ANDOR Creator Tony Gilroy Has A Theory About The MCU's Decline: "That's Why All Those Marvel Movies Fail"

ANDOR Creator Tony Gilroy Has A Theory About The MCU's Decline: "That's Why All Those Marvel Movies Fail"

Andor showrunner Tony Gilroy has a theory relating to the decline in quality and overall audience interest in MCU movies, and it has to do with... the Tesseract?

By MarkCassidy - May 22, 2025 01:05 PM EST
Filed Under: Marvel Studios

Whether you subscribe to the notion of "superhero fatigue" or not, there's no arguing with the fact that Marvel Studios is not the cinematic juggernaut it once was. Even if you happen to disagree with the general perception that the studio's output has seen a dip in quality of late, diminishing box office returns can at least partially be attributed to a decline in audience interest.

During an interview with /Film, Filmmaker/writer Tony Gilroy reflected on Disney/Lucasfilm's original pitch for the critically-acclaimed Andor, which would have been more akin to a buddy-movie adventure with Cassian Andor (Diego Luna) and K-2S0 (Alan Tudyk).

"In the show, it's perfect. [K-2SO's late introduction was] something I always intended. The versions that they had of the show prior, they were slick and they were interesting. They were not bad, but they had a fatal flaw, it seemed to me, which is if that's your show, that we're going to storm the Citadel in the pilot, what are you going to do in episode 9? What do you do? You're just going to keep getting the disc?"

If you're wondering what this has to do with Marvel's current situation, Gilroy went on to use the MCU as an example of a franchise he feels has become too overreliant on MacGuffins.

"Trying to get the, what do they call it? I can't remember the name of the box. What the f*** is the name of the box in The Avengers? What the f*** are they going for? [...] The Tesseract! That's why all those Marvel movies are all — that's why they fail. You're just constantly ... if that's all you're doing, then all you're doing is just trying to get the Tesseract."

Though some may view this as a bit of a hot take, Marvel Studios does tend to overuse this particular storytelling device - although the same could be said for Star Wars and many other mainstream blockbusters.

Marvel does at least attempt to mix things up on occasion, however, with the recent Thunderbolts* dispensing with a number of the usual superhero tropes in favor of a more character-focused approach.

What do you make of Gilroy's comments?

In Thunderbolts*, Marvel Studios assembles an unconventional team of antiheroes — Yelena Belova, Bucky Barnes, Red Guardian, Ghost, Taskmaster and John Walker. After finding themselves ensnared in a death trap set by Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, these disillusioned castoffs must embark on a dangerous mission that will force them to confront the darkest corners of their pasts. Will this dysfunctional group tear themselves apart, or find redemption and unite as something much more before it’s too late?

Returning to their Marvel Cinematic Universe roles are Florence Pugh, Sebastian Stan, David Harbour, Wyatt Russell, Olga Kurylenko, Hannah John-Kamen and Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The cast also includes newcomers to the MCU—Lewis Pullman, Geraldine Viswanathan, Chris Bauer and Wendell Edward Pierce.

Jake Schreier directs Thunderbolts* with Kevin Feige producing. Louis D’Esposito, Brian Chapek and Jason Tamez serve as executive producers.

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Lisa89
Lisa89 - 5/22/2025, 1:17 PM
User Comment Image

FURST!
TheFinestSmack
TheFinestSmack - 5/22/2025, 1:21 PM
@Lisa89 - User Comment Image
JustAWaffle
JustAWaffle - 5/22/2025, 1:32 PM
@Lisa89 - That new guy is gonna be pissed
Lisa89
Lisa89 - 5/22/2025, 1:35 PM
@JustAWaffle - You might say I've left him floundering.
Deadinside
Deadinside - 5/22/2025, 3:22 PM
@Lisa89 -
You Otter be more careful, as this could be your D-Day...! ☮️😜
Malatrova15
Malatrova15 - 5/22/2025, 1:17 PM
mCU reigns supreme Captain Marvel AND She Hulk broke récords as much as Jonathan Majors broka Jabaris..so stop talking trash you punk...Captain CantGet a Loan broke the trumpism AND my daddy broke me until Bambi sleep please help
MCUKnight11
MCUKnight11 - 5/22/2025, 1:18 PM
User Comment Image
Plenty of movies have Macguffins.
Gmoney84
Gmoney84 - 5/22/2025, 1:18 PM
Tony clearly hasn’t seen all of the MCU films. I’d guess he’s just talking about phase 1 for the most part. The Tesseract was a critical part of those early films and for good reason.
UncleHarm1
UncleHarm1 - 5/22/2025, 3:15 PM
@Gmoney84 - It was a good trick to tie all the movies together, but it wasn't the plot of those movies. Even the first avengers was "about" the characters really. If you don't have anything interesting to say about the characters then you need something more compelling than a macguffin. I think that's what he's trying to say
OptimusCrime
OptimusCrime - 5/22/2025, 1:19 PM
Its rather simple.

We need fan favorites, Not side-characters.

Hulk
Thor
Spider-man
Daredevil
X-men
Fantastic four
Deadpool
Guardians
CreateNowSlpL8r
CreateNowSlpL8r - 5/22/2025, 1:23 PM
@OptimusCrime - You need good casting too. FF is DOA in my opinion. No one is getting behind beta Pedro Reed.
MakeAmericaGrea
MakeAmericaGrea - 5/22/2025, 1:33 PM
You're both right.
GeneralZod
GeneralZod - 5/22/2025, 1:39 PM
@CreateNowSlpL8r - And normies aren't going for Silver Surfer (she/her/hers). $500 million will be a miracle.
GeneralZod
GeneralZod - 5/22/2025, 1:43 PM
@OptimusCrime - I also think that. But then, how do we get around the fact that Guardians I was composed of 100% D-listers, complete unknowns, even to most comic book readers, and become world-wide sensations after a few weeks in theaters? Guardians worked because Gunn assembled characters with different personalities, he humanized each of them, all while developing various themes and subplots, even romance (or, at least attempted romance). New Avengers embraces some of this formula, but manages to pack in two throwaway characters that add nothing to the story (but were included for DEI purposes). The movie would have been much more nimble with Yelena, Bucky, Red Guardian and John Walker -- with Bob/Sentry off to the side. Bucky also should have been Yelena's right hand (left arm?) on this and had a much more prominent role, i think that was a real wasted opportunity where Sebastian Stan seemed to the the #3 or #4 in the film (women viewers love him -- so why did the mute his screen time?). Here's a thought: why couldn't they write in a romance between Yelena and Bucky? Show a bit of heat between them? That's how you excite the fan base + normies.

Anyway, Marvel Studios has vandalized itself so badly these last 4 years that it is proving very hard for it to recover. All eyes will be on how Superman performs versus how Fantastic Four performs.
OptimusCrime
OptimusCrime - 5/22/2025, 1:56 PM
@GeneralZod - i 100% agree.

I do believe Guardians was a hit because this movie was still surrounded with Fan favorites. We were in the middle of the Ironman and Cap movies, Hulk was still Hulk. Age of Ultron nearby with Thor still being the bad-ass.

We now are surrounded with side characters and characters people dont really care about.

Captain Marvel
Echo
"Shang Chi"
Ironheart
Captain Falcon
She Hulk
Agatha
Eternals
Shuri as Panther
Secret Invasion
Thunderbolts (if i were to look at the box office)
OptimusCrime
OptimusCrime - 5/22/2025, 1:58 PM
@CreateNowSlpL8r - i personally cant wait for Fantastic Four and i "accepted" Pedro.
Far from my first choice but he can act when he needs to.
As an hater of The Last of Us part 2, i can say that Pedro nailed the last scene as Joel.

I do believe July really wasnt the month to release this movie.
GeneralZod
GeneralZod - 5/22/2025, 2:08 PM
@OptimusCrime - Good point that I did not consider -- big IPs were built up in order to tentpole a new, totally unknown property. One could say the same about Captain Marvel I, that it was a $1 billion film because it was tentpoled between Endgame and Infinity War.
dragon316
dragon316 - 5/22/2025, 3:01 PM
@GeneralZod - normal people are comic fans new fans don’t buy comics they will see it will they like it there not normal Comic fans
Antitrollpatrol
Antitrollpatrol - 5/22/2025, 1:19 PM
Man if someone didn't help make a movie about getting the death star plans(macguffin)
While I love rogue one and andor I think his comment is a bit hypocritical.
MakeAmericaGrea
MakeAmericaGrea - 5/22/2025, 1:32 PM
@Antitrollpatrol -

You're right.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 5/22/2025, 1:33 PM
@Antitrollpatrol - to be fair

That wasn’t his idea to do a story about that but yes , he did contribute to it .
LordMushu
LordMushu - 5/22/2025, 1:20 PM
I really don’t think that’s the issue. In fact, I think it’s the exact opposite. I think the decline was because there was less of a singular focus, and suddenly there was no longer an overarching connection. So instead of having a similar goal, even if subtle, they tried to tie all these different movies and shows together in other ways that were chaotic or random.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 5/22/2025, 1:27 PM
@LordMushu - I can understand that complaint moreso then this…

We got a lot of projects in a short amount of time (that was because of the D+ Chapek Mandate and the pandemic) so it created this sense of this saga being all over the place and it isn’t until recently we have started to see some direction.

Plus it didn’t help due to external reasons , they pivoted from the big bad they were setting up aswell
LordMushu
LordMushu - 5/22/2025, 1:38 PM
@TheVisionary25 - EXACTLY, I totally agree!
NGFB
NGFB - 5/22/2025, 1:26 PM
Theater attendance just isn't what it once was. People would rather watch on their 75" TV than pay $100+ for movie tickets, sodas, candy and popcorn for a family of four. Box office numbers need to be viewed pre-pandemic and post-pandemic. Domestic movie theater tickets sold: (from the-numbers.com/market)
2018: 1,311,000,000
2019: 1,225,000,000
2020: 220,000,000
2021: 444,000,000
2022: 702,000,000
2023: 819,000,000
2024: 762,000,000
2025: 697,000,000 (projected)
MakeAmericaGrea
MakeAmericaGrea - 5/22/2025, 1:32 PM
@NGFB -

A big part of it is people are sick of the wokeness.

Only fools think large numbers of people aren't rejecting the wokeness.
bobevanz
bobevanz - 5/22/2025, 3:27 PM
Okay now do box office revenue for those years. Even if there's a declining ticket sales number for 2025 (which I doubt) it'll still have a higher total revenue than the past two years. Using covid as a factor is literally putting your finger on the scale. Pre pandemic ticket sales and revenue by the end of 2025. You'll stop seeing movies release on digital after two weeks. They'll all go back to the 60+ window. They're also pivoting to more premium formats like Imax and Dolby Cinema. You don't have a 60 foot screen lmao. Discount Tuesdays and now Wednesdays. Matinee prices. Amc A-List gives you 4 movies a week, for the price of one premium ticket A MONTH. Cinemark gives you one ticket a month and 25% off concessions. You do realize concessions are where the theaters make this money right? Lmao. A matinee ticket is 6.50 where I live. 2 hours of entertainment for less than 7 bucks. Doom and gloom is over. There a million ways to see a movie for a good price if that's your issue. I don't think you'll find another other event for that price. Maybe high school baseball lmao
HashTagSwagg
HashTagSwagg - 5/22/2025, 1:32 PM
The writers killed it.
MotherGooseUPus
MotherGooseUPus - 5/22/2025, 1:44 PM
@HashTagSwagg - User Comment Image
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 5/22/2025, 1:34 PM
To each their own since it seems like he tends to not like the MacGuffin plot device in general which is an element in storytelling that originated from the days of Arthurian & even Greek legend so it’s a valid way to tell a story imo because ultimately what matters moreso is the characters journey/arc in pursuit of that.

Also perhaps Marvel may overuse that device but so do other blockbusters & stories in general aswell ( they have also done projects that don’t have anything to do with that either so just seems like a blanket statement).

Just seems like Gilroy is venting about a trope he doesn’t like and using Marvel as a scapegoat because it’s easy nowadays.

User Comment Image
MakeAmericaGrea
MakeAmericaGrea - 5/22/2025, 1:36 PM
Tony, you're an adult, quit swearing like a sailor to try to be perceived as cool. It's not working.

The MCU and Andor and other Disney Star Wars are all failing because they're too woke.
DSAC294
DSAC294 - 5/22/2025, 2:03 PM
@MakeAmericaGrea - you have to be the most creative lib on this site. I hope the DNC is paying you because you should not be putting out this level of effort for free
MakeAmericaGrea
MakeAmericaGrea - 5/22/2025, 2:09 PM
@DSAC294 -

Sit down and take five before you hurt your brain.
Shivermetimbers
Shivermetimbers - 5/22/2025, 1:37 PM
Lots of things contribute to the decline. It isnt just one thing. But I like his point. Writers and studios need to think outside of the box and stop relying on the same repetitive tropes over and over again.
vectorsigma
vectorsigma - 5/22/2025, 1:39 PM
Nothing wrong with a macguffin story if done right. Gilroy seems to sound like on the old school group and not the geek type.
thedrudo
thedrudo - 5/22/2025, 1:44 PM
Losing the characters that became heavy hitters for the MCU lead to the decline. You just can't replace that magic unless you literally just replace them in some sort of reboot.
MotherGooseUPus
MotherGooseUPus - 5/22/2025, 1:45 PM
Loved Andor. Best SW show ever and best SW content since.. go figure... Rogue One.

I dont 100% agree with him... but he certainly isnt wrong either.
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 5/22/2025, 1:57 PM
The chase for mcguffins isn't inherently a bad thing, but it is when it's the whole thing.

In defense of The Avengers, it's not. It's not only 13 years old, but characters do grow and it's most interesting scenes take place when they're just talking in a lab imo.
TheVisionary25
TheVisionary25 - 5/22/2025, 2:25 PM
@bkmeijer1 - I couldn’t agree more.

The characters are the reasons Avengers worked and has given the MCU longevity
Polaris
Polaris - 5/22/2025, 2:01 PM
Those movies did not fail tho
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