not only narrow-minded but creatively limiting as well. 
 
So, as far as I'm concerned, using "OMG GRIMDARK!!" or "Its NOT FUN!!" as criticism is weak, generic and shows a lack of objectivity because the film isn't being judged on its actual merits as much as it is being judged on what a viewer/critic felt it "should be".  
 
To put things in perspective, I like Marvel movies and characters just as much as the next guy but I don't think it's fair to pressure Warner Bros into making "Marvel style" movies with DC characters for the reasons stated above and once critics stop having this mentality, non-Marvel Comic Book Movies would be able to get more objective criticisms based on its actual merits.  
 
Speaking of judging things objectively, let’s speak on the hypocrisy that critics have shown towards non-Marvel/DC comic book adaptations. Some of the common criticisms that have been rearing their heads when it comes to these films are: 
  
- It's not fun
 
- It's too dark
 
- Too many plot holes    
 
- It's too generic and/or more of the same
 
  The funny thing about the first 3 points is that Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight was not only praised for being gritty and realistic but it was also rather incoherent and had plot holes such as how Joker was able to set in motion everything he did without flaw despite claiming that he "doesn't plan" or how Harvey Dent was able to survive the explosion with just his face burned and still be able to talk perfectly as a couple examples. 
 
However, those criticisms about plot holes, bad editing, and being too dark were frequently used to attack Batman vs Superman:Dawn of Justice yet The Dark Knight is given a pass for those things and still lauded as a masterpiece. Now there are criticisms of Suicide Squad being "more of the same" or "another generic Comic Book movie",which is rather humorous when you consider that the Marvel movies (for better or worse) have the same tone and presentation style in arguably all of their movies in the sense that they are presented as safe crowd-pleasers that somewhat address serious issues.
 
Never mind that critics and a contingency of fans feel that this is what Comic Book movies are "supposed to be" as stated in this article before.  
 
So, just in case, you guys are wondering where I'm going with this, I'll sum it up with one simple question: How can one criticize something for being "more of the same" yet at the same time advocate that a company should conform to the same style of movies presented by their competition?  
 
It's either one of the other, we cant have both...especially when Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice were criticized for being too different from those conventions that made Suicide Squad supposedly come off as "more of the same".
 
Now as a bonus, I want to touch on the unfair standard that the DCEU is being held to. Marvel's comic book films seem to be able to get away with being "flawed but entertaining" but when a DCEU comic book film comes out, it has to be Godfather or it gets crucified with lots of over the top hyperbole laced with snarky comments. For instance, look at Iron Man 2, A film that's perceived flaw was it being bogged down in too much world building to set up The Avengers at the expense of strong storytelling and character development yet critic reviews were mostly forgiving of these flaws. Even if one takes anticipation level into consideration, it is still representative of the fact that DC gets held to a higher than Marvel or any other studios that make Comic Book movies in a similar fashion.
  
Allow me to conclude by saying that there is nothing wrong with liking or disliking the films mentioned in this article for your own reasons or for things you felt were good/bad but I recommend deciding that based on the film's merits overall for the reasons stated above.
 
I also want to reiterate that if critics/fans continue to demand these comic book movies to conform to the "Marvel way" then there's a huge chance that these films will become stale and slowly lose its relevance. Which is actually very reminiscent to the fate that Western films suffered during its dying days. Which is something I'm sure Comic Book Movie fans would hate to see happen due to the fact that adaptations of these comic books that were once a pipe dream are now possible since the brands are now proven viable as big budget blockbusters. 
 
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kong
kong - 8/8/2016, 9:14 PM
"Marvel movies (for better or worse) have the same tone and presentation style in arguably all of their movies in the sense that they are presented as safe crowd-pleasers that somewhat address serious issues."

kong
kong - 8/8/2016, 9:16 PM
P.S. Get ready for bashing from trolls that didn't read your objective and well-written article.
Utopian8418
Utopian8418 - 8/8/2016, 9:54 PM
Age of Ultron, Dawn of Justice and Suicide Squad are awesome movies ridiculously underrated.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/9/2016, 3:38 AM
Honestly critics are getting away with murder and fans are letting them with their BS opinions> honestly I think MOS was a terrible movie, it really was and I even enjoyed the infamous Iron man 3 more than it.

However Marvel movies since have been so by the numbers boring IMO that I am shocked at how kind the treatment has been to them. BvS and Suicide Squad for all their flaws are really very artist driven movies with vision, great cinematography and both have far superior and far more intelligent scripts than anything I've seen from Marvel recently.

the villains are far more memorable in both movies, the tone and story far more visually and intellectually interesting than the Marvel movies. They just all in all did more things that true film making is about. Are they flawed? sure. But are they lifeless corporate pieces of bubblegum for the brain that critics use to so brazenly bash, absolutely not. These movies took chances. Chances historically critics would praise, even if they weren't big fans of the actual end product.

Anyway, great article and it is completely true. Comic fans should be very reluctant to support this incoherent bashing of movies half these critics haven't even quarter of the brain cells necessary for to have created themselves. Their contradictions in their critiques and their obvious double standards.

How dare anyone whose been giving marvel movies so much accolades ever say a movie is bad because the villain is forgettable. Just how dare they. un [frick]ING BELIEVABLE. I'm seeing critics who gave Cap America Civil Disobedience a million thumbs up talking about SS villain being forgettable. Just wow. Just idiots. Plain and simple.
LEOSTRATOR
LEOSTRATOR - 8/9/2016, 5:14 AM
@aresww3 - I don't agree.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/9/2016, 6:51 AM
@LEOSTRATOR - Well great. Care to may say why or what is the point of the comment?
blacksoufoda
blacksoufoda - 8/9/2016, 10:19 AM
@aresww3 - my god dude, are you 100% sure that you're not a cartoon? its amazing how butthurt DC fanboys get over other people's oppinion, to say that suicide squad, one of the worst superhero movie ever made is more "intelligent" than marvel is like saying that eating shit is better than pizza, its really frightening how delusional and arrogant you guys are.

HisVirusness
HisVirusness - 8/9/2016, 10:45 AM
@blacksoufoda - It's amazing to see how butthurt people get over other people's opinions. I mean, my God; are you sure you're not a hypocrite?
monsterswin
monsterswin - 8/9/2016, 11:06 AM
@aresww3 - "Well great. Care to may say why or what is the point of the comment?"

I think he did
LEOSTRATOR
LEOSTRATOR - 8/9/2016, 12:24 PM
@aresww3 - Well I don't agree that the Marvel movies are by the numbers. They are simple safe movies as in plot and twists, but not the same old cliche as in the XMen movies. I find Marvel movies different from themselves, but not very different from the movies they are imitating.

As in Cap CW & WS, which is a spy/political thriller, could easily been a Bourne or Mission Impossible movie. Or Ant-Man which reminds me of Eddie Murphy's Tower Heist. Marvel infuses their CBMs with other proven genres. Marvel's formula is flawless when you think about. I wouldn't be surprise if they do an Avengers Academy or Runaways in the form of Twilight or Hunger Games.
I have nothing against DC pushing the envelope at all. They tried being provocative by exploring how the real world would react to metahumans and Aliens. I think they should have established themselves before doing so, but there is no turning back now. The problem is WBs interference, the movies are choppy and take more than one viewing for some of their lore to sink in. Which is bad for the casual fan, we comic fans get it but we're not the majority.

As for villains, DC villains have been horrible. Zod, a genetic grown solider gets his azz handed to him by Jor El a scientist. Incabus was blah, Enchantress's motives were nonexistent and Lex was...just...man was he bad.

I liked SS, but I can understand why people could not. The beginning of the movie gave me a Guy Ritchie Snatch vibe, which I like. Than it went to some generic like zombie movie (I love horror zombie movies), than the third act was reminiscences of the Wolverine's third act, I liked the Wolverine. As you can see this movie was all over the place as in tone. This movie and the DCEU is understandably flawed and is in noway can compare to Marvel when it comes to quality.

I like DC and Marvel and will watch any CBM due to my love for the genre, but I disagree. :)
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/9/2016, 10:22 PM
@LEOSTRATOR - I use to like Marvel or at least tolerate it bc I liked the fact kids had some good CBM movies that adults could also kinda enjoy. To me they were like bad versions of Disney Cartoons or the newer Pixar movies. You know things adults and kids can delight in alike.

However once Marvel fans started demanding that all comic book movies be "fun" and complaining about dc movies being "too dark" etc etc etc. I just started getting pissed. Its like they want all comic movies to be the same.

Listen a movie is either good or bad. You can´t complain it is too dark or too light. If it was going for being dark that should not be the problem, it should be was the film entertaining or thought provoking or not. It´s like me saying Schindler´s List is too dark or not fun. What kind of critique is that. The movie wasn´t trying to be that. If I don´t like Schindler´s List bc it´s too dark, then I´d suggest that I just don´t like dark movies period, and perhaps should not be writing my opinions on whether it is a good or bad movie.

As for the villains of DC so far, I agree on Zod, even though his second in command Faora is broadly speaking considered a great villain. (I don´t even like her but many do) BvS Lex luthor for all his flaws if far more memorable than pretty much all marvel villains combined to date outside Loki, and Enchantress had some spectacular visual moments at times and a good story arch with the duality between her and June Moon. Again IMO better and more memorable than every marvel villain I´ve seen to date.

I think the whole Zombie thing in the movie was supposed to be a homage to the B-movies of the 60s and was actually an interesting choice.
LEOSTRATOR
LEOSTRATOR - 8/10/2016, 4:29 AM
@aresww3 - I disagree with your thought of Marvel being kiddie. They deal with adult themes and and use humor to break the movie up. I'm no expert in movies but I can understand that Marvel wants to take their audience on a emotional roller coaster. You can't tell me you didn't feel anything for Stark at the end of CW. You didn't feel for Cap, seeing his best friend, brother in arms being used against his will and everyone else writing him off?

I don't have anything against movies being dark and I don't think most of the members on this site do also. Remember Dredd was well received by members of this site and it was pretty dark. DC just have to make good movies and being dark and gritty does not equate to quality.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 9:24 AM
@LEOSTRATOR - I would if the character of Bucky was in anyway interesting and honestly I really lost any interest in Tony Stark as a character after I realized he was just a series of ever more tiresome one liners.

Plus him getting up in arms and wanting to suddenly police the Avengers after him causing such chaos in Avengers 2 by creating Ultron was so bizarre to me. What, just cos some woman came up to him and said you killed my son? what about all the destruction they caused that was pretty much all his fault.

I don´t know the only characters I like from marvel are in the TV shows, Hulk, Guardians and the X-Men if they count. (Cap America is okay as well, I loved Winter Soldier) Everything else surrounding characters from the Avengers bores me. Hawkeye overrated, black widow overrated, Iron Man overrated and boring with no compelling antagonists, Nick Fury Overrated garbage. I Captain Boomerang made more of an impression on me in 10 lines in Suicide Squad than Hawkeye or Black Widow combined in 3 movies. Wonder Woman more compelling than Cap, Black Widow and Black Panther in 3 scenes than anything I´ve seen all these guys in combined.

Dr. Strange looks great though. That actually looks like a badass movie I might finally get into. The rest of Marvel is entertaining, sure I like to see the kids faces light up watching them, but they are just not as good as people make them out to be.
LEOSTRATOR
LEOSTRATOR - 8/10/2016, 9:54 AM
@aresww3 - I take it that you're not a Marvel fan at all,That's okay by me. I'm not a Wonder Woman fan and Gadot acting is flat, but WW looks amazing and could be if they don't chop it up.

I just don't think brooding makes anyone interesting, in the real world it makes you a dick. I don't think Marvel movies would be better if everyone was angry and dark. It wouldn't make any sense for a character like Iron Man and Cap.

Also Iron Man siding with the Government make sense. We seen all the mistakes he made starting back in Iron Man 1 with his weapons being used for terrorist attacks to him creating a genocidal AI. All this weighing on his shoulders and than the mother whom lost her son because of his actions was the straw that broke his back. Cap never waver, he's old school conservative. How many conservative heroes are represented in film. I find that very interesting.

Hey I understand, you're not a fan. You like what you like and that's all good.
monsterswin
monsterswin - 8/10/2016, 2:50 PM
@LEOSTRATOR - I agree. It seems people equate brooding and hamfisted themes with being "dark." DC films aren't really dark just poorly conceived adaptations that for some reason are stripped of most of any heart with some strange idea that it equals being grounded. The result is a pretty joyless affair.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/12/2016, 4:00 AM
@LEOSTRATOR - Brooding is good when appropriate to the characters. I have been a huge critic of DC´s handling of superman from Man Of Steel all the way to BvS. Zack Snyder clearly does not know how to handle the character and he is my favorite superhero. Lex Luthor one of my favoroite villains. However I was able to seperate my feelings of Superman and look at both movies objectively and say Man Of Steel was awful, a terrible movie. However BvS had just enough in it to make it entertaining outside the poor portrayal of superman. I thought it was an above average movie with some interesting ideas.

My hope was that someone would take over from Zack and have the same tone as BvS but be able to handle things better.

Zack´s major issue is he does not see the small details and they open his movies up to unnecessary criticism.

Like why is Aquaman feeding pèople fish lol. Or why does Pa Kent think it´s maybe okay to let a bus full of children die when one has the power to save them. Zack just can´t deal with the subtlety of the weight of his philosophical or emotional beats in his film.

The Martha thing for instance is so easily understandable given Batman´s psychology. The problem with the scene is how it was handled. Batman instantly becoming super friends with Superman, instead of processing it. Why did superman call his mother Martha instead of Mum? All that time Clark spends investigating the Bat to make Batman look "extra cool" in the extended cut could have been spent with Clark discovering how Bruce´s parents died. That way Supes could have actually said Martha on purpose knowing it would trigger something in Bruce. It´s just clumsy writing. However the overall movie itself was just not as bad as people were making out and much worse films have been allowed to slide by critics. Why?

I think the answer is the anticipation fueled by the subject matter of SS and BvS is just much greater. People know Superman, they know Batman, they know Joker. These 3 are arguably the most iconic characters in comics period. When anticipation is so high disappointment is going to be high as well.

Some fans were like if this isn´t the greatest movie ever then it is absolute trash. All I´m arguing is that it isn´t a masterpiece but it certainly isn´t trash either. It´s roughly speaking an average to above average enjoyable movie.
LEOSTRATOR
LEOSTRATOR - 8/12/2016, 5:28 AM
@aresww3 - Now I agree. :)
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/15/2016, 3:20 AM
@LEOSTRATOR - Thanks. I think my disagreement isn't whether BvS and SS are bad movies, it's just how bad people are making them out to be. That's really it.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/9/2016, 3:42 AM
X-Men Age Of Apocalypse got the same treatment as well. Even though IMO it was a perfectly entertaining movie.
HisVirusness
HisVirusness - 8/9/2016, 10:45 AM
@aresww3 -That was Fox, though.
sikwon
sikwon - 8/9/2016, 8:00 AM
I think Batman and Spiderman are the 2 greatest comic book characters ever written. I think they have the best stories, the best mythology and the best rogues gallery. they are capable of standalone franchises that feature multiple villains and the stories are absolutely rich in history and character development. Studios still struggle to translate all of that to screen. The movies have never gotten Parkers humor, hence his personality, correct on film. We've yet to actually SEE the Dark Knight Detective in his full detective glory. and these are core elements of these characters, but studios can't seem to get it correct. My point is these are 2 of the easiest characters in comics to translate based on materiel, visuals, character development,mythology development, and longevity. If they miss this, how are they going to translate something as complicated as Superman feeling the literal weight of saving the world and the struggle with the realization that he can't save everyone? MoS and BvS tried to address some of these character elements but they failed, miserably. There's no way that Clark watching PA Kent die in order to save a dog, in front of Ma Kent mind you, is defensible story telling or character development. we were supposed to feel Superman's struggle with revealing himself to the world, the implications of who He is and what that means for the future of humanity and more. it was supposed to define him as a character so that later on in the franchise when he stands in front of a Senate committee we are supposed to understand and empathize with the inner struggle that Clark/Superman, goes through on a daily basis. we didn't feel that. the movie, the story, did a terrible job connecting the essential character elements, and that showed at the box office. we're WB misses the point is in its characters. relying on visuals and CGI will only take a movie so far. The audience must care about the characters, they must have some understanding of the characters. that's why Bats and Spidey are so easy to understand... a traumatic experience that drives a man to seek justice using violent means is easy to translate and allows for fairly easy character exploration. Parker deals with guilt and "with great power comes great responsibility", again fairly easy to transfer and connect with for audiences. Where Marvel really out distances WB/DC is in this area. getting fans to connect with the character, of understanding the character. Take Captain America as an example. the First Avenger wasn't great, it was good but not great. the action was subpar, Red Skull was criminally under used and the special effects weren't great. BUT it had a decent story and did a fantastic job of explaining who Steve was and what his motivations are. Subsequent movies developed Steve in a consistent manner with what was established before and thenot expanded his character, he's grown in his world view from First Avemgers to Civil War. Audiences understand and connect with Steve. Marvel does a great job with that. Guardians was a success because fans connected with the characters. as a fan of the comics I was NOT happy, at all, with much of the character choices in Guardians... Gamorah was nothing like her comic counterpart and Ronin was a shadow of what he should be (and wasted). but what the got correct was the essential elements that drive Guardians in the comics. it would be one thing if DC/WB simply struggled to understand the characters, they could simply do what Singer and Fox does with Xmen.. use the names and basic mythology of the characters and then just do whatever the he'll they want. They don't do that either. what we end up with are choppy movies, undeveloped stories and terrible, just terrible, character development. I LIKED Suicide Square, way more than I thought I would. I didn't like the Joker at all, and he's far and away my favorite villain in comics or in movies, amd he just didn't hit home for me. I still enjoyed the movie. but you can see why critics bashed it. there are plot holes all over the place, under developed characters, character actions that seem completely out of place... I get why Diablo considered the SS family but the movie did a really bad job of showing that feeling develop. the Bar scene just wasn't enough to develop that kind of emotional shift/connection. the villain was terrible and yes Waller was supposed to be the main villain in a subtle way, but the story developed that poorly as well. the editing was a mess, story, all of the essential elements of good storytelling. so yes, the critics are justified in bashing the movie. aND seriously, to this point DC/WB movies have been extremely dark and depressing. I mean at the end of the day, weather it's cheesy or not, a super hero movie should leave you with a sense of triumph. There's nothing even close to that in the DCEU. that they are trying to be dark and realistic, this only works in the super hero genre if the story is strong enough to support it.
sikwon
sikwon - 8/9/2016, 8:09 AM
@aresww3... WB thinks they are telling some grand mythology, but they arent. in attempting all of these risks you talk about one of the things they are showing is that they do not understand the driving elements of these characters. they haven't approached a decent story. they've yet to actually develop anything. the short cuts they've taken in introducing the DCEU are the same short cuts they've taken in developing the characters. story matters, character matters.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 1:33 AM
@sikwon - I get what you're saying, but are you truly telling me you think Thor was that strong a movie? Incredible Hulk which got 66% was that good a movie? How about Cap America First Avenger or Iron Man 2 and 3? Or Thor 2?
All of these are bad movies with far less artistic merit than BvS? yes I have some major problems with BvS? I see what everyone else sees. Same with SS. But it get to a point when a critique is not constructive criticisms, they are just bandwagon, blatant gleeful annihilation of a movie which clearly isn't that bad.

Maybe it's bc the DC characters are so much more beloved outside Spiderman, Hulk and the X-men (Maybe Iron Man) so people hold DC heroes to a higher standard.

My problems with BvS theatrical cut

1. Toooo F-ing long
2. Fight could have been more epic and the resolution (although I understand the infamous Martha scene) could have been handled a lot better.
3. Superman (My favourite superhero) in the theatrical cut is not heroic and seems more like a villain. It is a terrible representation of Clark and Superman and personally even the extended cut didn't do much better. Superman needed to be equal to Batman in this movie. HE WAS NOT. Snyder should not be allowed within 50 miles of superman from now on.

4. Batman killing was jarring, unheroic and made him going after superman look extremely hypocritical. If he did kill, it should have been explained and Superman should have been his redemption.

5. Lex was miscast. The Lex character was very very well written, but terribly miscast. Someone should have stopped Snyder here. (however having said that Eisenberg was nowhere as bad as they say he was)

These are the main problems and they are BIG problems I admit.
However, the movie was far more coherent than people make out. It was very easy to follow, even in the theatrical cut. The James Bond style Batman was excellent, WW was very tastefully done, the visuals were extremely engaging as was the action, the villain was memorable and very well written, the movie was very original in it's takes on established characters and took a lot of chances with them and established a mythos which could have been majorly improved upon in Justice League.

The tone, the score, the dialogue, all was fine. It had some major slip ups, but they could have easily been corrected while remaining in a tone that distinguished it from Marvel movies. Having seen the JL trailer it made me want to puke. It was GARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Batman making jokes. Great.

Also why is Aquaman giving fish to people to eat? :) Lol DC are gonna be ripped apart for that if they don't change it.

Really sometimes Snyder can be such an idiot.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 1:41 AM
@sikwon - Also, how is BvS story even that bad? I forgot to say BvS actually does have some deep philosophical questions thrown up as well and is aesthetically beautiful. So all in all added to that some superb acting, the film is very underrated.
I'd give it a total score of 68%. I'd give Cap Civil War about the same. Both had moments I really enjoyed but generally I thought they were mediocre to above average movies that haven't quite nailed the source material they are adapting.
kong
kong - 8/10/2016, 3:07 AM
@aresww3 - Batman wasn't making jokes in the comic-con trailer. There's two types of comedy in films. 1) Where the character is actively trying to be comedic, and 2) when the character is comedic to the audience. Within the world of Justice League what Batman says isn't funny. It is only funny in the context of the real world while we sit down and watch the film. That's the difference between Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne saying "I thought she was with you" wasn't delivered or received as funny by Batman or to Superman. In Marvel movies you'll see characters like Iron Man, Falcon, Spider-Man, Ant-Man, Star Lord, Rocket Racoon, (I can't list any more or it won't stop) actively try to say funny things within the context of the story. There actually wasn't one line of comedic dialogue in that trailer that was intended to be funny within the universe. I'd like for you to point me in the direction of one. Besides, that trailer was course-correction. I bet the next one will dial down on comedy and rev up the action, drama, story, etc.

Also, why wouldn't Aquaman feed the people of that town (possibly the one he grew up in) during a time of year where it's harder to fish? It's not like fish are his friends, and if you think they are you don't understand the character.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 4:11 AM
@kong - Very good point about the humour. Either way I don't think Bruce or Bats should be accidentally or purposely being funny. He seemed like how Clark Kent should have been. Some kind of affable nice guy. Flash and Supes should provide comedy, Supes being far more mild and subtle and more good humoured.

Batman's character just plain and simply did not fit the character. Maybe WW can crack a joke every once in a while, but really both Bats and Wondy are far more serious.

Also I think the dynamic would have been so much nicer if Wondy and Bats went around recruiting, instead WW looks like she's been reduced to her original role in the 50s BvS, goodhearted snarky secretary lol

As for Aquaman and the fish, classically Aquaman can telepathically communicate with all aquatic life and is the ruler and protector of all life in the 7 seas (lol)
I mean he just goes and slaughters his own peeps and feeds them to people. That some Hannibal Lector shit right there. I know they wanted to make him more badass, but a cannibal. Well its kinda cool. Maybe he eats humans as well? lol
monsterswin
monsterswin - 8/10/2016, 7:50 AM
@aresww3 - "All of these are bad movies with far less artistic merit than BvS?" Thor 1 is a fine comic book movie. Its got plenty of heart and was fairly faithful to the source. Artistic merit? Well that's the problem isn't it? Some of us want great ASAPTATIONS of characters that have endured for a long time. Story and characters are first an foremost. What "artistic merit" (whatever the hell that means for BvS) are you going on about here? Bad editing? Poor characterization? Dumb story (starting this off by having Batman and Superman fight each other...really? There was no gracotas at all to that), Superman's hollow death? The forced dull "themes" of MOS? These are comic book movies and in their zeal to make them "different: WB's lost their way by also removing the comic from the book.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 9:38 AM
@monsterswin - Um, sorry, comics have been very mature (I hate this term dark) in tone for a long time. One can do comic movies without having to insert lame jokes, explore philosophical issues and the implications of existing a world with superbeings and have themes that reflect a more realistic world.

It´s done in comics all the time and specifically in DC comics. Its done very well. I hear no one complaining about Batman Begins and Dark Knight. One can make a Superman film with mature themes and still have it be an emotional ride, I hope they´ve managed to do that with WW. And that isn´t to say a joke or something funny can´t be splashed in here and there, but adding some psychological realism to the characters makes it feel more visceral and real.

I don´t like dark or serious for the sake of dark and serious, I like it when it serves the story. BvS is not perfect, it is not as good as Batman Begins and does not have the fantastic performances of Dark Knight, but it was a good start.

As for asking me about the artistic merit, it had the balls to literally take a modern day feeling else world graphic novel style story and put it on screen. It failed in places but in other areas it pulled it off spectacularly. This is I hope what TRUE comic book fans should want from comic book movies. To see the panels from the graphic novels come alive on the page. I liked it-
kong
kong - 8/10/2016, 10:58 AM
@aresww3 - That's the thing, Batman isn't accidentally being funny either. Nothing he says in their universe is funny. It's only funny to us. Saying "Arthur Curry, I heard you talked to fish" is probably taken as an insult to Aquaman. It's only funny to us because it references the many jokes that have been made across pop culture about Aquaman's power set.

Wonder Woman presumably recruits Cyborg in this version, based on the set visit reports. And who knows, Aquaman said no initially. Maybe WW has to go and get him back herself, which would mean that in the end she recruited more people than Batman did.

And calling Aquaman a cannibal because he eats fish are like calling humans cannibals because we eat chicken, pork, beef, etc. What do Atlanteans eat if they don't eat fish? They can't all just be on a kelp based diet. He doesn't telepathically "speak" to fish, as they have no language or anything like that to speak. He can will them to do what he wants them to do. He's not a fish, so why can't he eat them? That'd be his only source of meat down in the sea. Before Atlantis sank it was an island surrounded by water, which means that they were most definitely a society that relied on fishing for food since their inception.
monsterswin
monsterswin - 8/10/2016, 2:58 PM
@aresww3 - " Um, sorry, comics have been very mature (I hate this term dark) in tone for a long time. One can do comic movies without having to insert lame jokes, explore philosophical issues and the implications of existing a world with superbeings and have themes that reflect a more realistic world. "

And if you are using the actual comics as an example they are part of the problem. They have been stripped of "wonder" for quite a number of years now. As far as the name Comic book goes you might have misunderstood. They aren't called comic book because they are humorous they are are called comic books because they don't HAVE TO be grounded all the time. They can contain wonder and enjoyment and don't need to have an axe to grind, or hamfisted metaphors to constantly fly in our faces.
HisVirusness
HisVirusness - 8/10/2016, 11:09 PM
@monsterswin - The qualities involved in "wonder and enjoyment" are entirely subjective. You might have not have fun watching BvS, but that doesn't mean no one has had fun watching BvS.
aresww3
aresww3 - 8/10/2016, 11:18 PM
@monsterswin - when did I say "comic" in comic book equates to being humorous? Please try and understand me, I am a long time comic book reader. I have read comics since the early 90s and I have seen the trash they´ve `produced nowadays in the name of being grim and dark and I very much agree with you.

However the answer isn´t to stop reflecting real world issues and go back to some candy coated wonder land in comics either.

All I want in comic book movies is for the creators to have the freedom to make the kind of comic book movies they like. Whether it´s marvel like humorous in tone, or mystical like Dr. Strange or darker like Daredevil or BvS. The more range movies have the longer they will stay alive. If they are limited by an audience who demands they be "funny" and full of "wonder" whatever the hell that means, they will eventually die, because all of them will be the same. People will get bored and that will be that.

The comics I love like Superman Birthright, Thy Kingdom Come, early 90s DC comics are all full of wonder and true to the characters, but they are still mature in tone and take the mythos of these superheroes seriously. That is what I´d like to see DC doing and it seemed like they were getting there with SS and BvS. They made a few missteps and I think Snyder has a lot to say for that, but they still were getting there.

I just hope they can reshuffle things and Snyder can take a back seat bc I think audiences are never going to give a fair shake to anything he´s involved in, Its clear now.
monsterswin
monsterswin - 8/9/2016, 11:02 AM
Critics have nothing to do with me. I didn't like the pre production stuff I saw coming out from MOS and DC making THAT movie their "foundation" on which the rest of the universe has been built on (so far) was a big miscalculation. The movies have brought very little of the greatness of DC to the screen. Bland, over wrought, half miserable portrayals of the best heroes in comics. Add to that the dark monotone colors (and god forbid we ever see sunlight) and crappy so called "makes you think" (that some people misinterpret as being deep for some reason) is NOT entertaining and yes fun. The Marx brothers are fun. Maybe some people could find these 50% weak adaptations "interesting" but fun? Doubtful. The critics haven't influenced how I view these at all. They just have been sub par to just bad.
WW at least appears to have gotten some of it right. We will see. Dumping Snyder was the first and best step they could have taken.
HisVirusness
HisVirusness - 8/9/2016, 11:15 AM
@monsterswin - "The movies have brought very little of the greatness of DC to the screen. Bland, over wrought, half miserable portrayals of the best heroes in comics. Add to that the dark monotone colors (and god forbid we ever see sunlight) and crappy so called "makes you think" (that some people misinterpret as being deep for some reason) is NOT entertaining and yes fun."

Were you saying this after The Dark Knight came out?
blacksoufoda
blacksoufoda - 8/9/2016, 12:00 PM
@HisVirusness - but The Dark Knight was an actual good film, actually about something, and not simply pretentious bullshit coming out of characters mouth the whole goddamn movie, and even The Dark Knight had more scenes shot in daylight than the three DCEU films together.
HisVirusness
HisVirusness - 8/9/2016, 1:54 PM
@blacksoufoda - It's funny that you say that, since the majority of TDK was hollow heavy-handed exposition spoon-fed to the audience and masquerading as deep conversations about human behavior (while not at all being an accurate representation of human behavior). 80% of the movie was pretentious bullshit without subtlety.

Also, is "daylight scenery" really a criteria for what makes a movie good or not, especially for a Batman movie? Don't get me wrong, they got some sweet establishing shots of Canal Street (which now sadly looks completely different), but I wouldn't exactly call that a game changer, let alone applicable to quality, when it comes to judging a film as a whole.
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