Watchmen: a bystander’s review of the graphic novel.

Watchmen: a bystander’s review of the graphic novel.

Find out if my first time was as good as yours.

Editorial Opinion
By Shaman - Feb 27, 2009 12:02 AM EST
Filed Under: Watchmen

Spoiler Warning!!!

Believe it or not, I had never read Alan Moore’s Watchmen. I was already on board the fan wagon for the movie regardless of what I would've ultimately thought of the source material after reading it. I had acquired a lot of knowledge on that novel with the help of past acquaintances even though I had never read it before. I knew exactly what it was about or what was going to happen but was lacking all the major details. Having read a lot of heated debates and even participating in some, it made me want to read it to finally understand what the whole "Hoopla" was about the infamous squid. I already knew the purpose of it in Moore’s storyline and couldn't possibly understand why some fans were so adamant about Snyder, choosing to exclude it from his film.

After reading it, I understood why this novel was so popular. What caught my attention was the "way" it was written with many vantage points kind of like the TV show of "Heroes". But, and there is a massive "but" to bring up on Moore's work, I found his creation incredibly “flawed” or rather “illogical”. I can just hear you all now screaming "WHAT, WHAT, WHAAAATT???" in the same fashion as Kyle's mother in South Park. Don’t get me wrong, this novel is a brilliant showcase of Moore’s versatility as a writer but a few concepts in his storyline were lacking in my honest opinion. Don’t worry, I’m not just all bark and no bite, I will evidently explain why and I will expect all you’re “constructive” contributions to enlighten me as to what my critical mind might have missed. After all, perception IS relative.

I had heard a great deal about the “tales of the Black Freighter” which I knew nothing about. This parallel storyline that accompanied the graphic novel left me wondering what the purpose behind it was. The only thing I could get out of it was that it had to do with the relativity of perception. It had very little purpose in the actual story other than maybe linking Veidt's actions and saying that we should keep an open mind and to explain that the most horrid actions committed could all have an honourable and logical reason behind them. How one's life experience can alter one's perception. It could have been a smart idea for the 80's but today, it wasn’t that innovative and the story seemed to be nothing more than just filling space. Unless like I stated above, I might have missed the real meaning behind it. Maybe it was just there to provide the vendor an audience which would be us represented by the kid who was reading the comic. Either way, it is obviously not an important part to the whole of the story which also explains it’s exclusion from the movie adaptation. An animated feature of the Black Freighter is said to be accompanying the release of the film.

The biggest lack of logic came from the concept behind Dr. Manhattan’s existentialism. I'm not sure if Moore knew what that actually implied when he thought of his creation. He tried to explain how quasi-omniscient he had become (meaning he was aware of anything that his body would experience at any point in time in his existence), but neglected to realise that his character was in total contradiction of a very important fact. One of the aspects of this character seemed to be an attempt to explain “Fate” and the futility behind our will to alter it. But the very existence of the concept of omniscience defies the philosophy that Moore created for his story or rather wished to elaborate how he thought of the matter. He completely disregarded our own free will which would make us chose our own fate if we were omniscient. Omniscience cannot exist alongside fate which is why well trained and experienced psychics see various possibilities and outcomes depending on one’s choices and not just the very narrow and linear road of fate. Dr. Manhattan seemed nothing more than a whore who said yes to any event on account of a lack of interest. It was also illogical for him to accept the event of the squid but then contest Rorschach’s intentions of reporting Veidt’s actions. Because of the tachyon emissions, he wasn’t aware of the reason behind the event in N.Y. but didn’t make anything of it either. Logically, he wouldn’t have gone after Rorschach at the end. You’re either existential or not. Now before any of you start quoting me on my “free will” statement, an existential being doesn’t experience human emotions and Moore didn’t provide logical reasoning behind Rorschach’s destruction. It would have been more logical for Veidt to have shot a heat seeker missile at him and have Dr. Manhattan not interfere on account of existentialism.

As for the concept of Omniscience, which is in part knowing exactly what is to come, instead of letting your body experience what you know will happen, logically you’d just “know” and have fully experienced the phenomenon without the “need” to physically go. To "know" without having to "physically experience" is also in part existentialism. So he wouldn't or shouldn't have felt the "need" or “want” to leave for another galaxy, he would have already knew what awaited him unless of course that galaxy had high tachyon emissions which prevented him to know off hand but that wasn’t really explained now was it?


Also, I do of course have to give my review on the “squid issue” since it is the main cause for debate. What I knew of the squid was merely her purpose which was to “represent” an alien threat that would force nations to cooperate and finally unify. The very idea is not only distinguished but also brilliant. However, I wasn’t aware of her origins or the details surrounding it. The only details I knew of were that Veidt was behind it and that the Comedian had found out about it, hence why he was murdered in the opening. I had heard that what he had found on that secret island owned by Veidt were the writers and artists that were apparently reported missing months ago. I was confused as to what purpose would artists have in the squid’s origins. I was disappointed to learn after reading the novel that the squid was actually “created” by Veidt through biogenetic alterations which made it an earth based creature and not an alien. The “creation” of this massive being also never logically explained the purpose behind a gathering of writers and artists. Veidt being a biogenetics expert in my opinion would be talented enough to create this being on his own without anyone’s “crayoned rendition”. The only obvious kidnapping/murder required for his creation would have simply been the psychic who involuntarily lent his brain to the cause so to speak.

I was also unaware of Moore’s creative details surrounding the issue of teleportation. I was surprised to find out that teleportation required Dr. Manhattan’s highly careful and attentive mind to execute without harm, or else the being at hand would die upon arrival to destination. This concept seemed odd but wasn’t overwhelming since I already knew that the squid was doomed to eminent destruction in the heart of N.Y. Only the details varied but I thought the reason behind her death was that two objects cannot occupy the same space, and by teleporting a being of monumental mass in a narrow street or even directly where a building would have already been located, the creature would obviously perish initiating the shockwave generated by the stress level of the psychic brain.

What is overwhelming is the lack of logic behind the predestined death of the creature. Seeing as how the threat is actually self neutralised, all that was left is casualty and collateral damage. Surely this event wouldn’t cause worldwide unification for there would simply be no logical reason behind it. Radars never picked up any signals of orbiting alien ships which would create panic and logically force the world to unite itself for an attempt at survival. History has proven that people at war take a drastic turn to spiritualism in desperation. The Russian’s would have perceived nothing else from this event than a helping hand from an act of god and a confirming sign to continue their attack and ultimately conquer. Which made the concept of unification from the movie “Independence Day”, that much more brilliant and logically acceptable. If the squid had been alive and kickin’, destroying half the city “physically” or with “psyonic bursts”, then the world would’ve united to defeat the threat at hand and realise that they were fundamentally “brothers in arms” obliterating any prior source of conflict.

We could only hope that all it would take is an event instead of an actual threat but reality seems to be sitting this one out on the fence. Even though a realistic approach is mandatory for success at the box office as history has proven time and time again which is probably the very reason why Snyder decided to exclude the squid in his adaptation. I concluded that Veidt did not create a “squid” but an actual event that could be presented in any way shape or form provided it couldn’t be linked to human hands. I will wait in anticipation for the release of his “vision” to discover the logical reason behind his perception. In the mean time, feel free to explain to me in any possible way how my analysis is wrong. I will reply as soon as possible.



The “Shaman” has spoken!
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ElBeaster
ElBeaster - 2/27/2009, 1:40 PM
Don't feel bad. I've never read it either. I'm watin' til' March 6 and I'm reading it immediately after the movie. I want to be thinking while I'm watching it in theaters, "This is [frick]ing awesome!" instead of "Hey! They left out a bunch of stuff and he should be more like this and blah blah blah..."
Shaman
Shaman - 2/27/2009, 1:42 PM
Good point. It was my initial plan but then i was sick and there simply wasn't much to talk about on the website so i just started reading it. It was well worth it!!! The best part of the novel to me is obviously Roarschach's investigating.
ElBeaster
ElBeaster - 2/27/2009, 2:39 PM
My brother read it and said the best part is Manhattan on Mars. Can't wait to see the movie! I'm going to the earliest showing possible next Friday. ONE WEEK! If you're looking for a great graphic novel to read then pick up The Sandman series if you haven't already. I'm on the 5th volume now and the series is incredible.
NoobMike
NoobMike - 2/27/2009, 3:25 PM
Shaman, you knew I'd be forced to try and debate with you, so here it is.

Not sure how to approach this... but I'll try. The thing with Watchmen is that it is extremely layered, as a matter of fact the first time I read it, I knew it was different than anything I had ever read but left me with a distaste for it, years later I reread it and saw it in a whole different light.

Regarding the squid, the artists and writters that dissapear, are avant-garde artists that were always at the center of controversy for their artistic views, the music, images, stories, that they created were imprinted into the squids brain and made it so his brain would project those images (of alien nature) into the minds of millions making most of them go mad, and the the rest of them believe in an alien threat (I remember Veidt explaining it, although I have to agree that it is a rather idealistic view and would probably not happen, it is a view I'm rather fond of lying to myself in order to believe in it, I mean I know that until the aliens had decimated most of the population, most governments would not care one bit about the other specially Russia and USA in the 80s). And although there is no spaceships, there is the center for transdimensional investigation, which is exactly where the squid hits, if you look around, there are many panels where they reference the progress they are making with their investigation, leading up to the attack. Also Veidt being the businesman he was, I think he would own at least one major tv network giving him the power to release fabricated news about it. And I also believe that the comedian discovering the squid is what breaks him, not the fact of attacking NY or killing millions (after all he seems very comfortable with collateral damage all along).

As for teleportation, I always envisioned it as not a problem of two objects ocuppying the same space, rather of putting everything where it should be and not affect the inner workings of a living organism, but that was how I saw it.

Now for the black freighter, there is indeed a parallel between Veidt's actions (I would actually think, behind all the character's actions) and the story behind the black freighter, but there are shorter parallels between the different stories going on and the specific chapter, which I think just add to the sense Moore wanted to portray at the moment.

Now for Manhattan, I do agree that killing rorscharch seems as something that would probably have worked better if done by Veidt. But how I have explained the whole thing to myself (even if I don't fully believe it) is that Manhattan is a character who never had control over his life, first his dad, then his work, then his girlfriend, then his country, then his scientific research. So in a way I see it as an action that was forced on him (and he was glad to take the role due to his personality and past actions) both by rorscharch and veidt. It's either that or he was still a bit off due to the tachyons. But anyway that is how I see most of the issues you raised, Hope you are feeling better.
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 2/27/2009, 3:46 PM
Hey dude, very interesting article and all valid points. But like noob..you know im gonna debate! Well heres my take on a few of the issues you raised.

I think the black freighter, aside from mirroring the characters journeys, is also a sort of homage to the power of stories..in this case comics. Its not just the frieghter but the kid and the news guy that are important. They represent us, but also an innocence that the main characters in the story can never have again after all the things they have seen and done. So its that more devastating at the end when those 2, along with the rest, pay the price for The Watchmens actions/inactions

As for Manhatten, well i agree, he is an asshole! in fact i have always felt he was the villain of the piece. He only believes himself to be omnipotent but hes not..hes also delusional. He seeks to distance himself from human emotions and concerns because he believes that these are the things that lead to Wars and violence. But in doing so he grows arrogant and completely indifferent. He starts to see the error of his ways a bit at the end when confonted by Laurie..and actually i think him killing Rorschach is as much an act of mercy in his mind as anything else.
TheMyth
TheMyth - 2/27/2009, 6:32 PM
Rorschach01: You hit the nail on the head with Dr. Manhattan. The only thing omnipotent about him is his power, his personality is still very much human. Existential? Ha! More like stoic, arrogant, detached, and in possession of a twisted Messiah complex. But he still doesn't outdo Ozy in douchebaggery. To me, Rorschach was the closest thing to the real hero. But like you said Shaman, perception is relative, which is what actually makes this story one of a kind. There is not cut and dried good-guy bad-guy conflict, just each character doing what they 'percieve' to be right, and who is actually right depends on the perception of the reader.
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 2/27/2009, 6:54 PM
Well ozy was a bastard no doubt! But at least in his own twisted mind he believed he was doing the right thing for the greater good..The Doc could have done practically anything he wanted to save the world but he chose not too..i think hes worse in some ways, Ozy in others..but like you said, the whole graphic novel is shades of gray
FalconX2
FalconX2 - 2/27/2009, 8:02 PM
(Good luck reading this... :) I'm going to bed :P)

The Black Freighter is not necessary for story line, however, it provides immense reflections on the Watchmen world. When you read a story, you try to imagine yourself in their world and accept their actions, settings, peoples, etc as real. In the case of the Watchmen, it is a reflection of the time it was written. The Black Freighter gives us an opportunity to go a step farther and see the reflection of the reflection. We see the type of world someone tries to escape to just to get away from the Watchmen reality. As you read Watchmen, and then read the pieces of the Black Freighter, you see that their actions and philosophies almost coincide.

The irony is that we see the fiction of the fiction almost more real than the fiction itself. For even if the Black Freighter is considered their escape from reality, we watch it mimic reality.

Art imitates life imitates art imitates life, etc... Except we get to go one farther step and say the art of the art imitates the life of the art which imitates life. It becomes an infinite cascade of mirrors of reality.

Also... Undead pirate stories are awesome!

As for Manhattan, you actually have it most right (from my point of view). His actions are supposed to confuse, or even down right not make sense. But even in the confusion of his reasoning, his character does what it is supposed to. His existence is to show the infallibility of man becoming or even understanding a god.

Before the accident, we see Manhattan as a boy, convinced that to please his father he must be a watchmaker. Then commanded by his father to become a scientist. Then because of an "uncontrollable" act of fate turn into Manhattan. Then as Manhattan he is ordered by his government to "win" wars. It is not until he finally breaks at the thought of being the killing stroke for all those he thought he was helping, that we see him take an honest decision for himself.
Now, keeping that in mind...

While Manhattan has a very existentialist view, it appears to come from more of the arrogance of having
"infinite" power, than from actually being omnipotent. We know for a fact he is not omniscient, he only knows everything backwards and forwards in time in situations where he is directly present, but does not know EVERYTHING from ALL TIMES.

We learn this when he speaks to Laurie on Mars. He says that she will tell him about her and Dan. Her response is surprise that he already knows, and he corrects her, that no, he does not know. He DOES NOT know that she and Dan ARE together, he DOES know that she will TELL HIM they are together. Only after she tells him, will he actually know they are together... Now then, does that make sense? No. And it is not supposed to. All it is, is another intricacy in the Watchmen story that shows us that even if we, as humans, can obtain godhood, as Manhattan, we would not even be able to comprehend ourselves.

Ergo (yes, I just said Ergo), the underlying point to get across is how can we ever possibly understand God (or Allah, or Jehovah, etc), if we wouldn't even be able to understand ourselves. And THIS just comes from how we would perceive time. It doesn't even get into being able to feel every molecule of every piece of matter, or any number of other impossible abilities Manhattan has.

Now as for the importance of Manhattan in the story line. He does nothing but be a subservient ultimate being for everyone around him. He was the god that answered all your prayers. Once he left Earth, he became the god that turned a blind eye. Or another way you can put it, he was the god that blinked. And in that split-second his eyes were shut, Viedt was able to "save the world."

So then why would Manhattan kill Rorschach just to protect the secret of "the end." Because while Manhattan is detached from the world, he does actually still have emotion. We see that when he smiles (so rarely), we see it when we realize the only reason Laurie is a gov't baby is to keep Manhattan "calm." We see it when he questions Comedians actions during the war. We see it when even with all the powers, he still wants to please. That need to please eventually narrowed to just Laurie. So then to keep the peace of the world where Laurie can be happy. Rorschach must not give the secret away.

What happens when a god plays favorites?

The irony is, even as you are questioning whether the act was the morally right thing to do, so much death, to save so many more lives, we see that in the end Rorschach has made sure that there is no secret. After ALL THAT, when they set out to save the world, you question if even they were able to do it.

So you have to ask yourself, what happens when even the supermen fail?

As for your assumption that the Russians (or even other countries) would say "Huzzah God has struck the heathens." That is absolutely, one-hundred percent completely possible.

I just saw it from the stand point of being a person in Russia. When I would have found out New York was just destroyed by a giant teleporting alien squid, I would be yelling, "which one of these damn stars do we need to point a nuke at."

And the ultimate beauty of all this. I can't say you are wrong, just like you can't say I am wrong. The Watchmen universe is so intricate, so amalgamated from the characters' own perception, that everyone's view is right. It is how you see it.

That alone, is a lesson that even society seems to yet learn.

It is a masterpiece of intricacies of interpretation.

Also, for more information on Dr. Manhattan's perception on time, I suggest the book Imagining the Tenth Dimension: http://www.tenthdimension.com/
Their website used to have a neat little flash video that gives a fairly good surmise.
Joslezio85
Joslezio85 - 2/28/2009, 12:18 AM
well, very interesting points on all counts. But i think i can sum it up for everyone. It was a good novel. (Yes, I've read it.) Being turned into a good movie. That's all. Made a book, made it into a movie. goodnight.
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 2/28/2009, 1:40 AM
Jeez this is a just a mass of issues brought up, challenged and responded to. This should have been like three or four articles instead of one, but I'll try to answer as usefully and succinctly as I can.

A lot of my responses were already made more or less by other posters. Clearly there is a lot of smarts here, even if some of that smartness is from my perspective smartly incorrect.

I'll try to respond chronologically to correspond to the original post (man hardly anyone's gonna read my critique with the mountain of words above and within my post)

BLACK FREIGHTER: Saying that this part of the story is unnecessary to the plot is like saying the background is unnecessary to the mona lisa. Could you tell the story without it? sure, would it be as good if you did? no. Art and literature are not utilitarian exercises. How about Radiohead without half the background sounds? The black freighter does a lot of things important to the work. It emphasizes, creates symmetry, editorializes and enhances the realism of the non-black freighter world. Perception is relative, so if you have components in a fiction that are clearly themselves fiction, it makes the rest of the Watchmen appear by contrast relatively more realistic. If I were God and i didn't want humans to see the brushstrokes in my design of the universe I would make sure they had a propensity to make unrealistic representations of reality so by contrast my creation would appear that more credible. If I didn't want them to see my brushstrokes that is.

DOC MANHATTAN: FlaconX2 gets this right. I'll add that Manhattan clearly still has some human qualities, enough that he cares about Laurie and what happens to her, but now by the end almost paternally, (even though he stays young whiles she's aging) enough so that he's willing to kill one measly ginger to help seal up the stability of her world. He also didn't know about the squid attack until after the fact, and certainly doesn't care much about justice. You're not either existential or not, there are shades of gray in all disciplines. What Manhattan does is not illogical for him, for you and me maybe, but not him.

SQUID: As usual noobmike is squid crazy, (his mother was a Humboldt I think)Noob is right in pointing out the explanation for the artists and writers which makes sense to me, but he's also wrong about the comedian. The comedian isn't thrown through a loop on it's account because it's a giant squid. 'OMG he's using a giant psychic squid, the meaning of my life is over.' He's devastated by the revelation because the cynical foundation of his life is revealed (to him at least) to have been wrong. Veidt does seem to have created a scenario to save the world, something the comedian thought impossible, part of what made him cynical and apathetic. His whole philosophy is: The world is [frick]ed up and there's nothin we can do about it, might as well enjoy the ride. The Squid plot shows him the meaningfulness of what Veidt is doing, while simultaneously going far beyond any depravity the comedian ever considered engaging in. Thus the midlife crisis.

SQUID ATTACK RESOLUTION: I also agree that there is some illogic to the interpretation of how the world would react to this, though Veidt's further actions we don't know about afterward may effect his goal into viability. I do doubt that the russians in this time period would look to this as God's wrath against the Americans since their leadership are atheists at the time. Much of the population might be religious, but they're not likely to think their country to be in God's favor.

I've said it plenty of times before the movie is going to rock, probably the best comic movie to date, and for many years to come.


crappybumbum
crappybumbum - 2/28/2009, 3:30 PM
Oh wow I thought I was the only one
I got it on my birthday (2/24) and finished reading it the other day heh great great book! But yeah y'know I never thought of it that way. I wondered about Dr. Manhattan's perception of time and how he lived the future. Well at the point where he was at Veidt's fortress, there were tachyons present so he couldn't see what would've lied for him until after he left Veidt's fortress. So I'm guessing he didn't really know he was going to kill Rorshach until he realized he had to to keep unity in the world and end the Cold War. I honestly wonder how they are gonna end it without the squid. Maybe Snyder is gonna have a planned alien invasion (without squids) to unite the world against the foe or something. I also have a feeling that they are gonna make Ozymandias into the sole antagonist and make him look as if he wants to take over the world or something which would be a real shame and take away the great ending of Watchmen. Idk that's what I think.
TheMyth
TheMyth - 2/28/2009, 4:33 PM
@Crappybumbum: You are right I'd say as to how the movie will treat Ozy. I personally percieve him to be the real villain of the book, and have for years. The presence of tachyons in his fortress was something he had arranged from the get go in my mind even though it never comes out and says that, or ever hints at it. This was also another incident which revealed how flawed Manhattan's 'omniscience' was. Ozy is a genius, and it always felt as though he orcestrated so much more than he was even given credit for, especially when you read it a 2nd time, and a 3rd, and so on.

That said, I don't want him to be portrayed as the antagonist, rather each person form their own idea as the novel did when you first read it.
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 3/1/2009, 1:18 AM
re: crappybumbum and TheMyth

I don't think you're prediction is supported by what we've seen so far. The themes of the story are going to be the same as the GN.
FalconX2
FalconX2 - 3/1/2009, 8:10 PM
"BLACK FREIGHTER: Saying that this part of the story is unnecessary to the plot is like saying the background is unnecessary to the mona lisa."

That is a very good analogy... Wish I had thought of that. ;)

Also, another way to look at Dr Manhattan's inconsistencies is the use of Veidt's tachyon wave. One theory that was brought up in 'Watchmen and Philosophy' is the fact that if Doc M really does have future (and past) sight all at once, the tachyons could have actually caused an "all through time" affect on him. Essentially, because of that one place in Doc Ms existence that gets "muddled" it actually causes ripples for each of his temporal selves.

This theory comes from the fact that Laurie notes early on that Doc is acting weird. And the closer to (and eventually farther from) the moment with the tachyons he is more "normal".

This is a more "realistic" view as to why Doc acts the way he does throughout the novel. Watchmen and Philosophy says to think of it as a temporal acid trip. :)

While this does make sense (or at least as much sense as it can), I think honestly, Alan and Dave left much of Doc's abilities and character questionable more to promote an opinion on the philosophical traditions he is suppose to represent. They let logic suffer for personal expression, which tends to be Alan Moore's case much of the time. I just love his expression so often that I am more than willing to let the logic slide. :)
NoobMike
NoobMike - 3/2/2009, 11:51 AM
I think that this could interest some of you.

http://io9.com/5160960/how-911-changed-watchmen

http://io9.com/5162201/the-secret-origin-of-watchmens-world+building

http://io9.com/5162332/why-was-watchmen-supposed-to-be-unfilmable

http://io9.com/5162366/whats-this-about-a-squid-spoilers-no-seriously
zinext
zinext - 3/2/2009, 8:26 PM
Shaman that is so not fair to compare the watchmen story to current stories, its not the stories fault it took over 20 years to be in a movie. Anyways the only thing I have 2 say is Watchmen gives the best"what if superheros were in the real world" experience that Ive ever seen,Doc Manhattan is a superman that dont give a fkying F-word, The comedian is a crazy lunitc hero that see's life as a huge joke, Silk specture 2 is a 2nd generation hero that rather of not have been so,Night owl is the only true heartd crime fighter hero with a mid life crisis, Rorschach is a vigalante that has his own form of justice, or as I like to call him, batman with the punishers mentality, and then u have Veidt, The all knowing world smartest man with the master plan to unite humanity, So U have 5 Flawed individuals in a cold war type setting. In a sense the story really told it self, I cant called it flawed or illogical because the characters acted out of there own free will and personalites, witch is rare in comics since most heros has "codes" on how they conduct justice. As for the sqid, yea that was a lil strange, im not knocking it but it was a kinda out of place idea.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/3/2009, 9:12 AM
Wow, guys! I can't thank you guys enough for bring your thoughts to this review!!! If anyone "needs" to know WHY Watchmen is such a great graphic Novel, this is it right here. Look at how beautifull "relativity" is!!! We all read the same words and looked at the same pictures yet we gathered our own individual perception of it. And i don't want this to end. If you know anybody who read this GN, then ask them to bring us all their thoughts on it!!! This is amazing!!!

Noob, honestly after reading everybody's thoughts on this, it really doesn't sound like a debate at all LOL :P You have a beautifull and very logical point of view about the writers and artists on that island. I wished it was a bit more well explained in the novel rather than leaving it up to us to interpret it. I also agree with you in saying he should have cornered the "tv channel" market instead of letting all the others guide him. Maybe that would be part of the sequel LOL :P As for Comedian discovering the squid, Xaosjerk i think Noob meant what "discovering the squid" implied as you explained but he didn't elaborate on it. I'm pretty sure you guys are on the same page on that :) And thanks for those links noob, i'll check those out.

For the Black Freighter, i think that putting together everything that was said about it here, the comic amounts to a very important part of the novel indeed! Reading it separately, i could get a better glimps of it's purpose. Which means that making it animated and excluding it from the film was a great idea in the end. Xaosjerk, again you raise a great point about your "radiohead" analogy. The same could be said about Bjork. If all she had was that weird voice, we wouldn't be talking about her LOL :P

For Manhattan, i very much like FalconX2's point of view about his personality. His very purpose is to please everyone except himself. I missed that somehow... Which is probably what pushed him to lose interest in life. I had percieved him as a human that "became" existancial/godlike as a side-effect of having his power. But because i didn't percieve any kind of emotions from the character (aside from needing to please Laury), he just seemed like a "flawed" existancialist. And i also like your "butterfly effect" theory on the tachyon emissions affecting Manhattan's acknowledgements of events. Sounds very rationnal FalconX2.

Roar, i also think you are right in saying that: "He seeks to distance himself from human emotions and concerns because he believes that these are the things that lead to Wars and violence. But in doing so he grows arrogant and completely indifferent." That was a very precise analogy of his character. I just didn't see it because of the way he was portrayed. This is what makes the upcoming movie adaptation very anticipated IMO. To see how Snyder percieved the novel and to see the actors actually bring life to these roles. It could bring us a whole new view of the story that we might have not figured. But, like Noob would probably say, it could also be a disgrace to the source material if it's not accurately adapted. Luckely, there are more people who saw the movie that felt it was a great representation than otherwise.

Zinext, don't get me wrong. I wasn't comparing the "story" of Watchmen to the "story" of Independance Day, i was comparing their different outcome of the concept of unity. I feel that "ID4" had a more "logical" motivation towards unity than Moore's opinion. Other than that, these two stories are incomparable. But "unity" is timeless. If i was the same age i am today but read it when it came out, i would've had the same opinion. One "past" event IMO, isn't enough to bring world unity. A "clear and present threat" is mandatory. I do fully agree with you about "Watchmen giving the best"what if superheros were in the real world" experience that Ive ever seen". And depending on how Snyder filmed it, it could very well surpass TDK's vision as being the best "film" that incorporates superheroes in our everyday reality.
zinext
zinext - 3/3/2009, 10:45 PM
If u were the same age today??? shaman, how old are u if u dont mind me askin???
Shaman
Shaman - 3/4/2009, 7:18 AM
Let's just say that i was 6 years old when Watchmen was published LOL :P Not sure i would've understood this book back then at that age :P
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 3/4/2009, 9:19 AM
In some ways I think this movie was made for me by the universe specifically. Just for me. Everything I like in movies is in it. Sex, Action, detialed characterization, good dialogue, cool special effects, a godlike character(neo rocked), scifiness, length ( as important as girth,perfect move for me is like four hours)

RE: Shaman

good comments though I don't think noob meant the same thing I did about the squid, otherwise we wouldn't be arguing, clearly he's saying the squid element is necessary to make the plot device work, and I'm saying it isn't even though it should have stayed the same.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/4/2009, 11:27 AM
Well i was reffering to the comment he made about the comedian. He said:

"And I also believe that the comedian discovering the squid is what breaks him, not the fact of attacking NY or killing millions (after all he seems very comfortable with collateral damage all along)."

I'm pretty sure he meant the same thing as you did. Saying what broke him was his discovery of the squid, to me it meant "what it implied". He was comfortable with collateral damage but when he discovered the squid, he knew from that moment that "WAR", which is what he cherishes the most, would cease to exist. I think that's what Noob really meant with his comment but then again, he would have to enlighten us himself LOL :P
LastSon1027
LastSon1027 - 3/4/2009, 12:00 PM
I completely agree with you Shaman, The Tales of the Black Freighter is a useless piece of filler that bears no significance what-so-ever. I haven't read the rest of your article yet because I am currently reading Watchmen for the first time also and I wanted to get my own take before I read yours. But when I saw your review I couldn't help but find out what you thought of the Black Freighter. As I suspected we agree that the story could have been just as effective without it.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/4/2009, 12:26 PM
Yes well thanks to everyone here, i no longer feel that it is "useless" but i still agree that the story could have been told without it. But like Radiohead's music, it would have less depth than it did. Xaosjerk raised a good point with that one. But the movie itself will be better for the fact that the tale is excluded. To get a chance to see it integrally aside from the movie will bring more light to it's purpose i find. The very thing i hated about that story was that it was broken up in pieces, left and right. So the final visual version will be a good thing IMO.

Don't hesitate for a second to bring us your thoughts on the novel right here budy!!! Just as soon as you're done reading it that is LOL :))
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 3/4/2009, 1:57 PM
RE: shaman

I know it was comedian related, but I don't think the interpretation of the comedian that he doesn't care about killing people on any scale is correct. He is still a patriot, and the wholesale murder of millions of americans in his town is far beyond reproach for him I'm sure. He also is broken by believing it will work of course, it's a double whammy.
JamesH
JamesH - 3/4/2009, 7:01 PM
I juz finished reading the Novel 2 days ago and might have rushed it juz to be able to draw something with real weight and character for the contest here (its so easy to draw characters posing but its a different thing to nail their essence).

Anyhow as for the novel, i quite enjoyed it. I dont enjoy reading old novels coz of the art style but in this case, i didnt seem to mind. I have to agree that the Novel could have been told and had its message conveyed with or without TOTBF... but i guess it does add a cool factor into it. :)
LastSon1027
LastSon1027 - 3/5/2009, 5:31 AM
Yeah I think the story would have been better had it not been so scattered. But I plan on finishing Watchmen today so I'll let you know what I think.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/5/2009, 11:46 AM
xaosjerk- It's unsure as to how much information he found on that island. Maybe he didn't know where that squid would go. And judging from his character, if he knew the squid would hit NY, he wouldn't even bother coming back home. He'd go to bora bora or somethin. So obviously, he wasn't taken by the inevitable "american" deaths that were to occur in his near futur. He was definitly broke by the knowledge of his very purpose ending.
mwmcintyre
mwmcintyre - 3/5/2009, 12:41 PM
When I read the GN(recently), TOTBF seemed unrelated until the end when the paralells hit me over the head like a ton of bricks, explaining to me why Veidt does what he does.

For me Dr. M is emotionally detached because when you can reform reality to suit you and you know what is going to happen, life loses purpose and meaning. What is the point of striving if you know whether you are going to succeed. Why should you care what happens in the world when you can change it with a mere thought. He does care to an extent, which is why he kills Rorschach, because once the squid event has happened, revealing it to the world would only do more damage. Rorschach, however believes in the truth above all, he believes the best thing for the world is to strip away all the lies and expose the truth, no matter the consequences. I enjoyed the story because all the major characters had a very different viewpoint and yet they all were correct. Flawed, but correct.
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 3/5/2009, 5:27 PM
RE: Shaman

it is weird that he returns home, and that the mystic guy(maloch?) doesn't take off either (though he does have cancer, also I suppose comedian might know when it's gonna happen anyway, and only leave after he's maybe gotten his daughter out of the city) I'd have to fine tooth comb the GN again to really tell you some of this stuff for sure, and I loaned it to someone to read before the midnight showing tonight, so I can't just now, anyhow gonna be sweet! I'm changing this to going to be my #1 movie of all time, bar none, that's my prediction, it has all the elements I love in a movie, every god damn one. (well I mean all that could exist in a single movie and work, I love fantasy dragons and elves and trolls and crap, also super surreal stuff like fear and loathing, and comedy like the big labowski) The Dude(the royal We) would definitely approve of this movie, "Far out man, you don't mind if I smoke do you?"

Also, just tried to watch Hellboy 2, however I failed to have the endurance for that piece of CRAP! It was like watching a van dam movie mixed with the one liners from the star wars prequels with expensive special effects. This is exactly why we need Watchmen to do well, to say to Hollywood: "Special effects without good writing acting and directing are worth exactly shit, go die in a fire you pricks." Also the director of it is due to be doing "The Hobbit"!?!??!?! OMFG I have to assassinate him to prevent that travesty now, can.. not.. allow.. him.. to.. ruin.. Gloin.. Smaug.. Bilbo.. ARGG! We need Snyder to take over that project seriously, or give it back to Jackson.
NoobMike
NoobMike - 3/5/2009, 8:23 PM
xaosjerk.....

Moloch just hears a lot of nonsense from the comedian, he's drunk, depressed and broken and he can't piece anything together. I still believe it's the squid that breaks the comedian, but I know you think I'm crazy for it. Enjoy the screening!

And don't you dare talk bad about DelToro, Hellboy 2 was at least enjoyable, and have you seen Pan's labyrinth? that movie is incredible. Snyder in the hobbit, you sure love snyder, but no thanks.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/6/2009, 7:11 AM
mwmcintyre- I totally agree with you. Very good points.

xaosjerk- About Del Toro, i very much enjoyed Pan's labyrinth, Hellboy and Blade2 but i do have to agree with you on Hellboy2. After the great first movie he gave us, how on earth could he possibly massacre that franchise after the ground breaking success of the first one is totally beyond me. I do agree with Noob in saying that it was enjoyable but not near enough comparable to the first one. Luke Goss was the BEST par of that movie and i can't wait to see him in Top Cow's Magdalena motion picture. As for The Hobbit, i think Del toro still has a very good track reccord (more than most actually) i just hope he doesn't pull a hellboy 2 on this one. Why Peter Jackson isn't the director is illogical to me...

Noob... you mean to say that the "sight" of the squid is what made comedian "nuts" and not what the purpose of the squid was??? If that would have been the case, that's the only word that would have come out of his mouth when he got to molock's place... "Ssssquid, gi..giant...squid...giant..." Don't you think???
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 3/6/2009, 8:32 AM
NOOOOOOO..Hellboy 2 was class! What are you people doing with your eyes and ears! Sure its not too taxing on the old cerebral cortex but its not sposed to be...very disapointed in you both! And Pans Labrynth is a bona fide masterpiece..i think the Hobbit is in good hands
Shaman
Shaman - 3/6/2009, 10:57 AM
LMFAO!!!! Look Roar, as much as i "loved" Hellboy 2, my disapointment was just as palpable as yours is in us LOL :P It was good but it should have been great and even more so. It should have surpassed the first one but it didn't. Sorry buddy, i'm not hating the movie but i sure wish i could praise it! :)
mwmcintyre
mwmcintyre - 3/6/2009, 12:52 PM
Just saw the movie last night and, though I know some will rip my head off for this, I thought in a lot of ways what they replaced the squid with ultimately made more sense. First of all, it ties in an already existing plot element instead of using what comes off as something rather random in the book, and it would be scarier to the general populace because they already know exactly what this threat can do and it WOULD scare everybody shitless. Sorry to be vague, but I'm trying to avoid movie spoilers since a lot of people still might not have seen it yet.
Shaman
Shaman - 3/6/2009, 1:45 PM
Like myself LOL But i never mind spoilers LOL. Well i'm glad to hear it actually. Of course we are all patiently awaiting NoobMike's review of the movie... :))
NoobMike
NoobMike - 3/6/2009, 4:12 PM
Well Shaman, I'm off in a few minutes to see it... will write the review as soon as possible.

As far as the squid being random.... please read (reread) the graphic novel... it's not random it's referenced many times, not as the squid that will destroy the earth, but as the components of the plot, the missing artists, the center for transdimensional studies, the TotBF, etc.

And no, I don't think the comedian saw the squid, but the whole plot... cloning a human brain to make a squidlike monster that would project the nightmarish visions of artists into the brains of billions and killing millions at ground zero (cebter for transdimensional studies), to make an alien threat (which just happens to look like a squid) that would end all wars, that is what I think breaks him.
mwmcintyre
mwmcintyre - 3/6/2009, 4:47 PM
I'm not saying the plotpoint involving the squid was random or that he decided on it being a squid at the last minute, I'm just saying the vehicle of destruction being a squidlike creature seems random. as you say noobmike, "happens to look like a squid". I just don't see the signifigance of it being a squid instead of say a giant crab or a Godzilla type monster or even a large "alien" spaceship that crashes. I could think of several things I'm sure if I tried, but whatever I come up with seems like a bit of a stretch and doesn't really add anything to the story. I'm also not trying to insult the GN in any way. I also thought there were small things in LOTR that were improvements in storytelling in the movie over the book.
LastSon1027
LastSon1027 - 3/6/2009, 6:43 PM
So I finished Watchmen yesterday and I really enjoyed it. I also find myself agreeing with most of you analysis. First like I said before the Black Freighter was just filler to me. The thing that really got me though was by the end of the book I really wanted to see what happened with the guy in that story but it annoyed the piss out of me that the story kept getting interrupted and likewise kept interrupting the main story. So it will be neat to see it as a free standing story. Also I know a lot of people who think it was good idea to take the squid out but I liked the squid. I understand how it can work without the squid but I like it better with the squid in there so I am very interested to see how much I'm gonna like it without. Only time will tell. I'll post a user review tomorrow night or Sunday. Anyway good article Shaman.
xaosjerk
xaosjerk - 3/7/2009, 2:41 PM
I think even Snyder didn't mind the squid, but as he finally did say in an interview it had to be changed to create more screen time for other elements. Having the other ending made it possible to combine other scenes into the plot finales lead up. It's one of those compromises that happens as part of the idiosyncrasies of turning this into a film. They should have shown more dead bodies though I will say, though the director's cut will be the true movie anyhow.

Anyhow I did see the movie and to me it was just amazing, a pivotal film that will have prominent historical significance.

I think a few factors work against this being obvious though. One is that people that like comic book movies as they are are often not going to like this movie, it's too smart for them, too many shades of gray, too much characterization to action ratio, too much gore, nudity and sex, too much period music the young bloods won't care for.

All of these things are of course the things that make it amazing for me. When I think about any other comic movie but TDK and try to compare it to this it's just laughable, it's like doc Manhattan vs any other being in the watchmen universe(or in the real world porn industry). I don't think TDK holds much of a candle to this for me, but it's not something I put in the same realm as the x-men movies, spidey movies, Iron Man ect.

I'm certain I'll be watching this dozens of times in my life, it's just gonna happen, because it has so much depth and integrity. It really makes you feel like you personally know the characters by the end. It got me so deeply that when Doc was confronted by his ex-girlfriend with cancer I felt tears welling in my eyes.
MarkCassidy
MarkCassidy - 3/8/2009, 8:54 AM
Yeah i got emotional at certain points..even though i new everything that was going to happen. Thats why i never understand people saying Snyder is all style over substance..sure he added a bit more sex and violence than the comic but he kept the emotional story very much intact at the same time..and to be honest anyone that didnt enjoy the extra fight scenes and blood needs to stop being so stuffy and learn to have some fun. Ill prob get this now:

"Watchmen is not suppossed to be fun or entertaining, its sposed to be educational!"

I actually heard one of those morons over at talkback say this. I wonder if people realize how pretentious and ridiculous it sounds.
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