Avengers: Not deep enough?

Avengers: Not deep enough?

People are upsetting me by saying "Oh Avengers sucked it wasn't deep enough, it wasn't pretentious enough for my liking" Here is my take on that argument.

Editorial Opinion
By Preacherfanatic7 - May 14, 2012 06:05 PM EST
Filed Under: Avengers

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I really believe that. And if you don't agree with me, ok, you don't have to. This is my honest opinion. Buuuuuuut Don't go around saying that I didnt like something. There have been articles saying that we as a fandom did not like Avengers, that it was a let down to Fans. I am a fan, i wasn't let down. They try to convince me that i didnt really like the film and that i am in denial. [frick] YOU! Who ever says that! This article is for you.



I love comic books, and comic book movies. I think they are fun and excited, I do not love all comic book movies however, i was not a fan of Shumacher Batman, because it was more of a cartoon than the cartoon was, had horrible character development a villain who is played up as tragic but is actually goofy, and over all bad everything. I was not a fan of Green Lantern because the story was jumbled not well paced and over all boring while on earth. I hated Spider-Man 3 because they retconned a major plot point for no reason and destroyed what couldve been a great venom.



However, I have an undying love for the Avengers. It is one of the best comic book movies of All time. It is TIED in my opinion with The Dark Knight. Why? Because the two movies are completely different one is a psychological thriller, the other is the most fun i have ever had at the movie theater. Sometimes I don't want a Philosophical psychological in depth movie, sometimes i want a fun action flick with heart. No, i do not like transformers and i think Battleship looks like shit. Why? Because Transformers was just like a teenager jizzed on the screen and thats all it was giant robots that were indistinguishable from each other, A dumb female lead only there to give teens a boner, and be a lame love interest and lots of explosions. Also poorly written dialogue, no character depth, but I mean hey, they had intriguing plots! And thats what everyone wants right? And Battleship just looks like a transformers knock off.



I have seen Avengers 3 times now. 3 and I plan on watching it more, and each time i watch it it gets better and better because you notice little things you didn't the first go around, it is sooooo subtle. It has rewatch value. Now as for depth, Nolanites and pretentious people complain that this film has no depth. Before you accuse me of being a Marvelite or an idiot, i would like to remind you that I love a lot of DC comic books, i read them more than Marvel comic books, I also Love the Nolan Batman Series. Now like i was saying, Avengers has some very deep things that you won't catch if you just toss it out as a dumb action film just because it isnt afraid to use CGI and Explosions like some films...



The films main Theme is Power. not only the Power that Loki has or the Power that the heroes have, but also the power Fury and the World Council have. How much power is too much? As in, Fury has the power to look into everyones cell phones, that invasion of privacy, but you will notice there is no moral conflict when he does this because you do not cross Fury, it is standard. The World Council has the power to blow up Manhattan, they almost do, they have been blinded by power, and think the power they have is the most important one no matter how many little people have to get hurt.



Fury also has the power to manipulate these powerful individuals with out a consequence such as Coulson's cards. Or maybe even his death could have been faked we don't know because he is such a crafty bastard. The film is a simple complexity. What do i mean by this? That means it is simple in its execution but if you read into it further you realize what is going on. It lets you decide why certain events are occurring. Why because it treats its audience like they are smarter than bricks. Hell i figured it out, then again Film Studies is my major... Buuuuuuut Unlike movies like The Dark Knight, which has the characters spout out the themes of the movie easily so that the audience feels smart and pretentious. Hell i understood it when I was in 11th grade, before i was a learned man... Not knocking the Dark Knight i am not i love it and i think it is a beautifully made film and deserved its billion dollars, but it is a movie with flaws too, not a perfect film like everyone thinks. The Avengers i will also admit has flaws but so does every movie. Star Wars was not a deep film, but it was good. Raiders of the lost Ark, whats the deeper meaning of that? Nazi's are bad? No Shit! There are a bunch of films that are not deep and complex that i am sure people who are Bashing avengers even like.



Side note, I am sorry for the terrible grammar. I am typing really fast, and well i just don't have time to proof read at the moment please forgive me for being a bad English Major. Lol.

Benicio del Toro Is Open To Reclaiming His Role As The Collector Of The Marvel Cinematic Universe
Related:

Benicio del Toro Is Open To Reclaiming His Role As The Collector Of The Marvel Cinematic Universe
BLACK WIDOW Star Scarlett Johansson Explains Why Shooting 2012's THE AVENGERS Felt Like A Big Mess
Recommended For You:

BLACK WIDOW Star Scarlett Johansson Explains Why Shooting 2012's THE AVENGERS Felt Like "A Big Mess"

DISCLAIMER: As a user generated site and platform, ComicBookMovie.com is protected under the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and "Safe Harbor" provisions.

This post was submitted by a user who has agreed to our Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. ComicBookMovie.com will disable users who knowingly commit plagiarism, piracy, trademark or copyright infringement. Please CONTACT US for expeditious removal of copyrighted/trademarked content. CLICK HERE to learn more about our copyright and trademark policies.

Note that ComicBookMovie.com, and/or the user who contributed this post, may earn commissions or revenue through clicks or purchases made through any third-party links contained within the content above.

Do you have what it takes to write for us?
Want to contribute?
1 2
sonofsamadams
sonofsamadams - 5/14/2012, 7:10 PM
Was it deep enough as far as storytelling goes? Not even close. It was quite straight forward with the story.
As far as Character development goes, it was very deep in that way. (excluding Thor, whom kinda felt like an extended cameo because the more you think about it, he just shows up on the scene with no back-story like the other Avengers had, and he had less importance than I ever thought he would. The filmmakers felt like HE HAD to be in the movie)

TDKR will be deep in both aspects. The Avengers is a great near perfect Comic Book Movie.
The Dark Knight Rises will be a great Comic Book Adaptation. THERES A DIFFERENCE.
Howlett
Howlett - 5/14/2012, 7:19 PM
We all love the Avengers but it's a little bit of letdown story-wise. I thought X-Men: First Class and Batman Begins is way better. I love the Avengers film because it's pure CBM and nothing more.
Thanos005
Thanos005 - 5/14/2012, 7:22 PM
Deep would not have worked with this movie though. There was so much going on as it is. Lots of characters, interaction and bouncing, and it was all really well done, but adding more layers would only have confused people. This movie is fine as it is. More layers would only make it feel like a mess. And no, the Dark Knight was not deep either. It is just as simple as Avengers. Batman fights crime, fights the Joker, Allies with Harvey Dent and Gordon, and the fights Harvey. In fact, I could argue that Avengers was deeper because of how Loki manipulated everyone in the Helicarrier. And it was never painted clearly, it required SOME thought. I honestly think Nolanites are just looking for something to grab onto, so they can defend their stick in the dirt.
Ghostt
Ghostt - 5/14/2012, 7:24 PM
well written article. There were things that annoyed me about Avengers, but like you said, it's about the most fun you can have in a theater.

Looking forward to watching this again, because Whedon does put a lot of subtle things in movies that you see when you watch again, as in Serenity.
BooYah
BooYah - 5/14/2012, 7:48 PM
Avengers is my favorite Marvel movie by far. There haven't been many movies that when you walk out you don't know who your favorite character is. They're all likeable thanks to Whedons writing.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/14/2012, 8:06 PM
Ehhh, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think power was the theme.

Honestly, I think it was about teamwork, and setting aside personal differences to achieve a goal greater than the individual.

The thing is, the Avengers story was perfect for the movie. I have no problems with it. Is it cliche? Hell yes! But take any creative writing class and they will tell you, every story has already been written. It's how you tell it that counts. And the Avengers told their story in a very fun, and unique manner.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/14/2012, 8:13 PM
Thanos you do need to watch the Dark Knight again, and look past the explosions and the joker. Batman just doesn't just fight crime in The Dark Knight. The Joker manipulated Harvey Dent to prove his point to Batman. The Joker never wanted control of Gotham, he just wanted to prove his selfish point that everyone can go insane. There are a lot of layers to The Dark Knight, but that's because the character calls for a rather complex narrative. It's not grasping at straws.

Harvey Dent and the Joker represent what Batman could be. He is stuck in the middle of the two, and he thinks that there are fine lines that divide them, and he learns there are not. The whole film you are led to believe that the Joker wants control of Gotham, and to kill Batman. It is not until the end that you realize what his true motives were the entire film. The Joker wins, because not only did he corrupt Harvy Dent, but he proved to Batman that indeed he would break his one rule if the situation was dire enough. The film touches upon themes like The Patriot Act and the war on terror.

Again, it's apples and oranges with The Avengers, but like you said The Avengers plot wasn't that deep, nor should it have been. Batman has always been a more cerebral character, and his narratives should reflect that.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/14/2012, 8:15 PM
In The Avengers, you knew what was going on the whole time. You saw Loki scheming, you knew an army was coming, and you knew who Loki had under his mind control, all you had to do was wait for the shit to hit the fan. The Dark Knight you were distracted by everything, only to realize in the end what you were watching wasn't as important as what you weren't watching.
Thanos005
Thanos005 - 5/14/2012, 8:42 PM
You make a point, but it pisses me off how everyone wants every comic book movie to be the Dark Knight, I liked the Dark Knight, I thought it was great, it isn't my favorite CBM, but I cannot dispute that it is a great movie, but just because it worked for Batman does NOT mean it works for every other superhero out there. And it isnt the fanboys, they're easy to ignore, but even the studios themselves are all going for "Dark and gritty" now because it helped Batman, but it helps Batman because it compliments him. Dark and Gritty works sometimes, but by no means should ever movie be "dark anf Gritty" or complex. Simplicity works. Cliches (sometimes) work. Dark and complex does not automatically translate to good, same way light and simple does not translate to bad.

Okay. Rant over.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/14/2012, 9:06 PM
I agree with your sentiments. What works for Batman, doesn't work for The Avengers, and you can't go forcing round pegs into square holes. I think Spider-man will be great, but if it is as "dark and gritty" as Batman it will fall flat on its face. Also, if Batman was as jovial as The Avengers it too would fall flat on its face.

I think you and I have the same beliefs when it comes to films. They all should be unique and tailored to the characters they are bringing to life. They shouldn't be this cookie cutter image in the shape of whatever popular comic book movie that has just been released.
Minotauro
Minotauro - 5/14/2012, 9:13 PM
Thanos005 is what CBM does not need.
Thanos005
Thanos005 - 5/14/2012, 9:40 PM
Exactly my point. Nothing else to add, you summed it up well. Movies should stand on their own merits instead of being knock-offs of other popular successful movies.
Kalel219
Kalel219 - 5/14/2012, 10:42 PM
I blame the fans/studios for thinking everything needs to be "Dark and gritty".

Honestly, why can TDK get sooo much praise for "deep story and characters" while The Avengers can get called a disappointment because it lacks both.

Marvel has 5 films leading up to The Avengers, take them into account and the whole saga is much depper then Nolan's Batman films which I love.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/15/2012, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't call Marvel's five films deeper than Batman Begins or The Dark Knight. Truth be told they were very basic plots who's only job was to introduce us to the characters on a superficial level. Iron Man, Thor and Hulk were basically about redemption. Captain America was about overcoming the odds and realizing it's not how strong you are, but how much courage you have to stand up for what is wrong. Most of their plots were serviceable, but none of them are on the level of Batman Begins when it comes to depth, layers and examining the psychology of the character. Now that's not to say they are all bad films, but in depth character studies they are not.

The entire purpose of those films was to set up another, larger film.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/15/2012, 12:26 AM
I feel The Avengers took the same formula, (re)introduce characters, give them obstacles to overcome, have them fail at first, then have them realize the only way to overcome them is by succumbing to the overall message of the film (teamwork). However, The Avengers made it a blast to watch, and I think that is in part to not having a larger movie hover over it like the Avengers did with the solo flicks.
Kalel219
Kalel219 - 5/15/2012, 1:24 AM
@RidiculousFanBoyDemands

Of course YOU wouldn't call them that, but I would. I don't really see Batman Begins as a great in depth character study but that's just me
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/15/2012, 1:45 AM
If anything I would call Batman Begins the deeper narrative of the two. I thought it did a brilliant job interweaving six different Bruce Wayne stories into a non linear narrative. Giving the film great depth in it's character study of the man behind the mask.

You had Bruce Wayne the child, Bruce Wayne the troubled, bitter college student, Bruce Wayne the the thief. Then it went from Bruce Wayne Ras's protige, Bruce Wayne that Alfred knows, Bruce Wayne that the public knows and finally Batman. Not to mention it explored six different personal relationships (his father, Alfred, Rachel, Ras, Gordon, and Lucius) that shaped him, and eventually led him to becoming Batman.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/15/2012, 1:55 AM
What I liked about Begins is it didn't gloss over anything about his past. It took the time to develop who he was as a character, and really explored the relationships with those close to him.

In Captain America, you didn't know much about Steve save for he was a sickly kid with a big heart, wanted to fight in the war, and had a friend named Bucky. With Thor, we are given one scene arguing with his father about how he should rule (basically telling the audience he is cocky and arrogant), then showing him attacking the frost giants before being sent to earth. Then on earth he meets Natalie Portman, and had probably the quickest epiphany you will see on screen. Iron Man was a bit different, and did the best job of really fleshing out the character. The relationship between Tony Stark and the other guy who was captive with him I thought was very well executed. The Hulk, well, there wasn't much character study there. Just a guy looking for a cure, who is on the run from the government. Then again, Ang Lee's Hulk was basically a 2 plus hour character study on the man and the creature.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 5/15/2012, 1:58 AM
The Avengers I thought took the brilliant route, and didn't really explore the characters as individuals but as a whole. No character had a major arc to them, but the group did. I'm glad they didn't shoehorn in any unnecessary plot elements and just kept it as simple as possible. They just let the viewer enjoy seeing all these characters on screen for the first time, without bogging them down with needless exposition and plot filler.
Kalel219
Kalel219 - 5/15/2012, 2:20 AM
"In Captain America, you didn't know much about Steve save for he was a sickly kid with a big heart, wanted to fight in the war, and had a friend named Bucky."

What more do you need to know?

"probably the quickest epiphany you will see on screen"

Maybe if you think about it abit more then you currently are, it makes sense.

"The Hulk, well, there wasn't much character study there. Just a guy looking for a cure, who is on the run from the government"

Also that Bruce suffers PTSD from Hulk episodes.

" No character had a major arc to them"
But they still had arcs.

I'm sorry but not every movie needs to be a begins level of character study.
bladenite78
bladenite78 - 5/15/2012, 2:47 AM
Truth be told, The Dark Knight was a very simple plot. Crazy man wants to teach Batman that anyone can go Crazy...wow...so original. I didn't get the whole cerebral prestige that you did from that movie. Never felt immersed into it, just couldnt relate to Batman..he seemed too stupid, not far enough ahead like Batman should be to me.
Kalel219
Kalel219 - 5/15/2012, 2:56 AM
For me the biggest problem with TDK was I just didn't believe in Bruce's conviction as much as I did in Begins.
gmoney0505
gmoney0505 - 5/15/2012, 7:59 AM
I am more pissed at the movie having villains being punching bags instead of being real threat to the heroes.
The movie does not need a Dark Knight plot but it needs a better plot than it have cause the cartoon series have a way better plot in most of it episodes in 30 minutes than and 2 hour movie. If plot was better, the action and tension would have been better for me because of the build-up to it.
gmoney0505
gmoney0505 - 5/15/2012, 8:05 AM
@SuperBat77
Those things were intriguing as I notice them the first time i watched them. But none of them are expanded on except for the one time you see them. If those things were expanded on and put into the major plot of the story, then it would have been so much better. But instead they were just watered down to one scene.
megabatfan
megabatfan - 5/15/2012, 8:21 AM
I fully agree with sonofsamadams... And it is for this reason I believe TDKR will trump The Avengers in every way. Even at the box office... But I gotta admit, even though I get what Nolan has done with the character, I long for a Batman flick that is jus as fun & enjoyable to watch as say Iron Man was. which to me is Marvel's 2nd best, after the Avengers
AC1
AC1 - 5/15/2012, 8:54 AM
I completely agree with you on this article, except the stuff saying The Dark Knight was obvious and that it threw themes at you. The Dark Knight was a more complex film than The Avengers, but does that make it better? Hell no. It just makes it different.

Avengers has a simple story but it's fun, it has meaning, it has heart. It's thrilling and exciting in all the right places, and it near flawlessly transitions from side-splitting humour to tragedy and back.

Honestly, I'm expecting the Dark Knight Rises to be the better movie of the two (from a artsy film point of view at least). But Avengers is and always will be the better comic book movie, because The Dark Knight is so vastly different from the comics in almost every way.

Look at the simplicity of the Avengers this way: when you first watched Star Wars, or Back To The Future, or Raiders of the Lost Arc, or even Superman (Richard Donner), Batman (Tim Burton), or Spider-Man (Sam Raimi)... did you watch those films and think "these aren't complex enough, therefore they're all terrible films"? I bet you didn't. I bet you at least enjoyed one of them, and still do to this day. They're classics. And so is the Avengers, the only difference is that Avengers will probably age a lot better than some of these did.

How would you compare Star Wars to one of the deeper films of the time? How would you compare Star Wars to the Godfather? The Godfather may technically be the better film, but Star Wars has that extra something that just keeps you coming back. Same thing in this case, really.

The way I see it, Avengers is the Star Wars of my generation. It's not the best film, but it's among the most special.
batfan175
batfan175 - 5/15/2012, 10:40 AM
Yeah it's just a film about superheroes getting together to fight a common enemy and they make war sound like the best ad funniest thing ever...which makes me vomit. the only difference between this and the X-Men is that the heroes getting together had each their own movie, leading up to this one. It's a good film but not intellectually or philosophically ambitious. The only 3-dimensional characters are Bruce banner and Black Widow (slightly) and Ruffalo does a terrific job at playing Hulk but it's an alien invasion movie that has superheroes in it.
sikwon
sikwon - 5/15/2012, 11:01 AM
there is a simple reason why nolans batman is deeper then the avengers.. he is a deeper character with deeper motivations. like spider man, punisher, daredevil, there is deep emotional scarring with batman as a character. nolan could have made a similarly THEMED movie with any of the characters that i listed. marvel didnt go that rout. these avengers arent fighting their inner demons (with the exception of black widow and her bloody ledger, great scene with her and loki then with her and hawkeye). batman and the avengers are telling very different storys, the characters are motivated differently. when you cut through all the bs, batman (who along with wolverine is my favorite comicbook character) is motivated by revenge. he is bringing justice but he is also punishing criminals. the joker themes of batman being just like him, thats not deep or a stretch, batman is a SCARY dude. seriously, there are deep, watch youre parents murdered brfore youre very eyes, issues there. it dosent take brilliant writing to bring that to light, especially with an actor the caliber of bale and a directer as amazing as nolan. the real secret to how amazing the dark knight was (and its my favorite movie next to goodfellas) is the pure evil that is the joker. what the avengers is doing is different, its story and over all movie goals are different. and there is ALOT of subtle emotion to the avengers, alot of subtle plot. i mean as much as every one says thor was short changed, 3 times in the film he tried to reason with his brother and he was dropped from 30,000ft and stabbed for his efforts. by his brother. seriously, get the bootleg and watch that movie again. banners shame at what he turns into, his guilt, is palpable. tonys jealousy at cap and the way that his father felt about cap is palpable. steve literally earned tonys respect "a living legend that kind of lives up to the legend", when an hour before tony told bruce "this is the guy my father was always talking about?". hawkey asking widow how many agents he killed, and it was established that he was an assassin ("he made a different call") and widow replying "this is loki. its monsters and magic and nothing we were ever trained for". the avengers is fantastic, and it is better the more you watch it. they went over plots and sub plots quickly but make no mistake they are there and they are handled very well.
superotherside
superotherside - 5/15/2012, 11:28 AM
Good write up. I agree with everything you said.
amazonsdoitbest
amazonsdoitbest - 5/15/2012, 1:05 PM
I agree with you 100%... most fun i have had at the movies in a long time! I am more of a DC universe gal myself but i love the avengers and Joss Whedon is a God among men!
Fonzieismypal
Fonzieismypal - 5/15/2012, 4:23 PM
I've seen the movie 10 times, and anyone who thinks this movie isn't deep is too dependent on gritty, realistic movies that throw themes at you. The theme of The Avengers is freedom. It's not shoved up your asshole the whole time, but if you LISTEN to the dialogue and take these characters for what they are, you can see it. All of these characters find freedom through the Avengers initiative. SHIELD abuses their power and manipulates the freedom of others. Loki doesn't think that humans are free and believes them to just be slaves of each other. Just because the movie didn't make you feel educated doesn't mean it wasn't deep. I've seen TDK enough times to feel confidently that The Avengers dealt with just as many themes, but they did so a lot more subtly than Nolan did. A lot, lot, lot more classy. Left so much room for additional viewings, and I pick up on new developments every time that all lead back to the same culminating theme. Watch the movie again.
BigHec
BigHec - 5/15/2012, 6:59 PM
How can people say XMEN first class had a great story...
" Your Professor X and you should be Magneto.." corny
Mystique and Prof X adopted brothers/sisters-Stupid
Banshee and McTaggert not having any connection
The [frick]ed up Timeline of the Xmen movies in general

Movie was good but not Batman Begins or Dark Knight or Avengers...
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 5/15/2012, 7:36 PM
I don't get myself worked up over which one is better than the other. Sometimes I feel like First Class, sometimes I feel like Superman. It's all relative.

Don't worry about the people who didn't like Avengers. If a studio with the resources Marvel and Disney have can't please them, then you sure as hell won't by trying to talk some sense into them. Don't let them ruin your good time.

That said, I liked Ghostbusters better.
1 2
Related Headlines
Latest Headlines

Hot Headlines Hot Headlines

Sci-Fi & Fantasy

Anime & Manga

Gaming

Horror

Cartoons & Animated Features

Action Movies & TV

Pro Wrestling & MMA News
View Recorder