The Ultimates, What Do They Mean For Our Movies?

The Ultimates, What Do They Mean For Our Movies?

After quite a bit of thought, I've finally nailed down my feelings about Marvel's "Ultimate" imprint.

Editorial Opinion
By contrast - Dec 18, 2009 02:12 AM EST
Filed Under: Marvel Comics

For as long as I care to remember, I have been fervently against Marvel Comics' “Ultimate” imprint, and not as someone who had never read them. My first run-in with The Ultimates, was way back in whatever year they were birthed; I was hanging around my local comic shop (oh, how plentiful those used to be) and was given the first issue of Ultimate Spider-Man as what I assume was some sort of a promotional offer. I gave it a quick read-through, and was rather underwhelmed. It was a tiresome story hidden behind flashy, new artwork, and a “hip” style presumably designed to attract readers in what was at the time my age-range. By the end of the issue, I was also given the impression that Peter Parker's powers (try saying that five times fast) were toxic to him, and he would eventually die from his spider bite. Wow. That's amazing writing. I'm simply blown away. (hopefully, you're catching my sarcasm.)

After that initial brush with Marvel's shiny, new Ultimate imprint, I decided that it wasn't for me, and I'd stick with the good ole' regular, 616 Marvel continuity. My desire to avoid the Ultimate Universe was turned up to eleven, so to speak, when I saw Wolverine (one of my top five favorite Marvel characters, and the guy I was named after) on the cover of an issue of Ultimate Somethingorother (I'd always assumed it was X-Men, but I could be wrong.) and he looked like what could only be described as the world's biggest douchebag. That was all she wrote, I was not, and never would be okay with the Ultimate Universe, or would I?

Several years had passed since my last attempt at reading an Ultimate story, and I had all but wiped them from my memory, and just by happenstance, we met again. I was working on some preliminary notes for a Deadpool script when I began to think about how Cable could fit into the whole thing without being too far-fetched (with regards to the story's internal logic) and I began to research him. My first step was to go through any comic I thought might have even a glimpse of Cable; my second step was to hit up the Marvel Wiki, which is where I learned some shocking news--Ultimate Cable was Wolverine (and best of all, he no longer looked like a douchebag.) I then decided that I would give the Ultimate Universe one more chance, because although I still don't entirely know how I feel about this major character change, I think it was a pretty ballsy move, and a well-written move, nonetheless. I respected their guts.

Of course, I'm not one to spend a lot of money, so my “second chance” consisted of me looking up nearly every character in the Ultimate Universe and reading about them. Some things I hated, some things I loved, but most of all, I found that I was indifferent, which is actually, all that could be asked of me as such a diehard fan of the normal universe, because it meant that though I didn't think their writing was brilliant, I also didn't think their stories were terrible enough to actually gather an opinion on. As far as the thinks I DID have “extreme” reactions to, I was not a fan of the fact that (aside from the oddball random origin every now-and-again,) everybody was either a mutant or a super-soldier, or sometimes both. That just seemed a little lazy to me, but not that big a deal. I also disliked how it seemed that they tried to make everyone so “realistic” (or maybe “plausible” is a better word) but then they just threw something in from left-field, like Doctor Doom, complete with more realistic name (Van Damme) gets turned into a metallic satyr. Woo Hoo. I also didn't understand the writers' fixation with cannibalism. You have no idea how many times I came across an entry that ended with “[s]he was found half-eaten by [insert character name].”

But on the flip-side, as I mentioned briefly, there were several things I liked, and wouldn't mind seeing in a film based mostly on the 616 universe; things like Thor's godhood being in doubt and people believing him to be some sort of insane mutant, Captain America hanging out with eighty-year-olds, and his knack for either speaking like he is from the Forties (which he is), or copying phrases from bad daytime television (which I learned from the first Ultimate comic I picked up in ages just the other day)

Over all, I feel that though they aren't the characters I grew up with, and I am most definitely still a Normal Continuity guy, the Ultimate Universe does deserve far more merit than I was originally willing to give. Now, however, I present you all with a rather unfortunate realization I came to during my “study” of these characters--They are interpretations of the 616 Marvel characters, and they are (in some cases) very different from their 616 counterparts; and what does Hollywood like to do best? Re-imagine a tried-and-true idea, so what we are left with is that instead of “interpreting” the normal Marvel characters, they will now interpret interpretations of these characters, making the end result even more disjointed from their original counterparts. It's like translating Spanish into English by way of Japanese, there will most definitely be something lost in translation between Spanish and English, but if you add in another step, there is no telling how wrong the end result will be.

As a final statement, my problem is not with the Ultimates, my problem is with Hollywood, and with the fact that they, for the most part, have never given us what we want, and the Ultimates are just another excuse for them not to.

Let the chaos begin. Excelsior!

-Contrast.

Marvel Comics Reveals The Impact ONE WORLD UNDER DOOM Will Have On The FANTASTIC FOUR In New Tie-In Issues
Related:

Marvel Comics Reveals The Impact ONE WORLD UNDER DOOM Will Have On The FANTASTIC FOUR In New Tie-In Issues

Marvel Comics' FREE COMIC BOOK DAY 2025 Offerings Include SPIDER-MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR, STAR WARS, And More
Recommended For You:

Marvel Comics' FREE COMIC BOOK DAY 2025 Offerings Include SPIDER-MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR, STAR WARS, And More

DISCLAIMER: As a user generated site and platform, ComicBookMovie.com is protected under the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and "Safe Harbor" provisions.

This post was submitted by a user who has agreed to our Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. ComicBookMovie.com will disable users who knowingly commit plagiarism, piracy, trademark or copyright infringement. Please CONTACT US for expeditious removal of copyrighted/trademarked content. CLICK HERE to learn more about our copyright and trademark policies.

Note that ComicBookMovie.com, and/or the user who contributed this post, may earn commissions or revenue through clicks or purchases made through any third-party links contained within the content above.

CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 12/18/2009, 5:37 AM
most of the movies that come out take elements of both the 616 and ultimate universes. i think your complaint deals mainly with the non-marvel produced movies, your spiderman, x-men, fantastic four movies. but at the same time, we're never going to be completely happy with marvel movies made by other companies. they just don't understand the "magic" of the characters and stories.

i think marvel is doing things right with iron man and avengers. example: i have no problem with the avengers being formed in the "Ultimates" way...by fury and shield. it makes total sense, so it works, and its a more believable way to do it. BUT, i want the characters' origins and powers to be more along the lines of 616. and it looks like thats the way Marvel is doing it, so i'm fine with it. but then again, some characters (like thor) would probably benefit more with a 616/Ultimate origin mashup. (like you mentioned, people not believing he's a god at first, who WOULD believe someone if they said they were the god thor? lol) its just finding a good balance between the two that works.

good article though man!
StephenStrange
StephenStrange - 12/18/2009, 7:54 AM
oh man... hoo hooo! This ought to be good! lulz

@ Contrast: I can say this for you. Your not a Kool aid drinking nutrider. You are your own man, and unafraid to go against the bovine masses. Kudos and props on that

I don't know much about The Ultimates, except that they don't interest me.

Pretty much everything that people say are cool about them are things that happen or have happened in proper Marvel U too.
In fact very little of the lame meaningless details that Ultimates fans make a big deal about is original. Most of it, including Pym's domestic issues, and people saying Thor is a nutter are derived from the pages of the classic Marvel stories.

And interestingly enough a lot of the differences between Ultimate Marvel characters and Classic ones are simply arbitrary and cosmetic. They were very obviously done for the simple purpose of creating the shallow illusion of being different. But it's not really real.
Like making Fury a black dude. who really gives a [frick] what his race is? It's arbitrary and meaningless and it serves no purpose.

I actually watched the Ultimate Avengers cartoon and the thing that impressed me the most about it was that these were very much like the real characters, just in a different suit of clothes.

And also as far as I can tell all the claims about them being "more realistic" are just hot air too. It's a comic book for pete's sake lol
Despite writer's attempts to turn the comics into soap opera's with powers, it's still science fiction. That's the fact of the matter.

But that's the nature of the beast here... the whole thing is one big derivation.

So if your cool with that then cool.
Some people don't mind baking with imitation vanilla. Personally I always use the real deal. It's just a matter of taste.

As fara Ultimatizing the movies... that's kind of a shame really. But generally it's not a big enough issue to bother me.
Stumblin
Stumblin - 12/18/2009, 8:29 AM
I really don't think that Hollywood is "Ultimatizing" the characters. In all honesty I think Hollywood would slap on those black leather threads with or without the Ultimate line. Think about how after the Matrix, the trench coat trend has been the crutch for every costume designer when they need to make something appear dark or mysterious. I believe the X-Men costumes and all had nothing to do with the Ultimate's version considering the movie came out BEFORE the Ultimate line was even introduced.

Using the Ultimate line as a scape goat wont cut it, it's not the comic industry's fault, it's Hollywood, plain and simple. And that it's an adaptation of something so out there they need to ground it and make it believable.

Spider-Man's movie costume, being the closest adaptation had the raised webbings, which didn't make it until a few issues into the Ultimate Spider-Man, before the movie he had regular webbing. After the X-Men movie, in Astonishing X-Men changed their threads to the black leather.

So with that I think it's really the movies that did this themselves.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 12/18/2009, 8:48 AM
@ mulder and stumblin

i think it depends on WHAT they take and put into the movies. i have no problem with them taking the best of both universes and putting them together. whether your a 616 fan or ultimate fan, the truth of the matter is that both universes do some things really well and some things rather poorly. so it kind of makes sense to take the strengths of both, while cutting out the weaknesses.

the only thing is, when its a company that isn't marvel thats making the movies, they don't have the knowledge or the heart to determine what should be in it.

best example to spring to mind would be eddie brock in spidey 3. i'm fine with trying to go with an ultimate version of a character...IF the ultimate version is better. but in this case, everyone knows and loves the 616 eddie brock, so why go with the version that people don't like? you're shooting yourself in the foot before you even get started.

its all about finding that balance between the two universes, and i think only Marvel Studios is capable of doing that right. just my opinion
Hawksblueyes
Hawksblueyes - 12/18/2009, 9:08 AM
I try not to comment on anything Ultimate, period. People fail to take them for what they are. An alternate universe, reality or whatever you choose to call it.

I get kids today telling me all about Hawkeye being a badass Government agent, operative, whattheHelleveryouwanna call him. Thats not Clint Barton. And I'm just using him as an example because he hits near to my heart, but Marvel Universe Hawkeye would NEVER, EVER make a good government agent. He can not follow orders. He always goes against the plan or throws the monkey wrench into things. He could ( not in a million years) follow instructions simply because he was ordered to. He would stand there argueing.
I just see that there is going to come a time that the younger generation is going to loose the history of all these heroes that have had me captivated for years. I'd hate to see that happen, but if it does, I blame The Ultimates.

PS: It also bothers me greatly that some of these characters have world shaking might, and whats the first thing they do? They agree to be government weapons. Anyone with powers like some of these heroes posses should be keeping each other AND our worlds governments in line. And if you would like to argue that last statement, start off by telling me how it could be otherwise.

When a small handfull of Avengers, allong with captain Marvel, could manage to stop advanced, world conquering, galaxy controlling races like the Kree and the Skrull at one time, how in the Hell would our worlds governments keep them under thumb? Thats also what bothered me about Civil War. The heroes could have just said no.

AND YES I DO ENJOY SOME OF THE ULTIMATE LINE. JUST NOT AS MARVEL CANNON.
Stumblin
Stumblin - 12/18/2009, 10:04 AM
Eddie Brock yes emulated the Ultimate version but not Venom. Though I may be wrong wasn't Eddie's original debut as a anti Parker?

By the way, please check out my rebuttal to this article posted right above.
contrast
contrast - 12/18/2009, 10:33 AM
@CorndogBurgler--Yeah, I actually was refering (mostly) to the non-Marvel Studios produced films, which are still a thorn in the collective viewing public's side because Marvel/Disney has yet to regain the rights to at least two of their major properties. And as for a blend of the characters from 616 and Ultimate, I'm all for that, as it has been done thusfar, but way back when it was announced that Jeremy Rener was in talks to play Hawkeye, and he dropped the info about the costume, I started to get concerned that it wouldn't just be his aesthetic, and they would do something like the "Black Widow=Iron Woman/Traitor who killed Hawkeye's family" thing, which I was not too crazy about; or the "Hawkeye as a government agent" thing. And as far as the costume thing goes, I actually believe that there are a few variations on his normal costume that would work in Live-action, it's just easier for them to say "Oh, well, he dresses like that in The Ultimates."

@DarthMulder--It's interesting you bring up Pym and his marital problems, because just the other day, I had an argument with someone about whether or not he was abusive in the normal Universe (I, of course, knew that he was, but that didn't stop the other individual for praising the Ultimates for "adding depth" to the character.) I like that bit about imitation vanilla, and to it I respond; Though I prefer the tast of the real thing, and always use it when baking, if someone offers me a slice of cake made with imitation vanilla, I'll still most likely eat it, or at the very least, consider eating it.

@Stumblin--Notice I never once said that the X-Men movie stole it's costumes from the Ultimate incarnations of the characters...not only did the movie come out a year before the comic series, but to my knowledge, the Ultimate X-Men don't wear costumes that even remotely resemble the costumes from the movie. I actually was going to mention my contempt for the fact that normal continuity switched over to leather costumes after the movie, but I decided it was a little off-point. And, true, several changes similar to these may or may not have been made without the Ultimate Universe, the fact is, it's just another version of source material for them to butcher. We're basically saying the same thing (That it's Hollywood's fault), but the way we came to our conclusions differs.

@Hawksblueyes--That's actually kind of where I am-I read some Ultimate Universe comics, and I treat them as extended "What If...?" stories.
Stumblin
Stumblin - 12/18/2009, 11:02 AM
Contrast I agree with you Hollywood has sucked the some life from our beloved characters. In my article I'm just giving my perspective on things, but we're on the same team.

I shouldn't have said it was a rebuttal because it wasn't. Sorry about that!
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 12/18/2009, 11:03 AM
@ morte

lol, longshot is the worst xman of all time lol
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 12/18/2009, 11:04 AM
@ stumblin

yeah, i was only talking about eddie brock, and not venom. and yes, brock was originally introduced as an anti-parker. but the character's personality and appearance in spidey 3 is more akin to the ultimate version
Stumblin
Stumblin - 12/18/2009, 11:07 AM
I agree with you he is a little twerp in the third installment, glad we're on the same page. I'm tired of the movie franchises just going the easy route on designs, some make sense others don't, but at the same time, I know us comic fans will never be 100% on any movie, well except for me on "Iron Man."
ClintEastwood
ClintEastwood - 12/18/2009, 11:15 AM
I like the original universe so much more.
contrast
contrast - 12/18/2009, 11:25 AM
Also, as sort of a Post-Script...I think another thing that turned me off of the Ultimates initially was that it seemed like another gimmic story. We had just come off of Clone saga, dove head first into Age of Apocalypse, then crawled right on through Heroes Reborn; all of which, in my opinion, were sub-par. (some moreso than others) And personally, I feel that the, as someone above put it, "Soap opera" feel of the Ultimates isn't at all due to their "realistic" portrayal in the comics...I mean, look at West Coast Avengers. Half or more of each issue was dedicated to the in-fighting between the heroes, and Pym's guilt over building Ultron; and I didn't think that any of those points were weakened by the fact that one issue, they teamed up with a werewolf, and the next they were battling a chemical that turned people into robots.

It's all about how things are executed.
Stumblin
Stumblin - 12/18/2009, 11:45 AM
Yeah, I don't like how they emulated some of the old story arcs with their own Ultimate twist, I thought they were supposed to be going for originality, not rehashing the same thing.
StephenStrange
StephenStrange - 12/18/2009, 2:48 PM
@ Stumblin & Contrast:
But that's just it, peeps. It's not really original. It's just dressed up like it is to fool people who don't know better into thinking it is and help SELL them easier to new readers. It worked like a charm. The fresh look, extra exposition, and new sense of melodrama attracted some old school fans as well, and suddenly Marvel wasn't hemmoraging money as bad as usual.

Additionally I recall hearing somehting about the purpose of creating the Ultimates was so that people wouldn't have to deal with all the long history and continuity. But here's the thing. When I bought my first comic book it was in about 1984. It was X men # 182, and I was ten years old. Do you think I instantly grasped everything that was going on? Not even.
As a matter of fact I didn't understand a damn thing. I didn't know some of the words, I didn't really know what a mutant was supposed to be. I didn't know what SHIELD was or anything at all. But I kept reading and kept reading. I bought back issues. I read Marvel Universe and Marvel Saga. In short I learned about the histories by finding out about them the exact same way you would for if you entering into any kind of series in the middle. By going to source. Now if I could do that, why can't everyone else?

A characters history is just like my history or your history. You might not know someone's whole life story when you first meet them, but if you really want to know then MAKE AN EFFORT. Ask questions, do research.. Inherent in the assumption that dispensing with continuity is necessary is the idea that new readers won't or can't do research or ask questions. That they must be too lazy to try or something so they need a New X Men or a Ultimate X Men so they won't have to ask any questions or do any leg work.

Be that as it may, there is nothing particularly wrong with The Ultimates or that people like them. I am just not interested, and I don't think that they should include Ultimate stuff in the movies. But as I said before though it's really not that big of a deal if they do because the differences are basically minor and cosmetic.




Hawksblueyes
Hawksblueyes - 12/19/2009, 9:23 AM
Darth: You couldn't have said what I have been thinking about the Ultimates any better.
KelRaeMora
KelRaeMora - 12/19/2009, 3:39 PM
Sometimes I honestly don't understand the arguments that go one in these comments. You guys talk about the ultimate universe as if its a terrorist plot to defile the minds of new comic book readers. I love the 616 time line, and I also love the ultimate universe. I don't understand why this is blasphemy to so many people. Its as if seeing your favorite characters portrayed in any other way is considered a personal insult. No artistic conception in this art form? The bulk of the argument in this article was based on wikipedia entries for god sakes. I'd probably hate the ultimate universe too if I read about it from entries of a user driven site as opposed to the beautiful writings of Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Millar.

All I'm trying to say here is that I find die hard comic book fans seem to be prone to a general distaste for the ultimate universe. Did you all hate marvel Noir as well? Wolverine held knives between his fingers in that timeline. I am not attempting to defend the originality of the ultimate universe, only its right to exist.
Hawksblueyes
Hawksblueyes - 12/19/2009, 4:10 PM
Kel: Your absolutly right. You don't understand at all evidently. It seems you have brushed over everyones comments and not understood a single thing we have said.
There isn't a single one of these comments that denies the right of the Ultimate Universe to exist.

The general consensus here seems to be a dislike for people treating the Ultimate characters as Marvel cannon. Which is what is happening with many younger readers that don't care to familiarize themselves with the history of the regular Marvel heroes. Also the Ultimates aren't really doing anything new, they are repackaging older storylines with a prettier wrapping, and selling it as the next big thing.
StephenStrange
StephenStrange - 12/20/2009, 5:24 PM
@ Kel:
"beautiful writings"?? lololol
You make it sound like we are talking about James Joyce or something.

The world is not going to end because not everybody likes what you like. You'll just have to trust me on that one.
And like Hawksblueyes said, there's been no talk of conspiracies here.
contrast
contrast - 12/20/2009, 6:05 PM
@KelRaeMora--not Wikipedia, Marvel Wiki...true, they are both "user generated" sites, but I believe you not only misread everyone's comments, but you also misread my article. Now, if you actually look at what I said, you will realize that those "entries of a user driven site" were what prompted me to give the Ultimate Universe a second chance-the reason I hated it in the first place was because I read some of those "Beautiful writings" during the early part of the existance of the Ultimate Universe.

And for the record, I loved Marvel Noir (I'm a fan of film noir, and comics, so it was a great fit).

In a final note, if you wish to come off as "High and Mighty", actually read the comments you're responding to. It helps sometimes.
KelRaeMora
KelRaeMora - 12/24/2009, 7:53 AM
@ Everyone

Can't lie, you pretty much nailed it on the head, I honestly did just skim the other comments. I wasn't trying to come off "High and Mighty", but after re-reading what I wrote, I definitely did. Apologies all around, I meant no disrespect. I have since read the comments, and you guys know your shit. Bravo!
View Recorder