EDITORIAL: Let's Discuss 'The Joker' And Other BATMAN V SUPERMAN: DOJ Theories

EDITORIAL: Let's Discuss 'The Joker' And Other BATMAN V SUPERMAN: DOJ Theories

The highly anticipated trailers for Suicide Squad & Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice hit over the weekend, and with them, came a ton of new theories, some good, some bad, but one thing they all seemed to have in common was the infamous Clown Prince of Crime!

Editorial Opinion
By Khanlark - Jul 14, 2015 07:07 PM EST
Filed Under: Batman
Unless you live under a rock, there's almost no way you missed Warner Brothers and DC Comics releasing the first official trailers for Suicide Squad & Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice. The two movies are set to capture angles of the DC world we have yet to see on the big screen, with the latter featuring two of DC’s most iconic characters facing off in an epic bout. But, of course, as we are all sweaty nerds, we already knew that.

In the trailer for Dawn of Justice, at around the two minute mark (click here to check it out), we see a vandalised Robin costume. Many believe this to simply be an easter egg placed there by director Zack Snyder, however, I think it is a lot more. There are two very unique and interesting theories floating around the internet, one of my own, and the other was brought to my attention on the ol’ Twitter. Both theories discuss Jared Leto’s portrayal of The Joker, and some very bizarre and horrifying events that may, or may not, have occurred. In this article, I will discuss the duo, and I will compare the flaws, and likelihood of the respective theories.


Numero Uno: Jason Todd Is Jared Leto’s Joker


Ever since Gigli's Ben Affleck was announced as an “older,” more "angry" Bruce Wayne/Batman, fans have been hoping, that Jason Todd would appear in the not-so-distant future. To be completely honest with you, why shouldn't he? Todd is one of the coolest characters in the Batman mythology, and has yet to make his first big-screen appearence. Anyway, there was a rumour (sorry for my Australian spelling, you American yanks) posted on Twitter last night that really captured my attention. I do not remember who wrote it first, nor who sent it to me, so I will just discuss the theory like it is my own... Like all great theorists do.

In the trailer for Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, we see a Robin costume vandalised, with the words “HAHAHA, joke’s on you Batman.” Now, at a first glance, you could probably argue that this quote should be used in my second theory, but I do what I want. Bruce says an interesting line over the top of this shot, and this is what we should be listening to. Wayne states, “Twenty years in Gotham… How many good-guys are left? How many stayed that way?” Now, to me at least, that sounds a lot like he is referencing someone from his past. Snyder so brilliantly placed the Robin shot right in the midst of that epic line, in fact, he used it right after Bruce says “Gotham.”  



Now, I understand. You probably think I am insane for suggesting this, but it does make a hell of a lot of sense. If you look at some tattoos on The Joker’s body, you would be surprised by the references to Robin. For example, on Joker’s right bicep, we see a wing. Many believe the wing is actually that of a robin, and could be a straight-up allusion to his past as the boy-wonder. Interestingly, there is a tattoo of a “J” on his face. This would not have been brought to my attention, unless I had recently played Batman: Arkham Knight. Spoilers ahead, by the way. In Arkham Knight, it is revealed that the titular villain, is actually Jason Todd. The character was tortured by The Joker, and trained to kill Batman. The Joker, so deviously, burnt a “J” on Todd’s face, and left a sort of branding, an allusion to the slave-trade, and the ownership of individuals. Interestingly, Robin has become The Joker before. If many of you will remember the animated movie, Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker, you would know that the character of Tim Drake, the third Robin, eventually becomes The Joker. While, yes, Jason Todd is not Tim Drake, the filmmakers, if they were to actually go this route, are in fact looking at some pretty iconic and very well-received source material to influence their pretty radical ideas.

Now, like any theory, there are a few flaws. For starters, look at Jared Leto’s age. The dude is forty-three years old. That is one year older than Ben Affleck, you know, the dude playing the dude, disguised as another dude. However, Leto does look like he could pass for thirty or even younger, the dude has one of those faces that never ages… I really should get on his skin-program. The only other flaw of this theory, would be the sole idea that it would be kind of a waste. Fans everywhere have been demanding a big-screen portrayal of Red Hood, Jason Todd’s anti-hero persona, so to see him become The Joker would be a huge disappointment, while at the same time, being a pretty sick  (in both senses of the word) twist. According to a rumour from El Mayimbe, the character of Red Hood is a "huge priority" for Warner Brothers and DC Comics. Spin-offs galore!


Numero Dos: The Joker Murdered Jason Todd In Wayne Manor

 
If that first theory was a bit too crazy for you, the second theory I will discuss is a lot more believable. This idea is my own. I came up with it minutes after the trailer for Dawn of Justice first hit the inter webs. Ever since Jason Todd was killed by The Joker in 1989, fans have been demanding to see the iconic scene portrayed on the big screen. We have certainly been close, thanks to the very awesome, and criminally underrated animated flick, Batman: Under The Red Hood. However, an animated film would pale in comparison to seeing a live-action version on the big screen with acting powerhouses like Ben Affleck and Jared Leto.

During the trailer, we see a shot of, what I originally assumed, was an abandoned warehouse. However, after sussing out the trailer too many times, I have determined that the roofless complex is actually Wayne Manor, or at least, was Wayne Manor. Now, a lot of people have been direct messaging me on Twitter, asking “Why would Bruce live there?” or “Why wouldn’t he fix it up?” And the answer is rather simple. Wayne does not live there anymore, I assume Bruce has a pretty sick penthouse in the city, with a brand new Batcave, like we see in the trailer, Robin suit and all.



If you skip to fifty-two seconds into the trailer, we see the destroyed Wayne Manor. The place looks like a bomb went off inside (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). The roof is gone, the windows are smashed, and it totally looks abandoned. Now, in the comic books, The Joker takes Jason Todd to a warehouse, beats him, and then blows the place up. What if, and hear me out here, what if The Joker knew Bruce Wayne was Batman? What if Jason Todd is killed in his own home, in Bruce’s own home? We will see the iconic sequence of Jason Todd dying, and being held in Batman’s trembling arms. It will just take place at a different, albeit, better, location. I think there is something so Shakespearean about Jason being killed in Wayne’s name, in his own home, in Jason’s home.

A lot of people are wondering why Alfred is walking to the old Wayne Manor in the trailer, and the answer is rather simple. To Alfred, Jason was a son, while Bruce is more like a brother, as their age is closer to that of brothers rather than father and son. Like Bruce goes to Crime Alley, Alfred goes to the old Manor, to pay his respects for his deceased son, Jason. I think there is something so beautiful, and dramatic about this character, and it would add a whole new dimension to Alfred, who has always been seen as a British butler with bite. Alfred could still be furious at Bruce, which creates a rather sickening relationship between the duo, something we have yet to see in the comics, or on the big screen.

Finally, during the trailer, we see Bruce Wayne open up a newspaper which has the words, “You let your family die” written on it. This part of the theory is a bit of a stretch, but allow me to discuss it anyway. Could this be The Joker sending Bruce the iconic message? Could The Joker have contacted Bruce, telling him that he is at the Manor, and that he has Jason? The “family” part of the message is rather important, to me at least. While it could just be someone saying Bruce’s workers were killed in the destruction of his tower, I think it is Mr. J sending The Dark Knight a very alarming message, which sends him on-route to Wayne Manor, where we see the iconic sequence as portrayed in A Death In The Family.





So that wraps up this article. Now, most likely, I am wrong about these two theories, and am being a classic fan and looking way too deep into something like a trailer. However, with the evidence I have provided, and the pieces of information as provided by Snyder and co. I think there is some validity to these theories, especially the last one. So, what do you guys think? If you like these ideas, comment below and let me know! If you think this article is main-page worthy, chuck me a like down below, and share it on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, etc.

Final question, before I go; Who do you guys think would be a wicked Jason Todd/Red Hood? Personally, I think either The Amazing Spider-Man’s Andrew Garfield or Fury’s Shia LaBeouf would be great picks for the role, and are perfectly aged to play the former Robin. So comment below, I would love to hear your thoughts!

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Mrcool210
Mrcool210 - 7/14/2015, 8:34 PM
I'm betting its theory number 2 what they are actually going for. If Joker is jason todd in this dc universe i will just give up. That is one of the most moronic things i've heard, no offense, its just such a waste of both characters IMO
kong
kong - 7/14/2015, 8:41 PM
In the Entertainment Weekly Comic-Con Special (which is sitting next to me) they visit the Wayne Manor where Alfred and Bruce are talking by the fireplace, so taking down some of your 2nd theory. While he could still be killed at Wayne Manor, Bruce & Alfred spend time there at least when they're in the Batcave (which IS at the manor).

And the first is just so out there, I really can't believe in that being the case. And if he IS Joker, does that meant he burned his own suit, vandalized it, and then left it for Batman? If so is he the first Joker, or did he take over the mantle like Tim Drake in Batman Beyond?

There's not much to disprove it, but even less to prove it.

The robin tattoo is probably a reference to him KILLING Jason, not being Jason.

The whole 20 years thing could be a reference to Jason becoming Red Hood, or even Two Face. Jason Todd becoming the Joker........nah.

This is less of a theory and more like "Y'know something that will get a ton of people talking in the comments because of how weird it is?", but it still was a good article and an interesting read.

Overall nice job, I just don't agree about most of it.
MisterSuperior
MisterSuperior - 7/14/2015, 8:44 PM
Jason Todd being the Joker would be......I don't know. I'm in on the theory that Batman and Joker have this almost immortal like dynamic/relationship between them, so I don't know how I'd feel about someone taking the "mantle" of The Joker and continuing with it. I mean, there would still be a 'J' in the name, lol. I don't know if I really want to think too much of that because I just don't know how I feel about that.

But the second one...I could see Joker having burnt down Wayne Manor, but I don't think that's the case. Still, it would be cool and I wonder what Joker could ever do in these films with the knowledge of Bruce Wayne being Batman.
DetectiveCinema
DetectiveCinema - 7/14/2015, 8:47 PM
Good write up my friend. I can see the validity in both your theories however as you said the thought of Leto's Joker's actually being the former Robin is somewhat twisted. If they took inspiration from the animated Red Hood movie decent reasoning for this dramatic could be pinned on the lazathuras pit.

Your second theory doesn't seem too far fetched, yet the thought of The Joker knowing Batman's identity I'm not a fan of. I feel it would just change the dynamic of their relationship too much.

With the "You let your family die" note, I think it could be a fun twist if it's revealed that Jason Todd is the one who sends it to him.
DetectiveCinema
DetectiveCinema - 7/14/2015, 8:53 PM
As for who should play Jason Todd? Emory Cohen. Check out his performance in The Place Beyond the Pines. Not a whole lot screams the character of Jason Todd / Red Hood but you can tell this guy is a [frick]ing talented actor, I think he would knock it out of the park.

Side note though: Ezra Miller would've been nice to see in the role. I can imagine him more as Jason Todd than as Barry Allen.
TheRockmore
TheRockmore - 7/14/2015, 10:34 PM
@ Khanlark

While I love this piece I would ask you to add a section, if you would, about Dick Grayson being the Joker as well (as long as thats a theory)

Now a few months ago we were treated to that strange set photo of Dick Grayson's grave at Wayne Manor, and seeing as the TV/Movie universe don't like to cross swords, and Grayson is set to appear on Titans/Blackbirds I immediately thought that was it...but then the trailer came out and everyone began to hop on the "that's Jason Todd's suit" bandwagon...whcih was never actually stated...in my opinion if anyone IS the Joker in this movie that is HEAVILY inspired by the Frank Miller run, it's Dick...because in the Frank Miller run - The Dark Knight Strikes Again- he DOES become the second Joker.


The Dark Knight Strikes Again
Years afterwards, Dick was known to have been fired by Batman in disgrace for gross incompetence. He went through an experimental procedure that made him nigh immortal through cellular regeneration, and he was actually driven insane. He became the second Joker after the original one, and murdered several retired superheroes, including the Creeper and the Guardian. After attempting to kill Catgirl, Batman finally killed him by throwing him into lava and extinguishing all of his cells simultaneously.

I wouldn't be surprised if whatever Robin shows up first Dick/Jason...if they incorporate HUGE traits from the other if it's Jason, he'll have a bunch of Dick's traits and vice versa
Khanlark
Khanlark - 7/14/2015, 10:59 PM
@Mrcool210
Thanks for the feedback, I personally don't want Jason to be The Joker, but I can totally see it happening.

@Kong
So do they refer to it as Wayne Manor or Bruce's house? I can see them lying until the movie comes out, if Joker really does kill Jason at the Manor.

@MisterSuperior
I think Joker knowing who Batman is would be really great. It would totally add something to their relationship, and would make him an even greater threat.

@MrMurdock
To be honest, I can totally see what you mean about Jason sending the "you let your family die." I only think it's Joker because of how similar the handwriting is, which could tie into my theory of Jason being Joker. I personally don't want him to be Joker, as I think Red Hood, Joker and Batman would make for a great movie.

As for your Jason Todd pick, I haven't seen the dude act. I was pushing for Jamie Bell before he was cast as The Thing, but I think Shia LaBeouf or Andrew Garfield would nail Jason's attitude, as well as his wit and banter.

Thanks!

@XxLIONHEARTxX
Cheers, bud.

@Arrowverse
I saw an interesting shot in the trailer that debunks the whole "Dick Grayson is dead" theory. When we see Bruce's parents' coffins, we see the same tombstone that people said was Dick Grayson's. So part of me thinks the Waynes knew the Graysons before they died, and the tombstone was maybe for Dick's Dad. Anyway, cheers for the comment.
Mrcool210
Mrcool210 - 7/14/2015, 11:54 PM
@Khanlark
I think Andrew Garfield would be a better nightwing too be honest and Shia La bouf is too old in my opinion. I've thought for a while now that Taron Egerton from Kingsman would make a damn good Jason Todd, if he could pull off an american accent. Which i bet he can. He certainly has the right look for Jason in my opinion.







Khanlark
Khanlark - 7/15/2015, 12:07 AM
@Mrcool210
I like Taron, but he needs to prove more to me, bare in mind I have yet to see Testament Of Youth, so he may be incredible in that. Shia's only 29, which is fine for Jason. He has always struck me as an older Robin, anyway. I think Garfield would be an amazing Jason, especially after seeing Boy A and his performance in this deleted scene from TASM 2, he really captures Jason's loneliness.



Mrcool210
Mrcool210 - 7/15/2015, 12:14 AM
@Khanlark Shit Shia is 29? Seriously? I thought he was in his mid 30s with that damn beard lol. I guess i could see your point with Garfield, but i guess i feel his could have a lot of the dramatic moments and be able to pull off the comedic nature of nightwing/dick grayson as well. I guess we can at least both agree that he needs to be a robin in the DCEU. High Five for that

Khanlark
Khanlark - 7/15/2015, 12:28 AM
@Mrcool210
gamecreatorjj
gamecreatorjj - 7/15/2015, 12:36 AM
I'd like to just say, Jason is closer to a son to Bruce. Before Damian, Jason was the closest thing he had to a son. He was the first Robin who Bruce legally adopted. I'm pretty sure Jason was technically Jason Todd Wayne for a while. This is one of the many reasons his death was so distressing to Bruce.
Khanlark
Khanlark - 7/15/2015, 12:48 AM
@gamecreatorjj
In the books, yeah. But, these aren't the books.
TheRockmore
TheRockmore - 7/15/2015, 1:22 AM
1) ew at these casting...very ew at all of them

2) i noticed the grayson shot to, i actually highlighted it in a piece before...but the dates still dont match up...and it wouldnt be the first time filmakers just didnt mind an extra tombstone...watch i guarantee it wont be noticeable in close ups of the tomb
TheEpicJuicebox
TheEpicJuicebox - 7/15/2015, 2:50 AM
@Arrowverse at least the casting is for someone who exists with the justice league
SimplyAz
SimplyAz - 7/15/2015, 3:23 AM
Interesting article, the first one is defeinately out side of the box.
Second one would be cool.
kong
kong - 7/15/2015, 5:32 AM
Straight up Wayne Manor:

"Back on the set, the weather is still unpleasant, but now it might be a little too miserable. Snyder gazes out through the windowless embrasures of Wayne Manor at the field behind it and sighs. "Everyone's going to think that's digital," he says. "We built this set in the middle of nowhere and it looks like the fakest [frick]ing thing I've ever seen." He cuckles. "Nobody's going to believe it's real. It's too real"

But towards the beginning the author of the article, while referring to how downtrodden it's become, says it's what "used" to be Wayne Manor. So maybe you're right. Who knows.

Khanlark
Khanlark - 7/15/2015, 5:58 AM
@SimplyAz
Thanks, dude!

@Niklander
The note's really interesting. To me, it looks exactly like The Joker's handwriting on the Robin suit, so that's how I put the two together.

Cheers!
LEVITIKUZ
LEVITIKUZ - 7/15/2015, 6:23 AM
Numero Uno: Jason Todd Is Jared Leto’s Joker



This is you right now @Khanlark

Ultimates
Ultimates - 7/15/2015, 8:17 AM
Andrew Garfield? Hell no! Hate that guy with his stupid baby face.

But the Joker killing Jason in the Wayne Manor? AWESOME. It could be one of the most epic scenes in the history of superhero movies,
Odin
Odin - 7/15/2015, 9:47 AM
It's scary how much sense these theories make. I actually wouldn't mind if the first one turned out to be true; it would be admirably ballsy move. But I think that the second one is more likely to be true.

And yeah, Taron Egerton as Dick Grayson or Jason Todd would be really cool to see.

TheBatfanCC
TheBatfanCC - 7/15/2015, 10:57 AM

what'd you all think of this theory for BvS Please have a read I think its interesting.


POTENTIAL SPOILERS



YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED













My theory is Doomsday will kill Superman at the end of this film.




1) There are many claims from Film Scoopists that Doomsday is in fact in this film. Along with Clues in the trailer, Zod's body, The Kyrptonite, The trinity fighting something or someone in all the wreckage at the end of the trailer. Its not Superman as he would not straight up try to kill Batman

2) There were leaked photos of people laying flowers by the Superman Statue from the first teaser.

3) There is a lot of Christ imagery in Man of Steel and some imagery within the Batman V Superman trailer. This makes me think Superman's story will parallel that of Christ. I am not religious and do not have a great knowledge of the Bible but hear me out.

* Kal-El is sent by his father to be a symbol
of hope and something greater on earth

* He performs many miracles

* He saves Earth from
destruction, killing Zod he commits Sin
(Not really a parallel but important)

* Many people cast him out and reject him while others worship him and claim him their saviour

* He is betrayed (Luthor maybe Bruce ?) Which results in his death while protecting and saving everyone (possibly from Doomsday)

* He is then resurrected ( In the Justice League film or at the end of this film) As we know he has to be part of JL

What'd you all think?
blacknumber13
blacknumber13 - 7/15/2015, 12:42 PM
I think Uproxx was the first place to post the "Robin became Joker" Theory
http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/07/batman-v-superman-joker-theory/

I really like this idea for 3 reasons:
1: It take away all of the comparisons to Heath Ledger's brilliant portrayal of the last Joker. That would be a completely different character, and would allow Leto to make this Joker his own.
2: That would make this Joker a formidable enemy indeed. Not only was Joker trained to fight by Batman but he also knows everything about Batman.
3: It makes sense why Bruce quit being the Batman. If a hero dies in the line of duty, it is sad but a somewhat expected outcome. You are fighting evil. BUT if a hero becomes the evil and Batman cant bring himself to end that evil (or maybe even stop becuase of what he can tell about Bruce Wayne) that IS SAD indeed. That would be a reason to stop being the Bat
VictorHugo
VictorHugo - 7/15/2015, 1:01 PM
"Gigli's Ben Affleck " haha that made me laugh :)
Ryguy88
Ryguy88 - 7/15/2015, 2:19 PM
“Twenty years in Gotham… How many good-guys are left? How many stayed that way?”

Could be referencing Redhood just as easily.
OuzoPowerMan
OuzoPowerMan - 7/15/2015, 4:16 PM
JARED LETO IS OLDER THAN BEN AFFLECK??!!
maxx
maxx - 7/15/2015, 5:04 PM
@ Khanlark

while i don't agree with these theories or believe they will play out this way at all, i appreciate "being a classic fan and looking way too deep into something like a trailer." I get it, it's fun and it keeps us occupied and excited about what's to come.

However, when you say "To Alfred, Jason was a son, while Bruce is more like a brother..." dude I have to respectfully and vehemently disagree with these words even being written. I have fun reading the 'out-there' theories, but this defies the fundamental makeup of the characters and the Batman story as a whole. I'm open to the fact that some stuff ends up changing from book to screen, they're vastly different mediums so change is inevitable. But what you're suggesting is a complete departure from the most important relationship in The Batman story. Never under any circumstances has Alfred not looked upon Bruce as his own son. Even if they've been at odds, we know in the end that the Parent/Child bond between them will triumph. That's the fabric of the characters yer messing with, and if you tweak those strings, you unravel structure and basic storytelling elements that are vital to this story.

If it were an 'Elseworlds', then sure why not: Kingdom Come was literary beauty, and Kal-El landed in friggin Russia. But in Batman cannon, Bruce and Alfred have always and will always maintain a Father-Son relationship - I don't think WB/DC are trying to [frick] with that in any way at all.

Cheers on the article, keep em coming!
BestAtWhatIDo
BestAtWhatIDo - 7/15/2015, 6:19 PM
I agree with the Superman death theory above. Those set photos also showed the statue of Superman in Metropolis' "ground zero" shattered. I watched the trailer for the billionth time and noticed a shot of the Batwing flying over a strip of land covered with craters and fire. This is, I believe, the land between Gotham and Metropolis, and Bruce is pursuing Doomsday - there was a rumor a bit ago that the final battle was the Trinity vs Doomsday, from Gotham to Metropolis. The battle could very well end at the foot of the statue with that climactic punch we all know so well.
Batman89mk
Batman89mk - 7/15/2015, 6:31 PM
I hoping the Robin killed is Jason. Really want to see an older Dick Grayson on screen. I did like Chris O'Donnell's version,but his older version would of worked a lot better with the older Keaton instead of the younger Kilmer. That aside, believe it was reported in early production, Adam Driver was in the running for Dick Grayson/Nightwing. Looking at that, I am sure the script was already written with Jason as the dead Robin. Seeing the over kill with sooooooo many being introduced in this movie, I am hoping Dick/Nightwing was put off for the solo Batman movie. Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing is such an important part of Batmans mythology, it would be a big dishonor if Snyder killed him off.
Lhornbk
Lhornbk - 7/16/2015, 2:17 AM
No. Just no. I definitely don't see Todd being the Joker, and I don't see him being killed in Wayne Manor either. I think @Levitikuz is right on this, you jumped the shark.

I also definitely don't think we will see the "Death of Superman" storyline, although we might see Doomsday. I just don't see them doing that before a Justice League movie, even if he does come back. I personally would hate it, and I think there would be a backlash from general audiences about killing off Superman. (Sooner or later that will happen. One of these companies is going to do something to please fanboys that general audiences won't like, and it'll cost them. Probably by killing someone off just because that's what happened in the comics.) Plus, in the Suicide Squad trailer, Waller mentions Superman being a beacon to others with special abilities. I think that's a pretty clear signal that Superman lives through this.

I do think Lex Luthor is going to use Zod's DNA to either create Doomsday, or something similar (Bizarro maybe, by getting some of Superman's DNA too.) There is clearly going to be some threat that they have to fight at the end of the movie, even if it's just Lex in that suit. I think that is the battle we see Wonder Woman in, not fighting Superman. From what Snyder has said about her, I think she'll be the one to stop the feud between Batman and Superman and get them to join forces against this other threat.
Jaffi
Jaffi - 7/16/2015, 6:29 PM
Noah, what the [frick] have you done?
ElimGarak
ElimGarak - 7/16/2015, 8:25 PM
Good stuff. I think you are right about Jason Todd dying in Wayne Manor. It makes sense why it would not be rebuilt or tore down.
RedSkullBeats
RedSkullBeats - 7/17/2015, 4:53 AM
The Red Hood : Jake Gyllenhaal

RedSkullBeats
RedSkullBeats - 7/17/2015, 4:54 AM
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