LOKI: Former DOCTOR WHO Showrunner Russell T. Davies Slams Loki Bisexual Reveal As "Ridiculous" And "Pathetic"

LOKI: Former DOCTOR WHO Showrunner Russell T. Davies Slams Loki Bisexual Reveal As "Ridiculous" And "Pathetic"

Former Doctor Who showrunner Russell T. Davies has taken aim at Loki's big reveal about Tom Hiddleston's God of Mischief being bisexual, describing the scene as a "ridiculous, craven, feeble gesture."

By Nighthawk01 - Aug 12, 2021 06:08 AM EST
Filed Under: Loki
Source: TV Insider

In Loki's third episode, titled "Lamentis," the titular God of Mischief revealed that he's been romantically involved with both princes and princesses. With that, it was confirmed that the Asgardian is bisexual, and while it was a subtle moment, it's still one that meant a lot to many fans. 

Some were understandably critical, arguing that it didn't mean a lot for representation in the MCU, especially as Loki almost immediately then started developing romantic feelings for a woman. Equally as unimpressed was former Doctor Who showrunner and Queer as Folk and It's a Sin creator Russell T. Davies. 

Talking about the place queer and LGBTQ+ stories have in the streaming world, Davies quickly took aim at Loki. "I think huge, cleaning warning bells are ringing as the giants rise up with Netflix and Disney Plus especially. I think that’s a very great worry. Loki makes one reference to being bisexual once, and everyone’s like, ‘Oh my god, it’s like a pansexual show.’"

"It’s like one word. He said the word ‘prince,’ and we’re meant to go, ‘Thank you, Disney! Aren’t you marvellous?’" David continued. "It’s a ridiculous, craven, feeble gesture towards the vital politics and the stories that should be told." He'd later add that the moment was a "pathetic" attempt at queer representation, so this clearly wasn't a scene that struck a chord with him.

Disney is taking baby steps when it comes to an increased presence of LGBTQ+ characters and stories; in the MCU, Eternals is expected to feature a gay couple, while Thor: Love and Thunder promises to explore Valkyrie's quest to find a Queen. Whether that's enough is up for debate.

Loki's bisexuality means a lot to a large number of MCU fans, though, so to dismiss it as quickly as this...well, we're not sure Davies is entirely justified in that respect. 

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TheFinestSmack
TheFinestSmack - 8/12/2021, 4:56 AM
Wish this guy would come back and save Doctor Who.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 5:03 AM
"It’s like one word. He said the word ‘prince,’ and we’re meant to go, ‘Thank you, Disney! Aren’t you marvellous?’"

I'm always confused when this is how people take small bits of representation like that Loki scene.
Catmanlives
Catmanlives - 8/12/2021, 6:44 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - Yeah it's a bit OTT.
YonnyLayna
YonnyLayna - 8/12/2021, 7:27 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - it's how was promoted at nausseam especially on this si te.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 7:32 AM
@YonnyLayna - Yea but.....that's a choice made by the people who watched the show and run sites like this. I'm not seeing how that's reflecting negatively on the people who made the show.
globaltravels
globaltravels - 8/12/2021, 8:09 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - the very definition of “give an inch, they take a mile”. these people are never satisfied and never will be.
Spock0Clock
Spock0Clock - 8/12/2021, 11:48 AM
@globaltravels - More like "give them table scraps and they demand a full meal", but that's not ridiculous when they've watched the utter cornucopia of straight romance that has dominated live-action media for a hundred years and they're being told to be satisfied with an off-handed comment in a series that is fundamentally disinterested in the LGBTQ romantic experience.

You cannot say "these people will never be satisfied" when they've never had anything close to equality or proportionate representation. And no, a handful of queer characters on a niche network like CW isn't equality when the dominant mainstream outlets out there (like Disney) are pussyfooting around the topic trying to split the difference between a vibrant and vastly diverse community on one side and an openly hostile heteronormative reactionary force on the other with an occasional token designed to be as inoffensive to bigots as possible.

There are apparently a lot of people who genuinely felt seen by Loki, and I don't want to take anything away from them or the show for that. That's great. But when the entire MCU for 10 years has been building up to the climax of:

∙ Tony Stark settling down with his Goop wife to raise an protect his daughter, reinforcing the cultural primacy of the traditional nuclear family.

∙ Steve Rogers violating causality itself to claim the one achievement he was denied in life, marriage with a woman whose image he'd carried for years (and who remains conspicuously silent and agentless in the their reunion).

Tony and Steve are great characters and their Endgame conclusions are satisfying, but what is the message being sent here? The strongest, most consistent message of the MCU (in relations to romance) is that heteronormative coupling is as important the fate of the world. It's truly not unreasonable for other people to see this and say to Marvel "okay, fine, now what about people like me?"

But you've told on yourself in your comment, when you admitted that Loki was "an inch". How stingy and mean are you that you expect people to be satisfied with a meager inch, when straight people are happily and repeatedly given miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and etc...?
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/12/2021, 12:20 PM
@OmegaDaGrodd - faux progression. You can call someone a homosexual in a show but it’s a fart in the wind if they don’t [frick] their sex. People on this site and others made a big deal of it like it was actual representation. It really wasn’t.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 12:57 PM
@McMurdo - Representation is representation, it's just not anything all that worthy of big celebration outside of what it means for IPs of this size that have for a very long time been very white and very straight.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 1:02 PM
@globaltravels - I'm not sure who "these people" are that you're referring to, but I think what's happening here is a mix up of "a Disney owned IP did a bit of progression and everyone's so starved they went gaga over it" with "Disney gave an inch because they think it's worth as much as a mile" which are 2 very different things.

I'm not sure how much Davies is plugged into the internet discourse surrounding this stuff, so I can totally see how one could get mixed up with the other (and tbf, Disney are well aware of how popular the Marvel brand are so it's not unrealistic to think they predicted this would be celebrated more than it was warranted)
Scarilian
Scarilian - 8/12/2021, 1:46 PM
@OmegaDaGrodd -
If they honestly wanted to explore Loki's pansexual aspects they should have at least had him fall for a male version of himself also.
JonC
JonC - 8/12/2021, 2:22 PM
@OmegaDaGrodd - clearly there are some people desperate for any representation however little... and to hear it from a big company actually means more to them than if a large statement comes from a small company. And rightly so, they recognize Disney's voice, however small, will reach far and wide... whereas (insert name of small indie playhouse here) down the street won't reach much beyond down the street.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 3:24 PM
@Scarilian - Loki is not a show about Loki's pansexuality, so your comment doesn't make a ton of sense. We don't ever talk about what something "honestly" wants to do regarding sexuality until that sexuality isn't straight. Loki's pansexual, and the show made it a point to state that. Not much more to unpack than that
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/12/2021, 3:27 PM
@JonC - oh I agree broadly that Disney related media doing things like this is huge for a variety of reasons, I just think that's overall a reflection of the facts of life as we know it right now rather than something Marvel are expecting people to pat them on the back for (although, there could definitely be some of that in play as well)
YouAreCorrect
YouAreCorrect - 8/12/2021, 10:15 PM
@Spock0Clock - Ha! This would be an empty comment section if it wasnt for 'heteronormative coupling'. 🤣😂
YouAreCorrect
YouAreCorrect - 8/12/2021, 10:16 PM
@Spock0Clock - Wow. I'm trying to understand... are you actually saying that the cultural primacy of a traditional nuclear family is a bad thing for society?
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/13/2021, 6:23 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - I can say a fireman in a show, But if you don’t see me put out a fire does it matter? Is it truly representing firemen?
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/13/2021, 6:56 AM
@McMurdo - Loki being pansexual mattered quite a bit to a lot of people in the LGBTQ community, so there's your answer to whether or not it "mattered"

On the question of truly representing, There is no such thing as "true representation", there are just levels and degrees of it because there is no one "true" version of anything. It's better to have your fireman putting out a fire, but If you've been scared to even acknowledge the existence of firemen because a large portion of your audience are bigoted towards firemen, the decision to acknowledge the existence of firemen is significant, even if it isn't the most courageous act you could have performed on behalf of the firemen community
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/13/2021, 11:52 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - lol ya maybe on Twitter. Mentioning Loki [frick]s dudes once in awhile with nothing but a fart in the wind line whilst proceeding to fall in love with a girl did about zero for the LGBTQ community outside of the Twitterverse. Donald Trump can “acknowledge” he isn’t a white supremicist as many times as he wants. Actions speak. If Disney is worried about their bigoted audience, they aren’t progressing anything if said fears keep them from acting it out on screen. Maybe season 2??
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/13/2021, 2:56 PM
@McMurdo -

" lol ya maybe on Twitter. Mentioning Loki [frick]s dudes once in awhile with nothing but a fart in the wind line whilst proceeding to fall in love with a girl did about zero for the LGBTQ community outside of the Twitterverse"

Neither you nor I have any idea what a line in a show doesn't do for a community we're not a part of, so you don't have to pretend you do. And tons of members of the LGBTQ community tweeting about how much it meant to them is definitely significant, but if you're incapable of digesting other people's thoughts over social media, you may want to go find some gay/bi people in person who care about pop media representation and ask them how they feel about a main character in a popular show from the biggest IP in the world identifying as Bi

The "twitterverse" isn't a hivemind just like the "LGBTQ Community" isn't a hivemind. It's just individuals and their thoughts which you should seek out rather than speak for with little insight of your own

"If Disney is worried about their bigoted audience, they aren’t progressing anything if said fears keep them from acting it out on screen"

Seems you need to look up the definition of progress. Going from barely even acknowledging the existence of gay people to making your main character state he's pansexual is definitely "progress", it's just.....not the fullest version of it. Marvel's had no non hetero main characters and now they have one. That's "progress" with no need to force a caveat
Drace24
Drace24 - 8/13/2021, 3:33 PM
@Spock0Clock - "You cannot say "these people will never be satisfied" when they've never had anything close to equality or proportionate representation."

Yes, but how does proper representation actually look like? Everyone critisizes but noone seems to be able to come up with a "right way" to do it. And believe me, as a writer myself I want to learn how to do it right, but I'm getting so many mixed messages.

Dumbledore was celebrated at first but then critisized, because he wasn't "gay enough"? While the girl from "Mitchell's vs the Machines" was celebrated as a good example for queer representation, even though she really only wore a rainbow button and didn't know how deoderant worked.

I'm especially confused by the discourse surrounding Pixar's Luca. Where some people thought it's a Queer allegory, but also wasn't queer enough, so it was shamed as queerbaiting. Which is odd because it was never supposed to be about queerness in the first place, it was about childhood and friendship. And when the director said this, he was shamed for allegedly spreading the stereotype that queerness is just relationships and same-sex romance, even though that is exactly what they wanted to see more of originally.


So to recap: A story can be too queer and at the same time not enough. It needs to be treated as normal but also to be specifically highlighted. And you shouldn't do it to much, cuz that's stereotypical and not enough cuz that's queerbaiting. When you are advertising it, you are just trying to "score points". But when you don't do it, then you are a coward. And when you make it wrong, you get shamed for it.

I honestly don't know what to do. But I'm starting to understand why many artists are afraid to touch this subject, because we seem to do everything in our power to make it more complicated and hotter than the sun. Maybe it's just me as an introvert, but... aren't social interactions enough of a minefield already, nowadays?

This is CLEARLY a way more touchy and loaded subject than heterosexual relationships ever were. We abbreviate the full spectrum of queerness as "LGBTQIA+" for a reason. Clearly it is incredibly complex and diverse and EVERYONE is still in the process of learning about it. Add to that the emotional baggage and the sheer diversity of different views. I mean, heck. It's not like the LGBTQ themselfs have figured it all out. Allies tend to talk about minorities as if they were a monolith. As if we they would all always a agree with each other and speak with one voice, like a hive-mind. But truth is: the LGBTQ debate each other CONSTANTLY! They are incredibly divided on so many topics. Over definitions, over what constitutes discrimination, over how many genders there actually are or how an equal world would even look like and the right methods to achieve it. They don't agree on the usage of the word "Queer", since it used to be a slur. And obviously, they don't all agree on what representation would look like.
And that's not surprising given how broad and diverse this group is. So is it really that surprising and unforgivable, that artists are a bit struggling with it?


Why can't we just admit that, apperantly, noone really knows how to do it right? That there simply is no universally correct way that is accepted by everyone and that society, even the side of it that really tries, is still working to figure this out? And that the mere attempt is always atleast... something?

I really think it would help a lot if audiences would just chill out with the constant accusations and the shaming and become a bit more constructive.
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/14/2021, 6:34 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - “Neither you nor I have any idea what a line in a show doesn't do for a community we're not a part of, so you don't have to pretend you do.”

LOL rigggghhttt cuz we just cannot possibly perceive truth if we aren’t a part of the group said corporation is attempting to represent. I call nonsense on that one. All of us heard the same one liner in that episode so I think regardless of our color, sex, creed, whatever, we can perceive it quite adequately.

“And tons of members of the LGBTQ community tweeting about how much it meant to them is definitely significant”

😁 precisely.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/14/2021, 7:15 AM
@McMurdo -

"LOL rigggghhttt cuz we just cannot possibly perceive truth if we aren’t a part of the group said corporation is attempting to represent."

You can say you perceive whatever you want, you're just clearly ignorant of the thing you're talking about in this instance, which is why I recommended you actually speak with members of the group who actually care about this sort of thing rather than try and blindly speak for them. If you want to talk about what's "perceived" you may want to actually inform your own perception, otherwise all you're doing here is arguing that your own ignorance is bliss, which I'm not going to debate you on
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/14/2021, 8:50 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - so ignant I’m with it buddy keep it rollin!!
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/14/2021, 8:51 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - I actually do care about it hence why I’m agreeing with Mr Doc Who. I care enough to whine about it on the internet because the internet’s feelings on this stuff is so relevant. I’m here for the Culture. This single throwaway line….. just wasn’t it.
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/14/2021, 9:15 AM
@McMurdo -

I have no issue with you piggybacking off of another person's personal thoughts, I'm just noting that your own independent perception would be much less ignorant if it was informed by getting input from people within the community who care about representation. Ask the people who felt significantly seen by that line how "throwaway" it was to them, because otherwise all you have is your own blissful ignorance (which again, is totally fine)
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/14/2021, 9:35 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - hilarious that you think you can speak for said community in the slightest
OmegaDaGrodd
OmegaDaGrodd - 8/14/2021, 9:51 AM
@McMurdo -

Seems you got lost somewhere in this discussion, because I've already stated that neither of us speak for this community, so it might be good to slow yourself down and read more carefully in order to avoid this kinda mistake. I don't speak for that community, my thoughts are formed partially by actually listening to them

I'll just again recommend that you move past your own ignorance and seek out a wide range of thoughts on this from those within the community, either in person or via social media. You'll find a wide range of people who felt truly seen and recognized by this and many others who felt it was trivial and miniscule. That's the point of representation and progress though, it can still have a ways to go while still being highly impactful.
McMurdo
McMurdo - 8/14/2021, 10:03 AM
@OmegaDaGrodd - long winded
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