EDITORIAL: I think Nolan missed the point, don't you?

EDITORIAL: I think Nolan missed the point, don't you?

Admittedly, there are already too many articles on here on the subject of why we loved/hated (delete as applicable) TDKR but in the few I've read no one seems to have brought up an issue that for me is the most fundemental in Batman's character. Read on if you're not utterly sick of these articles...

Editorial Opinion
By Redhood88 - Aug 05, 2012 04:08 AM EST
Filed Under: Batman

OK like I said up there, there are too many of these things so I promise to keep it short.

When I saw Bane and everyone bitched about the costume I said "No worries, as long as they represent the character respectfully I can live without the mask."
They did OK. Not great but at least he had some brains.

When I saw Cat woman and everyone bitched about the costume I said "No worries, as lond as she's sexy as [frick] and the tension between her and Batman is tangible I can live without the whip."
On that count I think Hataway deserves the credit.

I didn't think I had to worry about the Batman character. i thought, having seen the first two, that Nolan understood his motivation and his deep psychological issues. I thought he understood that here was a man that by day had to pretend to live in the real world but underneath IS Batman.

It's my opinion that he would sooner fake his own death as Bruce Wayne so that he could rid himself of the burden of playing the playboy by day and truly devote himself to his one man war on crime. It was only characters such as Alfred who are concerned for his humanity that encourage him to remain a part of the real world. So to see him fake Batman's death so that he can live happily ever after (and with Selina Kyle no less?! Wasn't the whole point of that relationship that they could never actually be together? Wasn't that what made it interesting?!) as a normal, trouble free individual just goes against everything I ever thought Batman was.

There, rant over.

But one last thing.

"You should use your full name...ROBIN"

Give me a [frick]ing break.

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Knightrider
Knightrider - 8/5/2012, 5:09 AM
I kinda agree with you. As I personally think Bruce Wayne should be the only Batman. It was his unique circumstances that provided him with the drive to become and maintain being the dark knight.

That said, this was a conclusion, based on the fact that unlike the comics, these actors get older, and based on the last series of Batman movies, changing actor, just doesn't seem to work. So I was happy with the ending and what Batman did when it was put in the context of the film itself.

Didn't mind the "Robin" bit, seeing as we were never going to get the one from the comics, i felt this was a nice nod to the character, and seemed to me he was a merger of the 3 main robins. He had Dick Graysons tragedy as a child, Jason Todd's hotheadness and Tim Drake's natural detective abilities.
BizarroGrif
BizarroGrif - 8/5/2012, 5:39 AM
@Knightrider You're right about the amalgamtion of the Robins. I liked that too. Having said that, this was clear without such an on-the-nose reference to it. I would have thought Nolan, with all his emphasis on not spoon-feeding his audience, really rammed that one down our throats.
breakUbatman
breakUbatman - 8/5/2012, 5:55 AM

In TDK he sacrificed Batman to take the fall for Dent, in TDKR he sacrifices Bruce Wayne to reestablish some stability in Gotham.

Bruce Wayne was emotionally defeated by what the Joker did, then Bane came and trashed his body and his city. To me it's fitting that someone who has been on a path of pain vengeance since childhood can finally find happiness.

Batman isn't gone as such, the Bat signal at the end showed that if Gordon calls Batman will come.

Basically the whole point and theme was that Batman isn't a man, he's a legend. As Ra's Al Ghul stated immortality takes many forms and just as Ra's legacy has endured so will Batman's.

****"You should use your full name...ROBIN"****

I thought that was cool because everyone knows Batman and Robin, therefore even if you don't read comics you get that easter egg goodness.

I loved 'The Thanos Scene' but imagine for a moment if you will, what it must have felt like seeing that scene and having to ask who the hell that was and "to court death" being just another line in the movie.

Redhood88
Redhood88 - 8/5/2012, 6:11 AM
@breakUbatman

I know Nolan didn't "kill" the Batman character. But the Bruce Wayne I know would die before passing the mantle.

As for the Robin thing, it's nice to involve everyone but it was integral. They didn't NEED to know which reserves the comparison of his character for the invested fan. I don't think there's anything worng with that.

Imagine if Thanos response was "Court death? That's sounds great. I love Death. I want her to be my girlfriend!"

I know I'm exaggerating but hopefully you see my point.
Redhood88
Redhood88 - 8/5/2012, 6:12 AM
wasn't integral*

anyone else still missing the edit button
CPBuff22
CPBuff22 - 8/5/2012, 7:04 AM
Well written and agreed, though I thought Bane was nothing like his comic book character. And on that note Christopher Nolan agreed saying he was "Unlike anything we ever seen before".
breakUbatman
breakUbatman - 8/5/2012, 8:35 AM
Redhood88

The Bruce Wayne you know would die before passing on the mantle, but what about the Bruce Wayne who felt Dent was worthy to take his place as Gotham's protector?

Thanos response would be irrelevant either way because only a few people get the importance of his appearance. I think it's the reason why it was a mid credits scene. It takes away from the main movie experience when you are left in the dark. These movie's target the general movie going public first that's who they aim to please.
Tainted87
Tainted87 - 8/5/2012, 9:10 AM
I think that Nolan has the idea to make every character THAT character through the use of found objects, just as fan trailers or fan music videos illustrate their movie or songs through the use of found footage.

Bruce gets a Tumbler, and there is not only more than one in this movie, but they are sitting at Wayne Enterprises.

Nolan definitely recycles, and I respect him for that, but Batman needs to keep on building. We saw it in Batman Begins, why the full-stop?
NITRAMtheJudge
NITRAMtheJudge - 8/5/2012, 11:31 AM
Honestly I don't think Nolan missed a point. I think you missed the point. Nolan obviously had a vision along with his partners. Nolan made the Batman realistic and practical unlike the previous installments. Let's just admit it, nothing is going to ever be exactly like the comics, for the simple fact that comics, cartoons or whatever in that nature can last forever and go in unimaginable directions, but for the sake of a live-action film, the reality is actors/actresses get older and can't go on forever. So to me Nolan brought us a masterpiece in a sense. Of course it's not going to be perfect, but I think it's close as you're gonna get in a film. Nolan took his vision, mixed it with the comics, wrote a compelling story with a beginning, middle, and end and also made Bruce Wayne have a life. I mean think about it, in the Nolan universe Bruce never was close to anyone besides Rachel, Alfred and Lucius and of course his parents, but now he has Selina and they can have a life. And Nolan did give us Robin in a way so hopefully now someone can continue the story. Hopefully...
Redhood88
Redhood88 - 8/5/2012, 12:09 PM
Still think they could have wrapped it up without having to go down the 'and they all lived happily ever after' but I understand your point about rounding it off. Feel like Nolan only did it to preserve his version which is entirely understandable but he could have left it with Bruce still as Batman and I garuntee the rebbot would have not continued off from Rises
EarOne
EarOne - 8/5/2012, 4:15 PM
okay..here's my take. it's not that i WANT TDKR to fail. on the contrary..i was really hoping it will be the best of the three Nolan's Batfilms, if not just as great as the previous two.

that's why i was sooooo disappointed that the film just left a bitter taste in my mouth. the story's got a lot of potential to be epic..but, with too many new characters and out-of-character depiction of the major characters (namely Bruce)..i'm just too frustrated to just go along and enjoy the ride. and the plot holes...don't get me started on THAT.

for me, Bruce's absence, his devastation, post-Joker, shouldn't be THAT long (8 years..??!! that alone is very out-of-character..bruce should've been much stronger than that).
the Bruce-Talia relationship should've been established from much earlier in the film and used as a device that pulls Bruce from his seclusion. Talia (as Miranda) should've been the remedy that Bruce takes to move on from Rachel and her death.
the focus shouldn't be too much on JGL's John Blake. it's not John Blake Rises..it's The Dark Knight (BATMAN) Rises.
The Bane-Batman fights should've been choreographed AND shot and edited much better..each should've been way better and more ass-kicking than the previous mano-a-mano on screen fights..the most recent being Vin Diesel-The Rock fight, in Fast Five. sides..Bats should've taken off his cape in those fights, cuz, it just makes the whole proceeding looks kinda ridiculous. Bane, being the smart and badass fighter as he is, coulda and shoulda used the big-ass cape to beat his opponent.
Catwoman should have more purpose and something at stake relating to the main story. the one in the movie is just silly. speaking of her..with Miranda-Bruce's relationship being well-established, her appearance would then have a stronger purpose..which is to distract Bruce from the spell cast by Miranda for her diabolical purposes. thus, making Selina character more significant.
The police-Bane's men final fight's just too ridiculous. i mean, with all the guns involved, they shouldn't've been having a street BRAWL. They'd more likely to do shootouts, but not fisticuffs forcryinoutloud..!!!

if there's a time machine, i hope Nolan would get on it and RE-do this installment. make it into two films if need be.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 8/5/2012, 9:03 PM
Something else that I never see anyone complaining about is how Bruce was only actively Batman for about one year. He started in Begins. I dont know how much time passes during that movie once he becomes Batman, but it cant be more than a couple Weeks. Then, even if we're being generous, we can say no more than a year passes between Begins and TDK. Then the events of TDK, which cant be more than a month.

Then quits for 8 years, and returns for one final adventure before quitting again.

So, seriously, how can any respecting comic fan be okay with the idea of Bruce only being Batman for a total of a year and a couple months?

Its blasphemy.
gmoney0505
gmoney0505 - 8/6/2012, 12:47 AM
Why does everyone thinks Bruce lives Happily ever after? It was never said that thats what happen and i never interpreted that way when i saw it the first time.

For all we know, Bruce is on vacation time and taking Batman worldwide.
BizarroGrif
BizarroGrif - 8/6/2012, 1:30 AM
@gmoney - It was implied since Alfred had expressed his fantasy of seeing Bruce at that very cafe havng let go of his pain, left Gotham behind and being happy.

I don't think it was intended to be left up to interpretation that Bruce had now acheived that.

The Batsignal was restored for Blake who (I'm assuming with the help of the money that had been left to Alfred and aided by Fox on the gadget side) to 'rise' himself. This is why he was lifted on the platform in the cave in the very last scene. In many ways he was the Dark knight of the title.

I can't say i like anything that happened in this film in the final act. Pity.
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 8/6/2012, 3:23 AM
@ gmoney

Bruce onviously left the Batman mantle to John Blake. When you take that and the things that Ra's said in Begins about Batman being a symbol, combined with what Dent said in TDK about Batman not wanting to do it forever and looking for someone to pass the mantle on, and Bruce's reaction to that....it becomes pretty obvious that Bruce gave up on being Batman.
jjk2814
jjk2814 - 8/6/2012, 5:15 PM
I think simply by leaving Bruce alive at the end, Nolan is opening his world for our imaginations. In my opinion by showing him in a "happily ever after" scenario, all Nolan is trying to prove, beyond a doubt is that Bruce is very much alive.

To answer the question "did it miss the point?" I'd empathically say; No, it got the point exactly!

At the end, if there were kids(like Alfred said there would be in his fantasy) with Bruce, implying more time had passed than a month or a year or so, then yes it would be pretty clear that Bruce is done being Batman.

But, they made the choice NOT to show John Blake with the suit.
They made the choice NOT to kill Bruce.
and
They made the choice not to leave it open, with simply Alfred smiling before cutting to Bruce and Selina. Which would have framed the debate as "IS BRUCE ALIVE??"

All we know is that Bruce is alive.

The question I always ask people who have problems with this is, who say's Bruce isn't just taking a break? Or what happens if a situation arises that John Blake isn't able to handle? Would Batman, the true Batman, return? Of course he would.

I don't try to force that idea down anyone's throat but offer it as an alternative to looking at the ending as an ABSOLUTE.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 8/6/2012, 6:53 PM
@ jjk

Thats the best argument ive seen anyone make, that Bruce would return to help if Blake needed him. Cant argue that at all, bud.

But with the themes presented in TDK, the conversation with Dent when he mentions that Batman cant want to do it forever, and that he's looking for someone to pass his mantle to, on top of Nolan making it a point to show Bruce's battered body in Rises, to me its pretty clear that its meant to imply that Bruce is done with Batman and is moving on with his life.
Supes17
Supes17 - 8/6/2012, 10:25 PM
The whole Robin thing was just a little treat for the fans, that was all.

Instead of dragging out the film over 10 years with the 3 Robins, he just combined them all into one and created a new character...

They created a new Robin for The Dark Knight Returns...

i dont see anything wrong with Blake.


Burton was going to make one of the Wayans brothers Robin. In his version, he was going to be a street smart kid who was good with gadgets. No costume. And he would have been in the film for less than 10 minutes...

Geektality
Geektality - 8/7/2012, 5:59 PM
How is this an editorial? It's one idiot complaining about something for a few paragraphs, no longer than most Wikipedia stubs. OH! THAT QUALIFIES AS AN IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS OF EARTH-SHATTERING IMPORTANCE!!!!
KnobGoblin
KnobGoblin - 8/7/2012, 7:48 PM
Soooo, I guess Jean Paul Valley, Dick Grayson and Terry McGuiness are all proof that Bruce Wayne would NEVER give up the mantle of Batman to anyone else then? The difference is comics never end, they go on forever. So even if they do try to end Bruce Wayne's story like with Knightfall or Batman R.I.P. he will always return and the status quo will be reestablished. Comics are like a game of a chess, everytime the game ends the board is reset to play again.
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