Is Darth Vader Really That Great A Villian?

Is Darth Vader Really That Great A Villian?

The other day I was wondering what makes Darth Vader so great, and I asked myself a question that I cannot answer, so please help me out in answering this question guys...

Editorial Opinion
By TheHeroGothamDeserves - Mar 28, 2014 10:03 AM EST
Filed Under: Fan Fic

First, please read this piece of dialogue, which I had added a few lines to make my point:


Darth Vader: No. I am your father.
Luke: No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!
Darth Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Luke: No! No!
Darth Vader: Luke, you can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son!
Luke: Wait what?
DV: I said, we can rule the galaxy as father...
L: No I got that piece, I just don't quite get why you want to rule it, or even why you are still standing here, alive and all.
DV: Stay on topic, Luke. I was saying...
L: You want to rule the galaxy with me. Kind offer, but no thanks; because I don't know why do you want to rule it.
DV: I don't follow.
L: I just read your mind and I can see that you are more machine than human, and that you cannot live without regular replacements of breathing tubes in your meditation chamber. When is the last time you breathed unporcessed air? Dagobah may have a lot of bogs, but the air there was ok, Hoth's air is cold, Tatooine's was hot, but at least I got to breathe them in, unpocessed. When is the last time you breathed unporcessed air? 
DV: This is totally unrelated to the current...
L: And when is the last time you ingest food? My survival kit food rations I ate on Dagobah may not be much, but the sense of being full is good. When is the last time you ate? And I don't mean fluid food injected into your remaining bloodstreams, I mean real food.
DV: This is getting really off-topic here Luke...
L: And when is the last time you felt the warmth another body in your arms? A few days ago a hot chick kissed me squarely on my lips, and that's awesome. Do you remember the taste of that? (My fanfiction dialogue is starting to sound creppy I know, please bear with me.)
DV: Actually no, but...
L: So are there anything that guves you satisfaction in your life? From what I got from reading your mind, I don't think you enjoy force-choking. (I, the author, don't think it was shown in the movies that DV enjoys it; it is more like intimidation to me.) Seriously 'dad', I don't think you get any satisfaction in life, and the way I see it, you are not getting it even if you rule the galaxy with me. So, seeiing that you gain no satisfaction in life from what you do, why don't you stick that red blade through your helmet?
DV: ehhh... I don't know son. You digress too much. Would you rule...
L: No, bye! [Let go and fall]

In case you don't get my point here, I asked myself, "What drives Darth Vader to do what he does? What does he get from his actions?" And I cannot come up with answers. That's why I wrote this article.

Now, let's compare Darth Vader to a number of other great villains.

1. Khan Noonien Singh, from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.


He was marooned on a planet, with the promise that there would be regular checkups. Then his new planet was destroyed because a neighbouring planet exploded, and as a result of that and no promised checkups, his wife and most of his followers died. Khan is angry about that, and when he did what he did in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, he got satisfaction because he was making the 'culpirt', Captain Kirk, suffer; that and outsmarting Kirk was fun.

Bottomline, Khan's motivation: get Kirk to suffer. Khan's satisfaction: seeing Kirk suffer.

2. The Operative from Serenity

River Tam somehow got information about the origin of the Reavers and Miranda, therefore she has to die/ be brainwashed by the Alliance. The Operative was sent to do the job, and he said in the movie that he believes that the information (he didin't know and didn't care whatever the information is ) cannot be publicized. He believes that killing River Tam was the right thing to do.

Bottomline, The Operative's motivation: he believes it has to be done, he blieves he is doing something that benefits the Alliance, and by extension, everyone. His satisfaction: seeing it done.

3. The Joker from The Dark Knight (who fought me and made Harvey crazy, damn that guy!)

The Joker believes that people are acting 'cilivzed' because they want to pretend that they are 'civilized'. Therefore, Joker went on a mission to show that everyone was as rotten as rotten can be. He made two ships of people 'take part in a social experiment', tried to make Batman kill, and succeeded in turning Harvey Dent into Two-face, a murderous lunatic.

Bottomline, Joker's motivation: show the world human's true natue. Joker's satisfaction: succeedin in doing so.

4. The Kurgan from Highlander (the only one)

The Kurgan is an Immortal. When an Immortal cuts off another Immortal's head, the survivng one receives the dead's 'energy' if you will, and the last Immortal standing, after all other Immortals lost their heads, receives the 'prize', which is (I believe) ultimate knowledge and a bunch of other awesome powers. The Kurgan wanted to rule the world, and what better way to rule it than to get the 'prize' and use the 'prize' to rule it? Because of this urge for power, The Kurgan goes around killing other Immortals, one of them being James Bond, Raiden's frined and mentor. (Get the refernce yourselves people.)

Bottomline, The Kurgan's motivation: the desire to rule the world, by getting the 'prize'. The Kurgan's satisfaction: getting closer to the prize day by day, and dreaming of his rule.

5. Sauron from Lord Of The Rings

Sauron used to serve another Dark Lord (I forgot the name, anyway that's not improtant), but now Sauron ruled Mordor, and he used Orcs and other creatures to plunge Middle Earth into darkness.

Among my examples Sauron is relatively most similar to Darth Vader, still I think I found Sauron's motivation: to get the finger to the 'Gods' living in the western prardise, and (I think) if Sauron got the ring back, he could reform his body, and he can start enjoying other things too, like the satisfaction of destroying things with his mace.

6. General Francis X. Hummel from The Rock (not exactly a 'great villain per se, please bear with me.)

He saw many of his fellow soldiers killed in action, and their deaths were not acknowledged by the government. He wanted to do something for his men, and he wanted to show the world that such things were done to soldiers. Therefore, he got some dealy weapons and tried to make the government paid money (or something like that, details not important.)

Bottomline, the general's motivation: to do something for his dead comrades and their family. His satisfaction: to know that he successfully got something for his dead comrades. (A pity he failed in the movie, I like that guy.)

So, let's go back to Darth Vader. Throughout Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return Of The Jedi, I never see Darth Vader express any sense of satisfaction. He didn't seem to enjoy force-choking his men, didn't seem to enjoy torturing Han. Well, okay, he could still grab power right? Yes he can, but the problem is, I still cannot see how political power can satsify him. As I mentioned above, he cannot enjoy any basic human enjoyment: breathing fresh air, eating, and company (I wrote something quite creepy I know). He doesn't seem to have friends, he doesn't seem to take joy in the fact that he was a very powerful dark-force user.

You may say, "T-800 and T-1000 has similar problem!" Yes, you are right. The Terminators have a similar problem with Darth Vader. They have no personal motivation, they don't know what is satisfaction. However, there is a major difference: the Terminators are robots! They are programmed to kill. Their motivation, though not personal like Khan's, are legit and believable and strong. In contrast, we know that Darth Vader was still human, his brain was still the 'command centre'. That is why Darth Vader's lack of a personal motivation bugs me.

And I get it. Darth Vader was pure evil, he was intimidating, he was iconic, and all that good stuff. And I am trying to trash talk Darth Vader. I am simply asking you, who are reading right now, to answer this question, "What is Darth Vader's personal motivation? What satisfaction could he gain from his actions, that could prompt Darth Vader to continue doing what he did? If there was no satisfaction, why didn't Darth Vader just kill himself? Or is it that Darg Vader is so cool and so awesome that he does not need a 'motivation' like the other pussy villains?"

What do you think? Please comment below! Please 'enlighten' me on this subject! Please no trolling!
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MrCameron
MrCameron - 3/28/2014, 10:46 AM
What Soto said. The prequels turned Vader into a big baby in a suit of armor.
QuestionDAnswer
QuestionDAnswer - 3/28/2014, 10:51 AM
This guy is the number one bad guy for me.


SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 3/28/2014, 11:10 AM
Honestly, motivations are a great thing. It informs us of the character, his wants, his needs, and how those things come into conflict with each other. The main character of any story NEEDS to have proper, clear motivation. But when it comes to the villains...really, it depends on the villain, because sometimes they can get away with having no clear motivation.

Take The Joker from The Dark Knight, for example. Yeah, as you said, he wants to make a point about the morality of Gotham's citizens and expose humanity's true nature. But WHY does he want to do these things? It's never explained, and it makes him that much more terrifying and mysterious as a villain. It works, because the very plot of the movie focuses on what his motivation is. Time is spent with Bruce asking that very question to Alfred, in the hopes of using that information to bring the Joker down...but they never do find out.

That's how I feel Darth Vader was (before the God-awful prequels, that is). He's this unstoppable force of evil, hellbent on wiping out the Rebellion. Why, exactly? Well...we don't really find out in the original trilogy, and it doesn't really matter anyway. Little hints are given along the way, but the lack of information here is what makes the ultimate plot twist (that he's Luke's father) THAT much more meaningful and powerful.

...Then the prequels came along, and George Lucas' misguided attempts to craft an entire trilogy focusing on why Darth Vader became who he was...as if any of that needed a whole trilogy-worth of backstory. Ugh. Seriously, if anyone here actually thinks the prequels are good movies (even Episode III), go take a few hours out of your day and watch the RedLetterMedia reviews of each of the prequels. He tears them apart and does it in a way that's much more entertaining and hilarious than I ever could. You won't regret it.
Doughdzm
Doughdzm - 3/28/2014, 11:33 AM
Vader is an excellent villain. Vader was motivated by being the strongest in the force. He was motivated to be the last Jedi. Vader does that by staying close to Palpatine and living the Sith law of the rule of 2.
Wolf38
Wolf38 - 3/28/2014, 12:12 PM
I just lost a post. Bummer. Anyway, there are a few different angles:

1. Because the Dark Side. It's like an addiction that isn't driven by "satisfaction" so much as dependency. "Once you start down the dark path...
2. Sauron and Vader are related in the sense that, Star Wars being influenced by Lord of the Rings and other classic mythology, they are overt symbols of evil. Initiall, Vader is simply that, dark cape, scary mask and all.
3. Through Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith (the one prequel I like), it's revealed that there is a very tortured soul behind the mask. He's chained to the Dark Side and Palpatine, but the once-idealist Anakin is not completely gone. Luke naturally draws the conflict to the surface.

Also, the Joker is not a good example IMHO because the point of the Joker is that there isn't any real/comprehensible motivation. He's just a crazy, sadistic anarchist or whatever, not matter what he says.
Wolf38
Wolf38 - 3/28/2014, 12:13 PM
@Doughdzm, good point.
Gimmemorathat19
Gimmemorathat19 - 3/28/2014, 12:19 PM
Vader is a great villain because of the presence just his name in Star Wars brings fear into just about everyone who is asked about him. Only Obi Wan Kenobi doesnt show great fear in response to Vader because he knew who he once was
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 3/28/2014, 12:25 PM
He's a Sith. The whole goal of the Sith is to rule. Every single Sith Lord has tried to take over the galaxy. Its their whole purpose.

its also their purpose to live by the Rule of 2. One Sith Lord, one Sith Apprentice. The purpose of the Apprentice is to become powerful enough to overthrow the current Sith Lord, or die trying. This ensures that the most powerful of the Sith is always in control. If the Sith Lord ends up getting killed by the Apprentice, its okay to them because they know that the most powerful has now taken over. Its their religion.

So yeah, he wants to rule because he is following the Code of the Sith, which again, is basically their religion.

WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 3/28/2014, 12:25 PM
Lol. Here....let me help you.

Processed.
Unprocessed.

I thought his motivations were pretty cut and dry. He wanted to destroy Palpatine, he was promised more power, Palpatine didn't deliver. He knows he was lied to, but he doesn't think he has the power to do it himself. Thats why he followed him for decades till he found out about his son, and thought it was his chance to take him down, and rule the galaxy the way he would think is best. Deep down, Vader is a good person that wants to protect and save people. The Empire, was supposed to make the galaxy peaceful. Unfortunately racism in the empire caused despicable acts that caused people to hate and fear them. Emperor Palpatine thought that only through the power of the dark side, could he bring peace to the galaxy. Their both flawed villains. The Star Wars version of Magneto. They think their heroes and doing the best thing for the galaxy. Palpatines thirst for power motivates almost everything in those six films. Part seven wont feel right without his influence. Bring on the Palpatine clone!
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 3/28/2014, 12:33 PM
The rule of two is a farce to the Sith. Their deceivers, and they plot to take out their masters. They usually have an apprentice of their own. Theres not usually just one. Once the Master has provided the Apprentice with enough knowledge, they strike.

During the Phantom Menace. Darth Maul.
Attack of the Clones. Darth Tyrannus.
Revenge of the Sith. Darth Vader.

Now its obvious how far ahead Palpatine made his plans. Dooku was Tyrannus, and a jedi master. Palpatine had plans to use Dooku even as Darth Maul was his apprentice. Part of his plan. Dooku knows how the Sith work, thats why he was trying to train an apprentice of his own, Asajj Ventress. Vader had his secret apprentice, Starkiller. Thats the way the Sith work.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 3/28/2014, 12:58 PM
@ Wylee

Yes and no. By that point, yeah, they were all deceiving each other. However, Darth Bane is the one that created the Rule of Two. This was in place, basically until Palpatine took over.

If you move ahead, even further in time, Darth Krayt created the Rule of One. One Sith Lord, and many lesser apprentices.

Every Sith Lord has their own interpretation of how to gain strength. This is why we've seen the Sith go from a giant army of Sith, to only two, to One, to many again. But at the end of the day, the whole motivation behind it is, "How do we become the strongest?" Again, strength is the whole point of the Sith.
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 3/28/2014, 1:21 PM
@TheMexicanSupermansMacaqueIsHairy, Heck, I wasn't even old enough to watch movies when the original trilogy came out, but I can at least recognize them for the cultural impact it had, and the sheer quality of those movies compared to the prequels. There's no nostalgia clouding my opinions.

The original trilogy is, pure and simple, better made movies than the prequels. It's apples and oranges. You can like the CGI or the colors or the action or the fight choreography in the prequels all you want, but it just doesn't compare to the actual storytelling in the originals. It's almost not even up for debate.

If you really did watch the RedLetterMedia reviews and still haven't changed your mind, then it all comes down to what you personally want from the movies you watch. If you just love the Star Wars franchise and simply love anything associated with it, then okay. If you love flashy action sequences and lightsaber fights and backstory for literally everything, then more power to you.

But it's almost ignorant to say that both trilogies have their flaws and simply leave it at that. They certainly do, but the flaws in the prequels blow any of the flaws in the originals out of the water.
wookiefit
wookiefit - 3/28/2014, 1:25 PM
Yes! Yes he is.

Don't have the pic, but in Star Wars Tales he fights a clone of Maul in a volcano. Maul has him on his knees and is about to finish him from behind (shut up Gusto) and Vader turns his light saber around and ignites it thru himself to kill Maul. Maul asks "How can you defeat me?" and Vader says "Because I hate myself more than you" . Paraphrasing a bit, but you get the idea. Awesom!
wookiefit
wookiefit - 3/28/2014, 2:26 PM
fortycals
fortycals - 3/28/2014, 3:09 PM
The Quest for power is its own motivation, not the benefits of that power.
Facade
Facade - 3/28/2014, 3:51 PM
Vadar was awesome in New Hope, but Lucas made it into a soap opera with Empire and the character lost his intensity.
sikwon
sikwon - 3/28/2014, 8:22 PM
1. Palatine manipulated him into killing the ones he loved by using his anger (yoda..."that way leads to the dark side"..Empire strikes back). 2. He truly believed he was doing the right thing. The God awful 1,2,3 made two things clear. 1. Anakin was a broken child that was to full of hate and rage to truly grasp the power of the force. 2. He WANTED to be the hero, to over come his own demons and unify the universe and bring peace. He wanted this for personal reasons, ie selfish reasons. That went against the force and that with his anger is why he was so susceptible to the dark side. It wasn't greed with him. It was anger and selfish intentions. Remember, the Jedi are basically a religious order. Think of it as Buddhist tenants. Then add samurai ethos of service. If you read ANY real samurai tenants or theology they are servants to their masters. Jodi are servants to the force. THAT Is Ware Vader Went bad. He wanted the force to serve what he believed was correct and it was fed by anger and desire (Amadala). He wasn't serving, he bent the power to serve HIM. That turned on him and made I'm inherently evil.
wookiefit
wookiefit - 3/28/2014, 9:09 PM
@ sikwon

You said it perfectly.

TheHeroGothamDeserves
TheHeroGothamDeserves - 3/28/2014, 9:18 PM
Reading your comments, I realized that you guys usually:
1. Say that Darth Vader is awesome because he is iconic, cool and menacing, or
2. Say that Darth Vader is cool and then quote some expanded universe stuff, or
3. Trash talk the prequels.

First things first, I don't hate the prequels, but yeah trash talk them alll you like here, you are among friends.

Secondly, now I am in no position to trash talk the expanded universe as I know a lot of those material are great stories, but I do believe the character Darth Vader should be able to stand on its own. I myself just lifted material from the original trilogy. An argument can be made that I used the fact that we saw Anakin's dick got burnt from Revenge of the Sith, but still that's minimum material.

Okay you say Darth Vader want to master dark force, that is his motivation. All right, does he get to eat after he does that? Or is the fact that Darth Vader is still living for something 'dark' makes him more tragic?

Anyway thanks for the comments people, it is just I still don't think Darth Vader has any motivation after reading the comments.
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 3/28/2014, 9:20 PM
@Corndogburglar. I didnt finish the books on Darth Bane. Whatever happened between him and his apprentice? The girl.....cant think of her name right now. Been a while since I read Star Wars but it was one of the last novels on Star Wars I read.
WYLEEJAY
WYLEEJAY - 3/28/2014, 10:26 PM
@Theherogothamdeserves. He can take his helmet off in his meditation chamber you brought up earlier. Thats when he would eat. Hes a person. Not a machine. Just his arms, legs and lungs for the most part are mechanical. Your trying real hard to prove a point, so I will give you a thumbs up for effort. Thanks for the fun read.

@Corndogburglar. So you tempted me, and I had to look it up. Funny that you brought up Bane. Since he did create the rule of two. I knew that already from stories I read. He also was apparently the first one to break it and chose a new apprentice. Then failed to kill his former apprentice, Darth Zannah. She then took his new apprentice as her own after he died. Like I said, its a farce.....a loose rule. A rule, created by people that dont follow.......the rules.

Stay thirsty my friends...
Lhornbk
Lhornbk - 3/28/2014, 10:29 PM
*sigh* more fanboys whining about the prequels *sigh*

As others have pointed out, the dark side is basically the ultimate addiction. He wants power to save his wife, is deceived into succumbing to the dark side (kind of like the first hit of meth or crack) and is then lost, until love of family brings him back (just as family can sometimes, although not always, save an addict.) After the battle with Obi-Wan, he is in constant pain, which fuels his rage and gives the dark side a greater hold on him.

But, frankly, while he is a great villain, the Emperor, his boss, is the ultimate evil of Star Wars.
pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 3/29/2014, 12:06 AM
I will say Vader deserves his place as one of the greatest movie villains of all time. He is iconic, his look menacing, a great character, controlling of his surroundings, and lastly having one of the greatest movie fights of all time. His fight with Luke in Empire is movie legend it is amazing to watch Vader almost play with Luke as an adult does a child mainly because that is what Luke is to him a a barely trained Jedi padawan versus a Sith master. The fight was amazing.

Lastly I will give my thoughts on the prequels. I agree they are a mess if you like them that is fine but realistically they are a mess especially Phantom Menace. Lucas even says as much in first viewing of the final product he admits that the ending is a mess but it was impossible to fix because how integral all the parts were and was impossible at that point to fix. Lucas when controlled is a great director he needs people around him to help corral some of his ideas. You see it from Return on when he got full control things got messy. Finally though back to Vader and the prequels I think as many have said the prequels all being about Vader's fall was a mistake if anything the best way the prequels should have been done was to really be Obi-Wan's story to see everything through his eyes.
marvel72
marvel72 - 3/29/2014, 5:24 AM
darth vader is the greatest screen baddie ever,nuff said.
Huguex
Huguex - 3/29/2014, 5:52 AM
Allright. You got a point there. But then again, as I've read the comments, Vader is a misterious villain.

Episode IV: Darth Vader represents fear. He is the center of the political and militar power. His motivation, therefore, is eliminate a rebellion that can cause his power to fall.

Episode V: Throught the whole movie we see Vader chase the Rebellion and, of course, specially Luke and we don't get a WHY till the end, when he reveals the thruth. So, his motivation is finding the son he didn't know he had, and share the power with him, because...

Episode VI: Vader as a villain disappears as the Emperor rises to be the main antagonist. Then we get a complex character that struggles between the love (and pride) for his son and his allegiance to the dark side and to the Emperor. In the end, we find out that Vader was waiting. Wainting for his son to be at his side and defeat the Emperor, who he hates. In the end we find out that, even though he thinks he can't escape, he wants to ("It's to late for me, son").

There. Just a couple of thoughts.
TheHeroGothamDeserves
TheHeroGothamDeserves - 3/29/2014, 9:02 AM
@Huguex, good analysis.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 3/29/2014, 5:28 PM
Wylee

Sorry for the late reply. Yeah, i suppose you could look at it as a farce to an extent. But Bane really did create the Rule of Two out of a genuine belief that it was the best way to keep the Sith strong. It was something that was still in place for a long time after Bane.

But yeah, the Bane novels are great. You looked it up so I wont bore you with it as you mentioned the important parts :)

And even though Bane gets the credit for creating the Rule of Two, wasn't it his female apprentice that put that idea in his head? Its been a while since i read them, but I thought it was her that swayed him in that direction. I could be wrong.
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