Satisfying SPIDER-MAN: BEYOND THE SPIDER-VERSE Conclusion Promised By Phil Lord And Christopher Miller

@MCUKnight11 - most of these stories look like studio interference, that's a big difference

@bobevanz - Which incels are we talking about? The ones who like it lame and gay or the ones who don't?

@bobevanz -
@WhatIfRickJames -
While the episode definitely makes a jab at both sides, it is fully accurate to how Disney have been operating putting pandering above quality writing (Primarily because they are financially incentive to do so through D&E schemes and chances to awarding bodies) and is definitely a lot more critical of Disney.

This focus on a criticism primarily regarding Disney makes sense as from a story telling standpoint, there's nothing new or original or even unique about trying to insult fans of franchises. It's happened for decades and just cycles through a new format every few years: Nerd, Satanists (D&D), Nazis, Racists, Sexists, Incel, Toxic, etc... just buzz words for people to use to try and insult people for caring about something. Also quite frankly,there's way too much overlap for a show like South Park to actively agree with the abuse that Disney and media has placed on fan-bases. If it did so then it would alienate a massive amount of its audience.

As such the episode, though definitely being light on both sides, ends up being a damning criticism of Disney showing them more focused on how they appear as opposed to their finances, showing them as obsessed with appearances, showing the leadership as incompetent and directly blaming Kathleen Kennedy for a large part of it.

South Park taking this stance enabled the media to side with South Park, forcing Disney to finally admit that a problem exists (even if they blame quantity), proceeding to delay and reshoot upcoming projects like Captain America 4.

Though admittedly, we know for a fact that Disney have had the ideologies so hammered into them over time and surrounded themselves with so many like-minded individuals in an industry that actively rewards the mindsets that South Park parodied - as such there is zero chance of Disney rectifying any problems.

@bobevanz - They put Spider-Man Unlimited in there and he's the same version just with a different voice actor.

@Scarilian - You'd prefer for a more rushed product with a meat grinder of creatives?

Also, what do you mean by it being impossible to have a satisfying conclusion? Are we talking about the resolution of the canon events conundrum?

@Scarilian - Everything you just said gets me hyped, lol. I know that's obviously not your intention, but it does.

I thought that's what you were talking about. I said a similar thing a few months back that I almost don't want a third film, because a third film would have to give a definitive answer to this conundrum and that could be reductive and unsatisfying.

I've always liked art that poses questions rather than attempts to give answers. And Across The Spider-verse is one of the best that I've ever seen to do this.

The film Assassination Nation presented really interesting questions and while I was watching it I was loving it, but then the ending was a bunch of squeeky teenagers giving all the answers so that we could go home satisfied. It ruined the movie for me a little bit. The questions it gave were interesting and had no easy answers, but for them feel the need to give it an ending lessened the film. The answers were unsatisfactory and reductive.

Across the Spider-verse posed both sides of this philosophical arguments in such a strong way.The ending that you prefer, that Miles accepts his father's death and his failings and creation of Spot, etc is similar to The Flash, a film that was coincidentally started with a Lord and Miller treatment. In that Barry is trying to defy fate because he doesn't want his mother to die, but in the end he accepts that he can't change things and needs to let go. He realises that you cannot escape your fortune.
But that film was very black and white, because if he didn't accept fate and let his mother die, then the multiverse would have been destroyed. We saw it happening. His mother dying was a canon event that needed to happen to save the multiverse.
But for Miles to do this would, like you say, be reductive of Miguel's story. It would make him more of a tragic villain, and I like that, but it does reduce his philosophy and his philosophy was an interesting one.

Ideologically it's the age old argument of control vs chaos. Fascism vs anarchy. The two polar extremes of our political society. Extreme right vs extreme left.

Miguel need to control things so that the structures around us don't collapse. Hobie thinks we should let the natural laws of chaos govern us and just go with the flow. To live free.

Nolan dealt with these two rival philosophies in The Dark Knight. The way he did it was to give us a clear good vs evil narrative on the surface, but to then make the subtext just interesting enough for us to question the film's protagonist and the system he represents.

So it's not an answer that has any clear resolution. Maybe they will let us decide for ourselves somehow and democracy will win the day, lol.

But I kinda have faith in the producers and general creatives of the Spider-verse trilogy. I'm sure wherever they go will be satisfying. And I'll bet they don't even have the answers yet, or if they think they do then the answers might change. They might discover them during the process.

A lot of brilliant art has this kind of free creative energy an Lord and Miller's work is always a good example of how this can work. That Gwen scen like you said was a last minute thing. Could they have done better with more time, and money? Well, we're about to find out. So maybe it's a good thing that they have more time?

But your main problem there is you felt you were lied to. I don't think that's fair though. This was originally supposed to be just one movie and halfway through production they split it into two movies and needed to give us a cliffhanger at the end. The cliffhanger felt sudden, so they added the Gwen getting the band back together scene to give us some impetus and start to get us all excited.

Then they pushed the release date forward, because apparently the working environment was such a stress that it was a meat grinder than was not for the faint of heart and we got all these horror stories from animators who dropped out or were fired.

It's something that needed to happen, not just that we might get a better product, but to also create a more stress-free working environment.
Lord and Miller like to wing it sometimes, they like to be free (more along Hobie's stance than Miguel's) but then the release date means that if they change something, animators have to switch gears real fast and with less time and that ends up with L&M being more like the fascistic Miguel.

So the extra lead time gives them the leg room they need to make sure that the product they are delivering is what they want it to be; The best that it can be.

And that means that the release date changes. They didn't lie to us. They changed the release date. It happens all the time.

@Rosraf - Seriously? What was disappointing about it?