DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS: Can Marvel Studios Use Shuma-Gorath In The Upcoming Sequel?

@Fogs - exactly. Gunn should have put some bug guy in gotg and called him insect repellent. I would’ve loved the dig at Mattel

@TheWalkingCuban - as much as the edit button is a nice feature to have, it sure does seem to be cause for trouble indeed

@sadham - Maybe in the comics but for film he won't be a good main villain. I don't see very compelling action scenes with the Avengers fighting a giant eyeball, similar to how that end fight in TSS against Starro was just weak AF imo.

I feel the same way about Galactus by the way, people just want to see him because they know his name, but the actual fight I believe would be weak. This is why I'm hoping Doom is the next big bad for the Avengers. He has his Doombots that can be used as fodder to let the Avengers flex their powers, and then he can flex by 1v6+ing them similar to how Thanos did. Except it can be done even better because Doom is human sized, which would make choreographing that fight easier to be more inventive imo.

@LongMayHeReign - Yes. I just want to see Galactus because I know his name.....

Seriously?

@CorndogBurglar - So you want to see a giant Arishem like being getting blasted by 30 characters and be largely unaffected until Reed pulls out the McGuffin of all McGuffins to defeat him?

Because that sounds like a very wack climactic fight imo.


Also I'm not talking directly about you or other people who actually know about Galactus, I'm more referring to the fake people who saw Arishem in the Eternals trailer and said "OMG it's Galactus!"

But as I said before I don't see the Avengers fighting a dude bigger than earth as very compelling.

@UXASIS - 100% agree about Shuma being a lesser villain. Also just as an observation I noticed how people used to have issues with Marvel having a lot of their villains being a "dark mirror" to the hero but no one seems to mind a literal "dark mirror" for Strange?

Not saying that you said this or anything by the way, just making an observation as I too am excited to see Benny let loose!

@LongMayHeReign - A literal dark mirror is way more interesting than a separate guy with the same power set imo.

@UXASIS - He has got too little of a presence in the marketing materials to be the main villain. He just had this same one line in every trailer. He looks more "Emo" than "Evil" tbh. I think Wanda is going to be the main villain and this version of Strange going to be in a throwaway scene as a shock value. At best he is going to be a "Severus Snape" type character. Doesn't look like a villain to me.

@OmegaBlack13 - I think Strange vs a dark mirror of himself is great don't me wrong, but it still had to be built towards even if only after one solo film. They needed to establish the rules of the mystic arts which was best accomplished by having Strange fight other sorcerers.

Hulk going against the leader is not as compelling as him fighting someone who can stand toe to toe with him. Leader is a more 2nd or third film type of villain as they were clearly setting up.

The dark mirror is used in origin films because it's an effective way of setting up the heroes world and allowing them to fully show off their skill set. Then in sequels they branch out. Only for characters like Batman, Spider-man, and Superman does it usually work without that kind of antagonist. Yet eventually the dark mirror still shows up.

@CorndogBurglar - Robert E. Howard came up with the name, but it only appears in one line in "The Curse of the Golden Skull" short story where the sorcerer Rotath curses mankind by evoking the gods "Vramma ad Jaggta-noga and Kamma and Kulthas ...the fane of the Black Gods, the tracks of the Serpent Ones, the talons of the Ape Lords, and the iron bound books of Shuma Gorath." Shuma-Gorath doesn't even appear in the story and we're not even told anything about it. Marvel came up with the look, backstory, and pretty much everything else we know about the the character, that's why they can use it's look from the comics, but not it's name.

@1stDalek - I think the 2003 Fox vs. Marvel lawsuit provides the answer to how far a lawsuit would go in this case.

Context: Fox had bought the live-action rights to a bunch of X-Men characters (like Professor X, Storm, Wolverine, Jean Grey, and Shadowcat) and then Marvel later created a TV show called Mutant X.



I'll just quote the decision:

...Fox asserts that, on an individual level, there are extensive similarities between (Mutant X character first) (i) Adam and Professor Xavier, (ii) Shalimar Fox and Wolverine, (iii) Brennan Mulwray and Storm and Jubilee, (iv) Jesse Kilmartin and Shadowcat, Colossus and the Blob, and (v) Emma Delauro and Jean Grey and Rogue.

The judge did not agree. And I'll quote some specific reasoning so you can get a flavor for the judge's perspective of what matters vs. what doesn't.

...the Court agrees with defendants that the Mutant X characters are distinct from those portrayed in the X-Men Property and the X-Men film. Fox describes its character similarities at a general level of abstraction, emphasizing basic similarities common to many characters, and ignoring pronounced differences. To begin with, the characters' names are entirely distinct from one another, and the Mutant X characters neither have code names such as "Professor X," "Wolverine," "Storm," or "Rogue," nor do they wear comic-book style costumes.

As to Shalimar Fox and Wolverine, their only common ground is a linkage to the animal kingdom, and the occasional recklessness and acute sensory perception derived therefrom. Otherwise, the differences are overwhelming. While Wolverine is a "loner and rough neck with a vicious temper," Shalimar is a "sexy, extroverted blonde with a kittenish sense of humor." While Wolverine has the ability to heal himself almost instantaneously and has an implanted metal skeleton, including distinctive metal claws, Shalimar is graced with superhuman strength and speed, and excellent night vision.

Further, while Brennan Mulwray's ability to shoot lightning bolts and sparks from his hands is similar to Storm's ability to generate lightning by controlling the weather, and Jubilee, who can create fireworks with her hands, the power to generate and discharge electricity is commonplace in comic book and science fiction genres. Moreover, Brennan is male (both Storm and Jubilee are female), is unable to fly (Storm flies), can use his powers anywhere (Storm must use her powers outside), and his power is limited to sparks and bolts (Jubilee creates fireworks in various shapes, colors, and strengths and Storm controls all forms of weather)

Jesse Kilmartin's power to change his body density may resemble certain powers held by Shadowcat, who can pass through solid objects, and Colossus, who can turn his body into steel. However, the ability to change body form or density is a common trait of superheroes; defendants point out, for example, that the Vision, a character from the Avengers comic book series, like Jesse, could make himself intangible or impermeable. Also, Fox's assertion regarding Brennan's similarities to Colossus is wholly conclusory, and the record does not reflect that Colossus is part of the X-Universe of characters to which Fox obtained rights.

Finally, contrary to Fox's contention, Emma Delauro's powers are not comparable to those of Rogue or Jean Grey, beyond the fact that her powers are mental rather than physical. Emma is a so-called "telempath" or "empath," which allows her to sense the emotions of others and compel others to feel a particular way, while Jean Grey, like Professor Xavier, is telepathic (read minds) and also telekinetic (move objects), and Rogue absorbs the life force, or mutant powers, of anyone she touches. Defendants also point out that Emma is outgoing, while Rogue is "almost obsessively shy" and Jean Grey is considered an intellectual.

Reading these assessments show how granular these arguments actually get (and also how a judge probably just accepts the briefs given to him, since some of these briefs were not necessarily accurate to the Mutant X characters or the X-Men ones... as Brennan could fly and Rogue is hardly shy in the comics and cartoons).

That's a long way of saying that it really does depend. If Heroic Signatures sued, Marvel's defense would be to point out every minor difference between the movie Garganto and comic Shuma-Gorath, and also to point to any and all characters similar to both in other works (like Starro) to assert that what they've done is just made something similar-ish to Shuma-Gorath.

Where Marvel did lose to Fox in that 2003 lawsuit was in the branding, and the judge basically said they were copying the Fox X-Men logos. Branding and trademarks are the real sticking points in IP fights like this. By clearly labeling this creature as Gargato, Marvel is probably well-protected from any suit by Heroic Signatures.

After all, they own the rights to Garganto, and they can change him to be anything they want him to be... even if it's suspiciously similar to some Shuma-guma-something-or-other.

@Spock0Clock - Thanks for the highly detailed answer, that cleared up a lot of where my mind was going.