DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN - More Details Emerge About What Went Wrong With The Show (And What Will Likely Remain)

DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN - More Details Emerge About What Went Wrong With The Show (And What Will Likely Remain)

More details have emerged about why Marvel Studios is starting over with Daredevil: Born Again, and that's accompanied by an update about which plot points are likely to remain. Be warned, SPOILERS follow!

News
By JoshWilding - Oct 12, 2023 02:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Daredevil

Daredevil: Born Again isn't set to arrive on Disney+ for at least another year or more but the show is already being rebooted. Well, from a creative standpoint, at least. 

News broke yesterday that Marvel Studios is going back to the drawing board with the Man Without Fear's first MCU-set solo series. The show's writers and directors, meanwhile, have all been fired. The plan is still for the show to run for a total of eighteen episodes, split across two seasons, and just shy of half the entire thing had been shot prior to the Hollywood strikes. 

Some scenes will remain, but for the most part, it seems the plan is to essentially start from scratch. 

Over the past 24 hours, we've learned Matt Murdock wasn't going to suit up as Daredevil until the fourth episode and that he decided to give up being a vigilante after his best friend, Foggy Nelson, was shot and killed. Clearly, the idea was to give Elden Henson a cameo role before moving on to a new supporting cast (many fans are attacking Marvel Studios for killing the character but it's possible the actor didn't wish to return for anything more). 

As for Deborah Ann Woll's Karen Page, there are conflicting reports about whether she too is killed or simply not mentioned. 

We have another minor update to share with you today regarding what Daredevil: Born Again is expected to keep amid this massive creative shakeup. While you might be hoping Foggy gets a second chance at life when a new team take charge, it's said that "The most likely situation is that they are leaving the first couple of episodes intact with some new scenes to get Matt into costume earlier."

"Foggy’s death, the side plot of corrupt police misusing the Punisher logo, and the overarching plot of Mayor Fisk running New York, should still hold true."

This makes sense, especially as we've heard one of the biggest issues with the show and the fact the first four episodes were essentially a legal drama is that it was boring. The larger story wasn't the problem; the direction it was being taken in, however, was. 

Daredevil: Born Again is still happening but there's obviously no word on a premiere date. 

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0bstreperous
0bstreperous - 10/12/2023, 2:17 PM
Booo
RogerWilco
RogerWilco - 10/12/2023, 2:18 PM
IMO, whatever happens, it wont be as good as the Original Storyline.....
GhostDog
GhostDog - 10/12/2023, 2:22 PM
@RogerWilco - would love to see an animated movie of the original storyline.

Marvel needs to tap into its animation more.
Taonrey
Taonrey - 10/12/2023, 2:23 PM
@RogerWilco - well that’s obvious, Disney+ content is low effort and it’s not like they’re ever going to go as dark or mature as Netflix
Variant
Variant - 10/12/2023, 2:36 PM
@Taonrey - Except those Netflix shows are on D+...
Taonrey
Taonrey - 10/12/2023, 2:39 PM
@Variant - *disney+ original content. Happy?
marvel72
marvel72 - 10/12/2023, 3:10 PM
@RogerWilco -
Variant
Variant - 10/12/2023, 3:17 PM
@Taonrey - Still doesn't make a lot of sense. The MCU has made dark content complete with blood and killing. And DP3 is already confirmed rated R.

But also, to call it low effort makes zero sense.
GhostDog
GhostDog - 10/12/2023, 2:19 PM
Isn't this just some scooper claiming and assuming this and not THR? Scooper says "most likely" but the actual article doesn't list specifics of what elements will stay. Just says "Marvel plans to keep some scenes and episodes."
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 10/12/2023, 2:28 PM
@GhostDog - yeah. Only reason I clicked on this was that THR broke the story initially, hoping they'd have more now.

Instead it's just another scooper. If this scooper was really reliable, why didn't it broke the story earlier (and with these supposed details)?
LSHF
LSHF - 10/12/2023, 2:44 PM
@GhostDog - To me (and I'm sure this isn't normal or 100% correct), if it isn't directly from Marvel Studios, it might as well be clickbait.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/12/2023, 3:18 PM
@GhostDog @bkmeijer1 @LSHF - While I agree with you guys about the value of info from scoopers vs. the trades vs. Marvel Studios, it does make totally sense to me that Marvel wouldn't just scrap EVERYTHING that had been shot so far and start from scratch. There has to be some stuff that's worth keeping and it's going to cost them enough in both time and money as it is to redo what thy are, so my guess is that after Kevin & Co. sat down and decided exactly how the new creative direction should go (or perhaps the original one that the writers and directors weren't adhering closely enough to) they went through everything that had been already shot and decided what to keep and what had to go based on how closely it stuck to the direction.

I mention this in another post further down, but I think that given his workload and (apparently over) confidence in his original writers and directors, Kevin probably wasn't paying too much attention to how things were going with "DD:BA" at first and instead focusing on other things that he felt needed his attention more, and it wasn't until everything ground to a halt with the strikes that he was able to sit down and actually go through what had been done with this show and was like "The hell is this shit?".

And for as much as it sucks for us to have to likely wait longer for the show and for as much as this restart or whatever is going to cost Marvel, we should be thankful that Kevin caught it when he did because if he didn't review it until it was already done (as with their previous approach to making TV shows) it would likely would have been too cost prohibitive to fix it and we would have been stuck with it as it was, more or less (which is also probably the case with some of the other shows of lesser quality that we've gotten so far).
JDL
JDL - 10/12/2023, 3:32 PM
@StSteven - Up till now I really can't say I've agreed with the 'too much content at one time' complaint but this makes me go huh. Perhaps the lack of show runners will fix it.
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 10/12/2023, 4:45 PM
@StSteven - and that's exactly my problem with these scoopers. It's simply the most likely conclusion to draw from yesterday's report.

It doesn't take inside knowledge to come up with this. Especially after the report already dtopped. I would've been impressed if this was reported much earlier. For know I'm just glad Marvel is indeed taking it's time
StSteven
StSteven - 10/12/2023, 5:00 PM
@JDL - Yeah, I'm not professing to know anything more about the inner-workings at Marvel than anyone else here, but it just seems reasonable to me that at the rate that Marvel was cranking out content (and may still be to some degree as they're trying to finish up things that were already in production before they decided to start pumping the brakes) that there's only one Kevin to oversee everything and there are only 24 hours in a day, so he likely had to prioritize where he had to focus his time while hoping that other projects would continue along fine without as much supervision. How he chose to prioritize that I have no idea, but I'm guessing that at least some part of it was the degree of confidence that he had in the various writers, directors, etc.

But like I was saying above, at least he realized that their approach wasn't working before it was too late and these current and future projects, as well as the MCU in general, became an irredeemable mess (although I'm sure some folks think that that's already the case).
StSteven
StSteven - 10/12/2023, 5:05 PM
@bkmeijer1 - Same here. I'm nothing like a scooper and when I read all this stuff yesterday or whatever I immediately thought "There's no way Marvel is going to just trash EVERYTHING they've written and filmed so far and start completely from scratch (well, unless for some reason they let Cox film all his scened naked from the waste down, and even then (insert penis joke) Cox).". I just didn't have a social media platform and supposed "insider" to credit for the info.
JDL
JDL - 10/12/2023, 5:55 PM
@StSteven - The way I'm reading it the "process" worked, mostly, until they got to the TV shows. Probably the "process" had defects and these new shows are highlighting them.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/12/2023, 6:48 PM
@JDL - Totally. And I don't really fault them for what they were trying to do. Marvel Studios didn't have any experience doing TV shows and they had had such success with the movies it's reasonable to think that taking a similar approach to TV shows by basically making a 6 hour movie and chopping it up would work. And I give them credit for realizing that it's not working (or at least not working as well as they had hoped) and pivoting as they are, even in the middle of filming a new show. Some studios keep making the same mistakes and don't learn from them so nothing changes (not going to name names but clearly I'm referring to RKO Pictures 😉).
bkmeijer1
bkmeijer1 - 10/13/2023, 2:29 AM
@StSteven - next time just say it, so then I can say "I heard that..." and then we have a rumour going
JDL
JDL - 10/13/2023, 5:39 AM
@StSteven - Ah but they did have experience. As a company; AoS, Netflix, Runaways, C&D. Not all successful but tbey ignored it. Imo what problems they actually did have come from the writing. YMMV.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/13/2023, 5:31 PM
@bkmeijer1 - There you go. Likely to be more credible coming from us anyway 😉.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/13/2023, 5:56 PM
@JDL - True. As a company Marvel did have experience (with varying levels of success) in TV, but technically that was Marvel Television and not Marvel Studios. I know I'm kinda nitpicking there, but one thing we don't know is when MT went away, how many of those people working there (who obviously had experience with serialized TV storytelling) were carried over to MS. My guess is not a lot if any due to the fact that MS's whole idea with handling the TV shows in addition to the movies was to have them in sync and augmenting each other in a way that had never been done before. So my guess is that the D+ division is/was mostly, if not all, movie people which is why they tried to approach making the shows in the same way that they did making the movies, which is how we ended up where we are today.

And I'm not making excuses, just trying to offer a likely scenario to explain how/why things went down the way they did. I could be completely off-base but it seems like the most reasonable explanation.
JDL
JDL - 10/13/2023, 9:05 PM
@StSteven - I would say all of the creatives other than a few actors were jettisoned. The other thing was all of the TV shows had show-runners and as such were, writing aside, were decently crafted. Out-side of IF* which was a dumpster fire the others were as good as the story.

* I don't think IF was saveable. Imo the 4th character should have something else.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/13/2023, 10:37 PM
@JDL - Yeah, I honestly never heard anything about anyone from Marvel TV that was carried over to MS (someone with more spare time than myself might be able to crack that), BUT with MS now shifting its approach to the more serialized TV approach I wouldn't be surprised if Kevin started asking to get the numbers of the folks who were the show runners, writers, etc. on the more successful and better received Marvel TV shows (probably starting with the Netflix ones), to bring them back into the fold. Hell, that's what I would do.

Regarding "Iron Fist", while I enjoyed the show for what it was to a certain degree (and not having much background with the character from the comics), I do feel like they could have done better with it. I didn't really have a problem with the performances of the main characters, it's just that I was expecting more of a "Zen Master" IF, and not the barefooted hippy who did the whole "fish out of water" schtick. I understand that they didn't want him to be aloof and unreliable, but for someone who's trained in martial arts since he was a kid and should therefore be highly disciplined and serious, this Danny just kind of missed the mark.

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind seeing Marvel bring back both him and LC (with the same actors) for a "Heroes for Hire) show, which (if done well) could go a long way toward redeeming their respective characters (especially Danny). Individually I don't think that they would have the audience, but combine I think that it could work. Plus it's a kind of dynamic that we haven't seen in the MCU yet, so there's that.
JDL
JDL - 10/14/2023, 7:52 AM
@StSteven - FWIW I can see Heroes for Hire. That version of Danny Rand makes a nice pairing with Luke. Also afaik the only person (non-actor) the movies and TV shared was Joss Whedon.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/14/2023, 2:24 PM
@JDL - Yeah, and last I checked Whedon's not exactly the first choice for anyone to go to for advice on how to handle anything Hollywood-related these days (however from what I understand if you need to know what aisle to find toilet plungers at Home Depot he's your guy).
JDL
JDL - 10/14/2023, 4:27 PM
@StSteven - Funny thing. I've only heard one semi-legitimate beef on Whedon and that's from Charisma Carpenter and imo she screwed up*. No woman so far has come forward and made a real complaint other than that.

*If you want the details on why I feel like that feel free to ask.
StSteven
StSteven - 10/14/2023, 7:08 PM
@JDL - Well there was other stuff in addition to the sexual/abusive actions toward women like how he treated other actors in general, some worse than others and his general behavior on-set. But just to be clear, I'm not necessarily buying nor denying it. Hollywood is nothing if it's not a little social club and they can turn on someone on a dime and gang up like a bunch of high school mean girls and run someone out of town if they want. But that's not to people don't deserve it (*cough cough* Weinstein *cough cough*). Ultimately I try to just hold judgment until allegations are proven one way or the other, preferably through law enforcement and in court. Sure the courts make mistakes, but they're about the best tool we have to get to the truth, especially in an environment like Hollywood. Likewise, with Jonathon Majors: right now I don't really have an opinion as to his guilt or innocence given how the evidence seems to go one way and then the other and then back again. I like him as an actor (especially as to how's he's handled Kang(s) so far and I'm looking forward to his Timely), so I hope he's cleared, but we'll just have to see how it goes.
Scripturepoetic
Scripturepoetic - 10/14/2023, 7:21 PM
@JDL - What are the details for why you feel like that??
JDL
JDL - 10/15/2023, 9:26 AM
@Scripturepoetic - She was told at the end of season 3 that the entire 4th season was her as primary. Much of season 3 and some of season 2 was setup for her in S4. In any case she was warned to be very careful over the break.

She got pregnant and did not tell the production for over a month. By that time they were on the script for the 5th or 6th show. Every finished script had to be trashed. $100 thousand wasted, worse the detailed season plan was now junk. Whedon was justifiably pissed. The actress was not signed as a cast member for the 5th season, although she did appear in one episode as a guest.
NinnesMBC
NinnesMBC - 10/12/2023, 2:22 PM
"many fans are attacking Marvel Studios for killing the character but it's possible the actor didn't wish to return for anything more"

How exactly could you theorize that Elden Henson didn't want to come back to play a character vital to Daredevil's stories as his best friend and that he enjoyed portraying for years which is the role he's known the most for? IDK what is exactly your personal beef with Foggy's character but you gotta work on toning down your bias.
SirDuckAlot
SirDuckAlot - 10/12/2023, 2:23 PM
Just recast Foggy. He wasn't that great of a actor anyway.
TheLobster
TheLobster - 10/12/2023, 3:06 PM
@SirDuckAlot - well he’s dead in this series anyways so..
JDL
JDL - 10/12/2023, 3:29 PM
@SirDuckAlot - Guess what ? Most folks enjoyed him and killing him off feels off. Just better to ignore the character than to kill him like that.
ShimmyShimmyYA
ShimmyShimmyYA - 10/12/2023, 4:27 PM
@JDL - I remember people complaining about how much he was crying about Matt being daredevil , this seems like revisionist history
JDL
JDL - 10/12/2023, 6:00 PM
@ShimmyShimmyYA - I'm sure some folks didn't like him but those whiners are not a majority.
THEDARKKNIGHT1939
THEDARKKNIGHT1939 - 10/12/2023, 2:25 PM
Daredevil: Born Again, Again
HashTagSwagg
HashTagSwagg - 10/12/2023, 2:31 PM
@THEDARKKNIGHT1939 - Daredevil: Born again but Karen actually dies this time.
thedrudo
thedrudo - 10/12/2023, 2:25 PM
How does this stuff get greenlit? It’s like Feige had no idea what was approved.
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